I have player who plans on taking the Leadership feat next level. This, in of itself, isn't an issue... The problem I'm seeing right now is that he has recently informed me that he wants to start his own philosophy/faith.
Right now, I don't know to much as to what this new faith will entail... beyond that he is basing it on a RL faith. Presumably, he will be looking to use his new followers and cohort as his starting congregation. Plus, he does have a map of the new "tabernacle" he wishes to build, drawn up.
What I am wondering about now, is if there are rule/guidelines out there for attracting new converts. Or, what kinds of exoeriences others may have had with this kind of thing in their games, such as pit falls or short comings.
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The knee-jerk reaction I have to this is that if he's basing it off of a real-life religion some of the other players may become offended or at least uncomfortable. Personally I'm not a very religious person in the least, but I have some very close friends that I greatly respect that practice some religions that are commonly made fun of. While I'm not part of those churches myself, I genuinely find it in very bad taste to bash any specific religion. Be careful of how this might make your other players feel.
Very much agreed. I can see this potentiality going south quick.
Hopefully I will know more this weekend, when we get together next.
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I would advise him to consider how effective he think the clerics, warpriests, paladins, inquisitors, oracles, and everyone else who remotely considers themselves a priest of some deity of philosophy and how well it actually works.
Most new religions really never gain any sizable traction.
At best, the way I would work this is that his followers (not his cohort) represent the amount of people he's convinced to believe his way. Whether he flavors it as some of thing really being in the know about what's going on, and some or brainwashed, or whatever the case may be...doesn't really matter. The amount of believers will be fixed at the number of followers, which is based on leadership score.
The real problem here is that there are already so many faiths and deities, what is he trying to start that isn't already represented by an existing faith? Further, the existing faiths don't have to demonstrate why people should follow them. They're established and their deific powers have been verified.
Your friend is basically asking to be the crazy guy who worships Banjo.
That could be a quick and clean option, by limiting the congregation to to his Leadership. Though, he may not be to keen on it.
Edit: Hey now... Holy Banjo is life and goodness... :oP
Well, in this case... it is a Witch who seeks to found their own philosophy. And as he rightly put it, a philosophy does not need a patron deity (see the Green Faith). Just like a Cleric does not need a deity.
I would advise him to consider how effective he think the clerics, warpriests, paladins, inquisitors, oracles, and everyone else who remotely considers themselves a priest of some deity of philosophy and how well it actually works.
Most new religions really never gain any sizable traction.
At best, the way I would work this is that his followers (not his cohort) represent the amount of people he's convinced to believe his way. Whether he flavors it as some of thing really being in the know about what's going on, and some or brainwashed, or whatever the case may be...doesn't really matter. The amount of believers will be fixed at the number of followers, which is based on leadership score.
The real problem here is that there are already so many faiths and deities, what is he trying to start that isn't already represented by an existing faith? Further, the existing faiths don't have to demonstrate why people should follow them. They're established and their deific powers have been verified.
Your friend is basically asking to be the crazy guy who worships Banjo.
Well, that would likely be why he is keeping aphilosophy as a side option.
There are several major philosophies that are not...technically... tied to religions. Diabolism, or the philosophy that "well, fire and brimestone sucks, but undamn it if the trains don't run on time in hell". There are also the Laws of Man, which is the atheist (or rather the "are the gods really that great?") philosophy. And then there is the Prophecies of Kalistrade, where a bunch of rich people got into a little club, and decided their weird stuff was the best way to get even more rich (although, admittedly, avoiding alcohol, drugs, adn sex does tend to keep you out of the troubles that tend to ruin great houses). And lets not forget the Glorious Endeavor (or "lets talk about eugenics!")
So there are plenty of ways for your player to start his little cult without having divine support.
Right, but what kind of philosophy can he really come up with that would be so radically different than the myriad of ones that already exist.
That could be a quick and clean option, by limiting the congregation to to his Leadership. Though, he may not be to keen on it.
Edit: Hey now... Holy Banjo is life and goodness... :oP
He may not like it, but it is very fair.
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Right, but what kind of philosophy can he really come up with that would be so radically different than the myriad of ones that already exist.
It doesn't need to be radically different, just better (or even differently) sold. There's always room for one more bar'n'grille near the football stadium, and there's always room for one more in-group of True Believers that are convinced that they (or at least their guru) has found the Correct Path to Enlightenment.
A bigger issue to me is that, while clerics can have philosophies, not all philosophies can necessarily have clerics. The power to cast "divine" spells needs to come from somewhere, after all, and if merely starting your own cult were enough to grant divine spells, Razmir would have them by the hogshead and wouldn't need to do all of this fake-casting nonsense. I can't really see Banjo being more effective a source for divine spells than Razmir, who can at least cast spells himself as proof of his "divine" power.
And the biggest issue of all is that this seems almost designed as an exercise in ticking someone off. While I definitely understand the temptation, for example, to name your new kitten "Fuzzy," short for "F--k you, Zoe", I can't help but feel that this is a bad idea in the long run.
Right, but what kind of philosophy can he really come up with that would be so radically different than the myriad of ones that already exist.
Whichever one gives him wine, women, and gold, usually.
But yeah, he doesn't necessarily need to have something unique, he just needs to have something appealing (communism among an oppressed lower class, for example) and to have a good force of personality. Cults of Personality were exceedingly common in the eras before our modern sense of nationalism.
