My Self |
As a paladin player, how do I fall? I'd like to have it be suitably epic, not (entirely) steal the spotlight from the GM's story, and have it make sense. The campaign is set in a GM-designed drow city and is meant to tie into another campaign that we concluded, and hasn't quite started, so I have time to alter the character to fit the motivations. What sort of Paladin would fall when surrounded by chaos and evil every day, all day? How so?
ngc7293 |
In my mind "Falling" is a Paladin's Gods way of saying you have screwed the pooch so many times you are incapable of using your powers properly. Until you show that you can, you are just a guy with a sword.
Of coarse there are so many threads on Paladins falling it's crazy.
Usually it's the GM that sets up the Fall as it is the player/character's folly.
Why would you want your character loose his powers? Surely a righteous Paladin can survive in a world of Drow. That should be the ultimate tribute to his god.
Baval |
Why do you want to fall?
Drow are completely and perversely evil. As one example, they have a thing called "Fleshcrafting" where they melt a still living person into a malleable goo and use it to forge items. The person is alive the entire time and even afterwards.
Being around evil that strong could easily make a Paladin break and resort to evil methods to exact "appropriate punishment to these filth"
So basically, just one day fall out of nowhere and blame it on a psychotic break. Just tear some poor Drow to shreds and mutilate whats left.
My Self |
Well, I'm interested in a 180-degree, full-tilt fall. Maybe even damnation feats. Antipaladin levels, and all that good (evil?) stuff. I'd find it fascinating to roleplay, and it would be a welcome change from the paladin in the previous, associated campaign, who was incredibly bland roleplay-wise. And figuring out why this person became evil: Was it "necessary"? Was it out of convenience?
Oh, and this particular GM likes tossing around lots of plot-controlling enemies who we are not meant to be able to fight by a long shot (CR+8), so as a Paladin, I'd have to compromise or ally with evil characters left and right to avoid being turned into a smoking crater or a head-kersploded corpse. I'll probably be able to find some CR-appropriate or lower enemies to beat up later on, though.
Hubaris |
You have a crisis of faith. You realize that the code you've upheld doesn't 'work' for this place. For every person you spare, for every person who you've given the benefit of the doubt, its come back to haunt you. That one Drow you let go? Thats a Dwarf family you find dead with their calling card. The look on the child's face as the Drow poison pumps through them, terrified and filled with dread, even in death is enough to break you.
You realize that while you would have the grace of your power, you think its better to finish the job without power and stop future problems.
You hit them and they get back up, I hit them and they stay down.
Obviously your code and your God (if you have one) would change things. Some ideas though.
While you may want a 'full-tilt' would it make sense with your character or is the gradual temptation more believable? I think determining this makes a huge difference.
Baval |
Well, I'm interested in a 180-degree, full-tilt fall. Maybe even damnation feats. Antipaladin levels, and all that good (evil?) stuff. I'd find it fascinating to roleplay, and it would be a welcome change from the paladin in the previous, associated campaign, who was incredibly bland roleplay-wise. And figuring out why this person became evil: Was it "necessary"? Was it out of convenience?
Oh, and this particular GM likes tossing around lots of enemies who we are not meant to be able to fight by a long shot (CR+8), so as a Paladin, I'd have to compromise or ally with evil characters left and right to avoid being turned into a smoking crater or a head-kersploded corpse.
Well like I said, its entirely possible that after seeing the horrors of a Drow city your character just decided that they deserved as bad as they gave, and turned to using their own methods against them. In your mind, youre still good, youre just disposing of the trash of the world in an appropriate way. If you have to work with a few less than savory individuals thats fine, as long as that filth gets eradicated in the end. Youre completely merciless to the Drow, and probably even betraying your "evil allies" as soon as its convenient, because theyre evil too and deserve to die, preferably painfully.
As a bonus, when you leave the Drow city (or even sometime during the campaign) you can have a sudden realization of all the terrible things youve done and that youve fallen as low as them, and atone and become a Paladin again.
wraithstrike |
You can go with the "by any means necessary approach". Instead of doing things the "good guy" way go with the easiest route to get solve the problem, even if it means innocent people get hurt. A "sacrifice the few to save the many" would help, but remember that your party(PC's not players) may not want to associate with you anymore if you are evil and/or if they feel like you have gone too far. However, the players may also have a problem with this.
If you just go far enough to be the anti-hero that would make you "not good", and not a paladin, but if you actually go chaotic evil the party would have a good reason not to trust you.
ngc7293 |
Well, I'm interested in a 180-degree, full-tilt fall. Maybe even damnation feats. Antipaladin levels, and all that good (evil?) stuff. I'd find it fascinating to roleplay, and it would be a welcome change from the paladin in the previous, associated campaign, who was incredibly bland roleplay-wise. And figuring out why this person became evil: Was it "necessary"? Was it out of convenience?
Is this an evil game? what are the Alignments of the rest of the players? Is the GM on board with a complete alignment change?
My Self |
My Self wrote:Well, I'm interested in a 180-degree, full-tilt fall. Maybe even damnation feats. Antipaladin levels, and all that good (evil?) stuff. I'd find it fascinating to roleplay, and it would be a welcome change from the paladin in the previous, associated campaign, who was incredibly bland roleplay-wise. And figuring out why this person became evil: Was it "necessary"? Was it out of convenience?Is this an evil game? what are the Alignments of the rest of the players? Is the GM on board with a complete alignment change?
