Wood elemental school, but no "wood spells"?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

Reading the Wizard Wood elemental school I noticed that it doesn't comprehend any of the emblematic "wood spells": Warp Wood, Shape Wood, Repel Wood... I understad that those are Druid spells, but also Entangle is, and it is included in the Wood Magic list. I mean, come on, it's called WOOD elemental school!

What's your idea about? Does this make any sense to you?


The Wood (and Metal) elemental schools are special, relative to Fire, Water, Earth, Air. This is because they gain access to the 1st level benefit:

Wood Magic:
Wood Magic: At 1st level, add the following spells to your wizard spell list at the listed spell level: 2nd—entangle, 3rd—tree shape, 4th—plant growth, 5th—command plants, 6th—tree stride, 7th—liveoak, 8th—transmute metal to wood, 9th—control plants.

And the parallel Metal Magic.

Normally, Wizards do not have the ability to modify their Wizard spell list, but the Wood (and Metal) schools do.

I think a Wizard's mere School choice expanding the already extremely versatile Wizard spell list is quite exceptional. Personally, the fact that Wood Elementalist Wizards do not gain a few Wood-related Druid-only spells does not bother me.

Silver Crusade

True, but then what's the point of including in the school spell list a bunch of wind-related spells, but not the classic wood-related ones? It just seems off topic with the theme of the school.


I agree—the Wood Mage should get at least one of those three spells. And I don't think "You're already getting a cool thing, don't complain that the cool thing doesn't make sense" is really a sensible answer here. A "wood wizard" should be able to control wood, not just plants.

Besides which, those spells don't even really match. Liveoak? You control wood, not treants. Command plants? Again, it's supposed to be an elemental school. If you wanted a Plant school, just make a Plant school—don't put it all here to give Wood the shaft.


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So, Warp Wood, Shape Wood, and Repel Wood actually have no place in the classic "Wood" element. Plant Growth is basically what Wood represents. I'll quote Wikipedia:

Wood Attributes wrote:
In Chinese Taoist thought, Wood attributes are considered to be strength and flexibility, as with bamboo. It is also associated with qualities of warmth, generosity, co-operation and idealism. The Wood person will be expansive, outgoing and socially conscious. The wood element is one that seeks ways to grow and expand. Wood heralds the beginning of life, springtime and buds, sensuality and fecundity. Wood needs moisture to thrive.

So destruction (warp), transformation (shape), and rejection (repel) are not Wood Element. Plant Growth basically summarizes the Wood Element, and it has no requirements whatsoever to involve "wood".

The Wood Element doesn't mean wood. It means a very specific part of (probably) Taoist philosophy.

Wood (Elemental School) wrote:
Wood represents flexibility, warmth, wind, generosity, cooperation, and idealism. Practitioners of this elemental magic often resemble druids in character and in the use of their magic.

Look familiar?


It seems like the rules are still taking it a bit too literally (since wood attributes in Taoist thought aren't just about literal plants, either), but fair enough. :P

I guess there is no real school for "elemental wood", then.


To add on/expand, Wind is quite closely associated with Wood Element... To lose the wind spells in favor of the Warp/Shape/Repel Spells mentioned would be DOUBLY counter to Wood Element flavor. There is no Air Element in 5 Elements system, Wind is aspect of Wood.

To be honest, there should have been made alternate "5 Elements" Fire, Earth, and Water schools, which better allude to the broader meanings/functions/associations of those elements, not just recycle those schools from the "standard" 4-elemental system... Whose Elemental schools function under a "stuff that a Fire/Earth/Water/Air Elemental would do" paradigm.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
It seems like the rules are still taking it a bit too literally (since wood attributes in Taoist thought aren't just about literal plants, either), but fair enough. :P

How so? Wood Element is not "just" about plants, yet plants, more specifically certain scenarios of plants, are central example of it... So appropriate spells in line with those (not just any happening to involve plants, but relevant modes of plants) would be an expected part of the school, along with other parts not using actual plants at all.

Quote:
I guess there is no real school for "elemental wood", then.

I guess you're expecting something else than Taoist 5-Elements system? i.e. Extending "standard" 4-element system rather than starting from a completely different paradigm (i.e. as explained in intro to 5 Elemental School system)

But I don't really blame you, because Paizo's re-usage of "standard" 4-elements schools (Fire, Earth, Water) as part of their 5-elements system honestly DOES give the impression that the new elements are an extension of those existing elements' system/paradigm... Had those elements been "re-imagined" within the 5-elements paradigm, that assumption would have been broken, and the system made more cohesive and compelling IMHO.


But there are no parts not using actual plants at all. That's my point. :P

I don't get why you're acting like I want to broke any assumptions. I'm just saying that there's no school to control wood like there is to control fire. The Fire school offers bonus spells by giving you access to spells with the subdomain—there should be a Wood spell school (by which I mean, since I apparently have to clarify, a spell school that controls physical wood) that offers bonus spells like those listed by the OP.

I didn't want to get into a big argument about Taoist beliefs here. I just wanted to be able to warp wood and stuff. And it would match the sister school, Metal, a lot better.

Silver Crusade

Ok, in the 5-elements system there is no Air, so wind and similar things are included into wood. But in PF there IS the Air Elemental School, so why include such spells and themes into the Wood School?
If I wanted to play a Wizard who could control wind and blast with air, I would have played an Air Wizard, not a Wood one.
As Kobold said, if I chose the Wood School, is because I want to control, bend, shape wood, not cast Alter Winds, regardless of the philosophy that inspired this school.