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I say let him run with it. Starting a cult can be a great hook for a campaign drama. You get the opportunity for religious persecution, holy wars, ecclesiastical splits, apocalyptic prophecies, divine manifestations, the works!
Just make sure that whatever resource and support he gets from his followers, he is also RESPONSIBLE for things they do and that there is a give and take between upsides and downsides.
The Ultimate Campaign book has some rules and guidelines for constructing buildings and creating/founding organizations. It's probably worth a look through for what you're discussing here.
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From a game perspective, the biggest issue is what effects this will have on the world (if any) and what effects it will have on the rest of the party.
If this is just a personal goal for the player that the rest of the party doesn't care about it would be inappropriate to spend a lot in game time on it (unless perhaps the other players also had their own goal, but then you have a lot of game time where only one person is participating.)
If the cult doesn't have a whole lot of effect on the world (or any as far as mechanics are concerned) then you can to a large extent just let the player do what they want, even out of game. As long as they understand that no matter what they decide happens, it isn't going to have any meaningful effect on the politics of the world, won't provide any income or other benefits beyond leadership, or anything like that, then it doesn't matter an the player can have is fun.
This is of course with the caveat that the subject matter doesn't offend anyone. Using an in-game faith to mock the real faith of another player is obviously unacceptable.
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If the cult doesn't have a whole lot of effect on the world (or any as far as mechanics are concerned) then you can to a large extent just let the player do what they want, even out of game. As long as they understand that no matter what they decide happens, it isn't going to have any meaningful effect on the politics of the world, won't provide any income or other benefits beyond leadership, or anything like that, then it doesn't matter an the player can have is fun.
I think the player should get some kind of rolls to have the cult make a splash or have an impact. Because then it generates plot: like when the Inquisitor squad shows up to purge the heretics, or when the King decides he wants to co-opt the faith for his own politics, or when another member of the faith challenges the PC for leadership of it, etc. These are all interesting plot hooks that can be used to draw the other players into a larger story and get them to interact more with the game world.
If the cult doesn't have a whole lot of effect on the world (or any as far as mechanics are concerned) then you can to a large extent just let the player do what they want, even out of game. As long as they understand that no matter what they decide happens, it isn't going to have any meaningful effect on the politics of the world, won't provide any income or other benefits beyond leadership, or anything like that, then it doesn't matter an the player can have is fun.I think the player should get some kind of rolls to have the cult make a splash or have an impact. Because then it generates plot: like when the Inquisitor squad shows up to purge the heretics, or when the King decides he wants to co-opt the faith for his own politics, or when another member of the faith challenges the PC for leadership of it, etc. These are all interesting plot hooks that can be used to draw the other players into a larger story and get them to interact more with the game world.
If the other players are interested in all of that sure. If they aren't, letting one player hijack the whole story and make it all about them isn't cool.
The Ultimate Campaign book has some rules and guidelines for constructing buildings and creating/founding organizations. It's probably worth a look through for what you're discussing here.
yup... I have started milling about in UC for ideas for stuctures/organizations. The part I'm not to sure of, or comfortable, with is how organizations are handled... I.e. "I'll just hire some more to fill the ranks per these construction rules..."
I think the player should get some kind of rolls to have the cult make a splash or have an impact. Because then it generates plot: like when the Inquisitor squad shows up to purge the heretics, or when the King decides he wants to co-opt the faith for his own politics, or when another member of the faith challenges the PC for leadership of it, etc. These are all interesting plot hooks that can be used to draw the other players into a larger story and get them to interact more with the game world.
This is the kind of thing I am wondering about...
It is a Witch who is behind this... Do I base it off of K:Arcana? Diplomacy, Spellcraft or K:Religion?
I think the player should get some kind of rolls to have the cult make a splash or have an impact. Because then it generates plot: like when the Inquisitor squad shows up to purge the heretics, or when the King decides he wants to co-opt the faith for his own politics, or when another member of the faith challenges the PC for leadership of it, etc. These are all interesting plot hooks that can be used to draw the other players into a larger story and get them to interact more with the game world.This is the kind of thing I am wondering about...
It is a Witch who is behind this... Do I base it off of K:Arcana? Diplomacy, Spellcraft or K:Religion?
Offhand, I'd use Diplomacy for those sorts of interactions. A few of other skills my adjust or help adjudicate a situation but essentially go with Diplomacy when trying to sway intelligent folk towards (or away from) one particular direction.
As far as advice on how to handle this at a table, proselytizing and building a faith (established, heretical, or new cult) is essentially a downtime activity. If you are worried about the player's goals hijacking or crowding out the other players, a good GMing technique to limit the amount of table time it takes up is called Blue Booking. I'd recommend it in any case for the simple fact it will make bookkeeping a lot easier and to just set up a forum on a pbp site with a dice roller as an easy way to track everything.
On the other stuff, if your players are mature enough to handle the rank and file vanilla clerics and their deities (since darn near any of them easily push 'hot-button' issues...Erastil for instance), they should be able to handle a cleric pushing a philosophy\cult.
As a last note, not to hold your hand any further but the rules for downtime proselytism, as mentioned, are found in the Ultimate Campaign rules and in particular under the heading Recruitment for an Organization. As always, the rules are a guide-on, not an iron-clad contract. Don't hesitate to improvise or add a unforeseen hiccup to add to the challenge and to reward the invested player with more of a sense of accomplishment.