So, something I saw brought up was certain Eastern Armors that have 0% arcane spell failure and 0 armor check penalty. The discussion was about if you could basically wear this with no drawbacks as an arcane caster. Consensus said yes but Mage Armor was generally better. This got me to thinking about if you could use the armor to gain some Ability bonuses but use Mage Armor for the actual armor bonus.
For example: You have a Spell Storing Haramaki +1 (so +2 armor bonus) and Mage Armor (+4 Armor Bonus). You now have a +4 Armor bonus and take a hit. Could the stored spell go off?
I know Bracers of Armor would specifically say no, but that's also a specific magic item and I'm reluctant to take a rule based solely on the functioning of one magic item. I looked at the section for magic armor and didn't notice a similar rule mentioned there or in the Mage Armor entry.
Yes, those armors are very nice for arcane casters.
For example: You have a Spell Storing Haramaki +1 (so +2 armor bonus) and Mage Armor (+4 Armor Bonus). You now have a +4 Armor bonus and take a hit. Could the stored spell go off?
Absolutely.
I know Bracers of Armor would specifically say no, but that's also a specific magic item and I'm reluctant to take a rule based solely on the functioning of one magic item. I looked at the section for magic armor and didn't notice a similar rule mentioned there or in the Mage Armor entry.
Your intuition is correct. That is a specific rule that only applies to bracers of armor; it has nothing to do with mage armor or mundane armor
~~~~~
So overall, yes, you can absolutely do this.
Yes, that combination works just fine. There are lots of old threads on the topic.
I did do a search, but mostly got side stuff like would the enhancement bonus on armor still take effect with Mage Armor. Maybe I needed to revise my search.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Make sure to check with your GM.
I don't allow this. I regret that Paizo ever created the haramaki (it should have been clothing, not armor, and therefore not eligible for armor enchantments).
A haramaki is basically a belly belt made of cloth, it closely resembles a cummerbund.
Logically speaking, if a person can wear a haramaki of Fortification, then they should be able to wear a shirt of Fortification or literally wear a cummerbund of Fortification. But we have rules explicitly preventing shirts and cummerbunds with armor enchantments, and then Paizo breaks its own rule by making the same stupid thing with a Japanese word.
Nonsense.
There is no reason to say "People of Varisia never figured out how to enchant a cummerbund of Fortification but people in a far away land with an exotic language that sounds cool figured it out and are now flooding the Varisian markets with the exact same stupid thing but with an exotic name, and yet, we STILL cannot duplicate their exotic magic and do it ourselves in our own lands."
Nonsense.
Ultimately, the haramaki is just cheese. Official cheese from Paizo. If you're going to allow it in the game, then you should allow pants and shirts and socks and cummerbunds to have the same armor enchantments. Let your wizard walk around with a +1 left sock of Spell Storing and a +4 smoking jacket and call it good - no exotic foreign languages needed.
There is no reason to say "People of Varisia never figured out how to enchant a cummerbund of Fortification but people in a far away land with an exotic language that sounds cool figured it out and are now flooding the Varisian markets with the exact same stupid thing but with an exotic name, and yet, we STILL cannot duplicate their exotic magic and do it ourselves in our own lands."Nonsense.
Well, if the Varisians did that, it would violate the DMCA and various trademark laws. Who knows how long that would get tied up in the court system? Besides all of the questions of which jurisdiction is it going to get tried in, what is the appeals process, etc, etc, etc. Lots of legal wrangling before you even get through all of the pre-trial motions!
Besides, according to the description it's more than just a cummerbund. It's a chainmail or plate-lined cummerbund. Actual armor bits inside the cloth.
DM_Blake : Then what's your opinion on Silken ceremonial armor and Armored kilts?
As to "haramaki is basically a belly belt made of cloth", your dropping the "lined with chainmail or articulated metal plates". Most cummerbunds and shirts don't have either. ;)
As to your People of Varisia question, I think their version in the kilt.
OldSkoolRPG: We already had the armor kilt, so not seeing the weeaboo part. The only issue I saw with the eastern flavored equipment was they tended to low ball the prices. [I fixed some already]
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Armored Kilt is debated, often.
My reading of the RAW is that is increases the type of your base armor and adds +1 AC. It doesn't add any special properties and they won't stack because putting on the kilt augments the original armor.
Not every GM views them this way, expect table variance.
DM_Blake : Then what's your opinion on Silken ceremonial armor and Armored kilts?
As to "haramaki is basically a belly belt made of cloth", your dropping the "lined with chainmail or articulated metal plates". Most cummerbunds and shirts don't have either. ;)
See, that's part of the problem. Pathfinder redefined it.
If it really is chainmail, then why not make it AC 5, or 4 like a chain shirt.
If you go far enough back in Japanese history, a haramaki does look like armor. But nobody looks at that ancient haramaki and says "Oh, yeah, it's AC 0 and has no Arcane Failure %". It's obviously armor, worth more than AC0, and should have similar arcane failure as other similar armors. I doubt anybody would make that mistake except a Japanophile munchkin which the Pathfinder designers are not. Much.
Since they didn't design it like armor, they must be looking at the modern cummerbund haramaki. Which is never made with chain or plates. That version, like the cummerbund, deserves to be AC 0 with no arcane failure, but like the cummerbund, it should be treated as clothing, not armor.
From a game balance perspective, having wizards (etc.) blow their spells if they wear armor is intended to create a little bit of game balance. Keeping their AC and HP low enough that, if you can get to them, you can kill them quick - if you're lucky you might do it before they hit their "I Win" button spells. The haramaki gives them some exotic cheese to break that little bit of balance. That's the last thing the masters of the universe need.