PS BTW, I didn't know about the origin of this school, so thank :) I learned a new thing today.

Dark Archive

Quote:
Wood Magic: At 1st level, add the following spells to your wizard spell list at the listed spell level: 2nd—entangle, 3rd—tree shape, 4th—plant growth, 5th—command plants, 6th—tree stride, 7th—liveoak, 8th—transmute metal to wood, 9th—control plants.

I'd be tempted to add at least;

barkskin, wall of thorns, repel plants, animate plants, shamble (from the Clerical Plant Domain), plus;
goodberry, shillelagh, warp wood, wood shape, diminish plants, snare, speak with plants, spike growth, antiplant shell, blight, ironwood, liveoak, transport via plants, changestaff and transmute metal to wood.

Other spells from non-core rulebook sources might also be suitable, such as burst of nettles or arboreal hammer from Ultimate Magic, or maybe snake staff from the Advanced Players Guide.

Another option might be to add a selection of appropriate CR plant creatures to the wood wizards summon monster list (perhaps requiring them to remove another creature from the list for each substitution).

Plus the usual option of creating some appropriate spells to suit, such as one that generates thorns that hurl themselves at distant targets and do damage like arrows, javelins or spears, or a ramped up single target or limited-target version of entangle that creates thicker wooden roots that entangle and constrict/damage foes (sort of like a wood-themed single-target or smaller-area black tentacles spell).

Following the other themes, spells that heal/repair (like make whole or restoration) or strengthen (bull's strength, endurance, etc.) might also fit, but the current game philosophy frowns on wizards having access to stuff like restoration.


As some people have commented above, the Wood element comes from the Taoist elemental system, specifically from China, Wu Xing. It is earth, fire, metal, water, and wood which is the system in Ultimate Magic. Wu Xing is used in many aspects of Chinese culture such as Feng Shui, Chinese medicine, and martial arts.

In Wu Xing, all of the elements are merely representative of different matter, organs/bodily functions, emotions, natural phenomenon, etc.

For wood, it represents anger, altruism, the tendons (flexibility and resilience), wind/sound, minerals, mana, acid, the mind, poison and health amongst other things.

The Japanese have something similar called Godai which has the air, earth, fire, water, and void.

Thus the true spell lists for Wu Xing and Godai are not 'element' related as one sees with western elemental beliefs.

I did do a spell list for both Wu Xing and Godai that my players are using for Jade Regent. If anyone would like a copy, drop me a message with your email address.


...again, the Wood Element School is specifically an aspect of the Taoist system, if your options include Wood then you don't have the option for Air. Your choices would be Water, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Wood. If you're mixing and matching school subsystems then sure, you can probably find one to better represent individual aspects of the Wood Element. But not controlling wood, as that's not part of the Wood Element (and I don't think any other school does it).

The school represents something very specific. That that's not what you want is irrelevant, what you want doesn't change what it is. Just because you want to walk into a barbershop and order a beer, a pizza, and a motorcycle, doesn't mean they'll sell them to you (or have them at all). If you really want a wizard school that controls wood, ask Paizo to make one. But the Wood Element school is not it.

Dark Archive

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
...again, the Wood Element School is specifically an aspect of the Taoist system,

And yet the Earth, Fire and Water Elementalist specialty schools from the Advanced Players Guide (p 142-143) deal primarily with the elements of earth, fire and water, *not* Taoist concepts like associating fire with flowers or water with time, so there's no real consistency to this idea, having two of five 'Chinese' elements based on Earth-Taoist associations and concepts, and the other three based on the actual physical elements for which they are named.

And then there's the pesky detail that the game is set in Golarion, in which Tao, Shinto and Buddhism are replaced by faiths and philosophies like Pao-Lung, Sangpotshi and Tamishigo, so Taoist concepts aren't necessarily relevant to the game anyway.

I'm not averse to there being elemental schools for faux-Asian wizards based on Taoist concepts, and not necessarily the pure elements of Earth, Fire, Metal, Water and Wood, but I'd prefer that they be written up for a fake-Earth and not the Golarion setting, and that all five of them be consistently written up, with a Taoist version of a Water Elementalist including spells that manipulate time like haste and slow and a Taoist Wood Elementalist that includes mind-affecting spells (since Wood is associated with mind, in that scheme).


The Pathfinder Metal school has damn near every metal themed spell in the game too and not particularly many spells that map to any of the attributes associated with metal in Taoism.


Even the five Platonic elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire, Aether) don't really reflect "component elements". They represented five states of mater; solid, liquid, gas, plasma, and the transition from matter to energy. The RPG concept of "earth, water, air, and fire as fundamental elements of composition of mater", supposedly drawn from Western "elemental systems", really is a complete bastardization of the source material. Both Eastern and Western "elemental system" were about representing qualities of the world.


I'm not trying to defend the rest of the notTaoist system they made, just Wood. It's clearly copied from Taoism (the description is almost word-for-word identical to Wikipedia) and it fits very well within the themes it purports to represent.

The rest of the system is a mess. Metal is just a collection of spells dealing with metal and that's bad. Rusting Grasp has no place in the Metal Element. Reusing Water, Fire, and Earth from unrelated systems is lazy. The whole system comes across as somewhat exploitative because of how slipshod it is. But Wood turned out alright. That it doesn't represent what you personally want is irrelevant, it (presumably) represents what they wanted it to represent.

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