Asking around, I think we've got LG and LE in our party already. GM has handled CE before, and so long as there isn't too much backstabbing, everything should be fine.
Baval |
@wraithstrike, not if he still thinks hes good. The party wouldnt like what hes become of course, but as long as they can see he still thinks hes on the side of good and sees them as allies they dont have to mistrust him. He would betray anyone he sees as evil, but in his deluded state he still doesnt see his friends as evil.
The only danger would be if they tried to stop him, but that can be solved in two ways:
1. talk with the party before hand and see if theyre ok with it and if their characters would reluctantly allow his methods. Hes likely their friend, so theyre not likely to just abandon him, especially if they have to work with evil either way
2. If they are likely to intervene, just have your character maintain enough of his sanity to never see his friends as "the bad guys". If they stop him from murdering someone, he grumbles angrily about it but he wont fight them over it.
Baval |
Staying Lawful would help your party trust you easier, but might not allow the same 180 turn you want. You certainly would have a hard time justifying my insanity route if you chose that path.
EDIT: Actually, looking at insinuator it would only hurt your partys trust. Insinuators code requires them to be selfish at all times, doing anything selfless makes them fall. Theyde be expecting you to backstab them or turn to the villains side at all times.
ngc7293 |
Asking around, I think we've got LG and LE in our party already. GM has handled CE before, and so long as there isn't too much backstabbing, everything should be fine.
I think you have been on here long enough to read about people's woes about being in a CE party. As long as you are adult about it no trouble should come from it. People always say that a Chaotic Evil game always ends badly. So hopefully your GM knows when things are going in the wrong direction and to correct things quickly.
Good Luck.
My Self |
So what sort of character would go CE insane-crazy? What sort of character would go LE? Would the character be frustrated at not being able to do anything significant to higher-level enemies? Or would they be lashing out at every possible moment (at evil people)? Would they be experienced and maybe jaded, or would they be naive? Is Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader a good/bad personality to base this upon? (minus the Hayden Christensen)
Baval |
Anakin/DV would be a good template for a non insinuator LE fall, yes. The Insinuators code to always be self serving is the issue to any character who wants any noble goal. The core of the insinuator is to gain power for himself, like the Emperor.
Your issue is that lofty goals are beyond you at this point (unless you want to take over the Drow city), your only available motive has to in some way relate to where youre stuck.
A CE character I have detailed above, just a character who is so enraged at the Drow that hes decided they all must die. A LE character could be one who has seen the evil of the Drow and decided he should do something about it, but lawfully. Maybe he wants to take over the city to try and steer them to the path of good, but he knows the Drow only respect cruelty and viciousness. So he justifies to himself that hes "only pretending to like this stuff" as he does terrible things.
Castilonium |
Here's a helpful guide to give you an idea of how to convincingly play Chaotic Evil, and what a character's reasons and justifications for being Chaotic Evil could be.
Hugo Rune |
Well, I'm interested in a 180-degree, full-tilt fall. Maybe even damnation feats. Antipaladin levels, and all that good (evil?) stuff. I'd find it fascinating to roleplay, and it would be a welcome change from the paladin in the previous, associated campaign, who was incredibly bland roleplay-wise. And figuring out why this person became evil: Was it "necessary"? Was it out of convenience?
Oh, and this particular GM likes tossing around lots of plot-controlling enemies who we are not meant to be able to fight by a long shot (CR+8), so as a Paladin, I'd have to compromise or ally with evil characters left and right to avoid being turned into a smoking crater or a head-kersploded corpse. I'll probably be able to find some CR-appropriate or lower enemies to beat up later on, though.
By GM fiat. Without their agreement you can fall easily but won't become an anti-paladin. Become to much of a disruption to the campaign and you might find your character the victim of a localised rock fall where only your character dies.
wraithstrike |
@wraithstrike, not if he still thinks hes good. The party wouldnt like what hes become of course, but as long as they can see he still thinks hes on the side of good and sees them as allies they dont have to mistrust him. He would betray anyone he sees as evil, but in his deluded state he still doesnt see his friends as evil.
The only danger would be if they tried to stop him, but that can be solved in two ways:
1. talk with the party before hand and see if theyre ok with it and if their characters would reluctantly allow his methods. Hes likely their friend, so theyre not likely to just abandon him, especially if they have to work with evil either way
2. If they are likely to intervene, just have your character maintain enough of his sanity to never see his friends as "the bad guys". If they stop him from murdering someone, he grumbles angrily about it but he wont fight them over it.
I agree that it varies by party. I was only saying what could happen, not what would happen.
Just a Mort |
Lets see...you slaughtered, then burnt down an entire town to stop the plague from spreading to the rest of the continent. You went to the frozen north to find a legendary sword to destroy the demonlord who was behind the plague. You picked up the sword, and it stole your soul. Congratulations, you're now an Antipaladin =)
MuertoXSky |
If High level paladin, burn the city to the ground, without thinking about children and innocents, assuming everyone is guilty.
If low level, extract revenge for something done to you.
Alternative: When you are about to level up, imagine yourself that you went crazy, take a level of barbarian and kill as much people as possible. This should change your aligment and, therefore, make you fall.