How many hit points does a standard whip have? Nothing in the CRB common weapon hit points table seems to fit.
Equivalently, how thick is a standard whip? (Leather has 5 hp/inch.) Wikipedia provides lengths for various kinds of whip but not thicknesses AFAICT.
I can't find anything explicit, either, but that 5 hp/inch is a good starting point for a GM to make a reasonable ruling. Spell component pouches also have the same issue.
I know there's at least one person on the forums who actually makes whips. Help us, alexd1976! You're our only hope!
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Okay, I gave in and computed it from basic physics :-P
I approximate the leather part of the whip as a cylinder (this is OK because the diameter of the cylinder will equal the average diameter of the actual whip) and ignore the handle completely, as well as any special dangly bit on the end.
This site says the density of leather is 59 pounds per cubic foot. The PF equipment table says whips weigh 2 pounds. So the whip/cylinder has a volume of .034 cubic feet = 58.6 cubic inches. The volume of a cylinder is its length times pi/4 times thickness (diameter) squared.
It works out to diameter_in_inches = 2.5 / sqrt (length_in_feet):
3' => 1.44"
4' => 1.25"
5' => 1.11"
6' => 1.02"
7' => .94"
8' => .88"
9' => .83"
10' => .79"
11' => .75"
12' => .72"
etc.
Now if only we knew how long PF whips are... Wikipedia indicates bullwhips can be anything from 3' to 20' (and maybe more).
With a metal whip (yes, Virginia, they do exist in pathfinder), Drake, I would make the physically unrealistic assumption that the geometry was the same as with a standard whip, in particular the thickness, which gets you the HP if you know the material. For instance, for a mwk-but-not-magical Huge whip of living steel, which I just happen to be considering for a storm giant with Storm Warrior, HP = thickness of normal whip times 4 (for Huge) times 35 hp/in for living steel. (I dunno if whips of every metal are appropriate, but living steel seems to me like it should be nice and springy.)
Hey, alexd1976, while you're around....
I know there's at least one person on the forums who actually makes whips. Help us, alexd1976! You're our only hope!
Hrm... it's my brother that does it actually, I just assist.
Getting kangaroo leather in Canada is NOT easy.
Depends on the whip, but generally about one to one-and-a-half inches at the base (handle), then tapers off to the fall.
I would just say 5hp to sunder a whip and be done with it.
My calculations say a 5 hp (1" avg) whip is 6' long, not counting handle or dangly bit. Am I close?
My calculations say a 5 hp (1" avg) whip is 6' long, not counting handle or dangly bit. Am I close?
Going by the PRD, a whip has a reach of 15ft.
Given that it would have to wrap around the target to make a trip attempt, a pathfinder whip should be pretty long.
I was under the impression whips had reach 15...
Most of the ones we have made are 10+ feet. The fall (the single bit of leather on the end) can be pretty big (like a foot).
Whips are generally not as short as 6ft, I would say more like 8-12.
Thanks. You have set my mind at ease.
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Your math for a cylinder checks out. Figuring 15' reach plus a foot to wrap around an ankle for trip attacks, diameter comes out to 5/8" and thus about 3 hp.
A real whip is more like a section of a long cone - thicker near the handle and thinner at the supersonic tip. People are more likely to attempt to slash it near the tip, where the diameter would be thinner, and without trying to get too precise about the diameter at the tip or the position being attacked, it might be reasonable to presume that somewhere within a few feet of the business end the diameter is only 3/8" or 2 hp.
A metal whip will have greater hardness and hit points per inch, but would be also at least 8 times as dense and only 2.5 times the weight, so you could do the same work with a significantly thinner weapon - nearly a factor of 2 reduction in diameter.
With steel at 30 hp/inch and 5/16" or 3/16" diameter, you'd be talking about 10 hp or 6 hp for a 5 lb stinging whip. I would tend to use the lower number, but if you are that detailed keep in mind that breaking off the last 5' of a whip still leaves you with something that can reach 10'. It would be a houserule if you wanted to shorten the whip rather than make it completely useless.
RAW, no question you can sunder a whip with a slashing weapon, and the GM would certainly have every reason to rule a whip immune to bludgeoning and possibly piercing damage. I believe the earlier posts already have solved how many HP and how much hardness to give the whip RAW.
That out of the way, I could certainly understand a spot ruling that provides the whip increased effective hardness or HP if it is being wielded. Imagine a rope that's pulled taut. If the rope is struck by a sword, it has a good chance to be cut. Now imagine that rope uncoiled, tossed into the air, and cut at in the same manner. The effectiveness of the cut will be reduced because the rope will give and be swatted down rather than cut cleanly. The energy of the blow will not be transferred into the rope as efficiently.
A whip in use would behave somewhere between an uncoiled, loose rope and a taut rope.
Of course, it is much harder to get a good cut with good edge alignment on a moving target; that's why attacking the whip requires rolling CMB. I'm assuming the blow against a static whip and a moving whip make contact with the same effectiveness, which is a big assumption.
I'd imagine most whips are not rope though.
Rope is zero hardness and 2 hp. Magical enhancements add to both hardness and hp per +1. Rope is weak to sunder, but has a high break dc.
Also directed to Azten.
I used the example to explain how an object would respond to a force imparted upon it in the world, not to say ropes and whips are the same thing. Kangaroo leather is preferred for whips if I'm not mistaken.
Again, no question that a whip can be cut rules as written (RAW), but I am saying that per Rule Zero, I can see a spot rule that makes it much harder to sunder a whip that's in motion because it would recoil when hit making the blow less effective. And per Core Rules:
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer. (p. 174)
And then it is left to the GM's discretion whether or not the weapon can damage the object in question.
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Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer. (p. 174)Rope is zero hardness and 2 hp. Magical enhancements add to both hardness and hp per +1. Rope is weak to sunder, but has a high break dc.
That ineffective weapons bit is directed at the rules for attacking objects, specifically unattended objects, like doors and such.
It is my understanding that those rules are mostly ignored when damaging objects via the sunder combat maneuver, though I certainly could be mistaken there.
As for the weapon rules, I would assume that rope is the most comparable material. In this case, it's a leather rope, called a whip. I'd go with hardness 0, hp 2, and break DC 23.
A +1 whip is hardness 2, hp 12, and break DC remains the same.
At +2 the whip is hardness 4, hp 22, and so forth. A further +2 hardness and +10 hp with each enhancement bonus.
I don't think the leather material is appropriate here, as they are describing leather in a different format, such as that used for armor, clothing, saddles and so forth. If you look at the special materials, leather is strictly for making armors out of.
And regarding sunder on whips, the stock whip is considered a ranged weapon, so having an enemy close enough to sunder the whip seems like a failure anyway. If the enemy is wasting sunder attacks on your 1gp whip (stock whip is 1 gp only), then let them destroy it. Just bring extras, as it's a very cheap weapon.
If you want a more durable whip, increase your CMD to sunder, or take one of a couple classes that can increase your whip's durability (Bonded Wizard or Soul Forger Magnus).
That ineffective weapons bit is directed at the rules for attacking objects, specifically unattended objects, like doors and such.
Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer. (p. 174)
Sunder states: "If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally...."
Smashing an object states: "Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver. Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon."
Which means attacking an unattended object is sunder and that except for one using CMB vs AC instead of CMD, these aren't separate systems.
The rules for ineffective weapons are not under a section for unattended objects, but in the general section.
We'll agree to disagree about what the whip is made of, but might I recommend a video?
I'm not sure why you're trying to advise me on protecting a whip in combat, since I asked for no such advice and am not trying to. I just said that in the hypothetical situation OP described, I could easily understand a spot-ruling that a whip is harder to sever than the initial RAW would allow.
And since these sunder rules lead to absurd conclusions like a Str 22 fighter with a +2 longspear can't sunder a glass pane with his weapon unless the GM overrides RAW, these rules are *made* for a healthy application of Rule Zero.