The problem is Haramaki is two things. It is a Japanese cummerbund, and a form of Japanese armor that closed in the back.
The ancient armor should probably just be a Lamellar cuirass.
I suspect that someone came across Haramiki as being Japanese armor, and found the cummerbund, and then tried to come up with stats for an armored cummerbund.
If you had to come up with armored cummerbund stats, I guess those aren't bad.
I don't think it is terribly game breaking, wizard AC by the time wizards become a problem is pretty much irrelevant, and I think the ceremonial silk armor is pretty appropriately designed, and it has the same mechanics (except price difference.)
The problem is Haramaki is two things. It is a Japanese cummerbund, and a form of Japanese armor that closed in the back.
The ancient armor should probably just be a Lamellar cuirass.
I suspect that someone came across Haramiki as being Japanese armor, and found the cummerbund, and then tried to come up with stats for an armored cummerbund.
If you had to come up with armored cummerbund stats, I guess those aren't bad.
I don't think it is terribly game breaking, wizard AC by the time wizards become a problem is pretty much irrelevant, and I think the ceremonial silk armor is pretty appropriately designed, and it has the same mechanics (except price difference.)
Yes, a haramaki should just be something like a chain shirt or lamellar reflavored but mechanically the same. A Katana should just be a longsword reflavored but mechanically the same. A nunchaku should just be a light flail reflavored but mechanically the same. So on and so forth. But someone wanted every eastern weapon and set of armor to be distinct from its western equivalent which already existed.
Then you have stupid things like the kusarigama and the kyoketsu-shoge that no one can even figure out how they are supposed to work.
Armored Kilt is debated, often.
My reading of the RAW is that is increases the type of your base armor and adds +1 AC. It doesn't add any special properties and they won't stack because putting on the kilt augments the original armor.
Not every GM views them this way, expect table variance.
My point with the kilt is they didn't exactly reinvent the wheel with the haramaki/silk ceremonial armors. They just made a version of the kilt that people don't have to debate over.
DM_Blake: I don't see the huge buff to the "the masters of the universe". It gives a minor buff at lower levels and at mid levels a slightly alternative to bracers of armor and at high levels if gives nothing really.
OldSkoolRPG: Why pick on the eastern items? The same 'reflavored' argument can be used for a majority of the weapon list.
On why they didn't reflavor: It often doesn't work. That light flail isn't a monk weapon and it made sense that monks could flurry with a nunchaku. For the katana, bastard sword would be a closer equivalent than longsword. I wouldn't have been upset with this being a reflavor but I think it works better as a new weapon as this keeps the swords separate. It makes more sense to me that a samurai wouldn't be able to use a bastard sword as well as he could a katana.
As for as "stupid things", again, why only eastern? How many posts did the scorpion whip have? There is plenty of badly worded things outside that group.
I mean really, I never hear people say 'the Atlatl is just a javelin, why not reflavor it' and "the Gladius, Throwing shield and Hooked axe are so weeaboo.' It seems anything eastern just get discrimination for some reason.
Armored Kilt is debated, often.
My reading of the RAW is that is increases the type of your base armor and adds +1 AC. It doesn't add any special properties and they won't stack because putting on the kilt augments the original armor.
Not every GM views them this way, expect table variance.
My point with the kilt is they didn't exactly reinvent the wheel with the haramaki/silk ceremonial armors. They just made a version of the kilt that people don't have to debate over.
DM_Blake: I don't see the huge buff to the "the masters of the universe". It gives a minor buff at lower levels and at mid levels a slightly alternative to bracers of armor and at high levels if gives nothing really.
OldSkoolRPG: Why pick on the eastern items? The same 'reflavored' argument can be used for a majority of the weapon list.
On why they didn't reflavor: It often doesn't work. That light flail isn't a monk weapon and it made sense that monks could flurry with a nunchaku. For the katana, bastard sword would be a closer equivalent than longsword. I wouldn't have been upset with this being a reflavor but I think it works better as a new weapon as this keeps the swords separate. It makes more sense to me that a samurai wouldn't be able to use a bastard sword as well as he could a katana.
As for as "stupid things", again, why only eastern? How many posts did the scorpion whip have? There is plenty of badly worded things outside that group.
I mean really, I never hear people say 'the Atlatl is just a javelin, why not reflavor it' and "the Gladius, Throwing shield and Hooked axe are so weeaboo.' It seems anything eastern just get discrimination for some reason.
It is just more obvious and more often with respect to eastern items. Yes there are other items here and there but this applies to nearly every eastern item.
*shrug* Myself, I rather like the new options the eastern equipment brought. It brought some needed variety to monk weapons and with the unchained monk being able to use them all it gives plenty of new options. It gives weapon monks a nice boost.
Now could they have condensed things a bit and tightened up the wording? I can say that of most sections of the game unfortunately.
On the armors: I also rather like the haramaki/silk ceremonial armors too. It adds something new to the mix and isn't overpowered in any way. It gives every class the ability to wear armor [except monk]. It also adds options for those with high dex scores since they have no Maximum
Dex Bonus.
On the other armors, the Lamellar's where a nice addition. the rest weren't needed but I don't mind that they are there.
*shrug* Myself, I rather like the new options the eastern equipment brought. It brought some needed variety to monk weapons and with the unchained monk being able to use them all it gives plenty of new options. It gives weapon monks a nice boost.
Now could they have condensed things a bit and tightened up the wording? I can say that of most sections of the game unfortunately.
On the armors: I also rather like the haramaki/silk ceremonial armors too. It adds something new to the mix and isn't overpowered in any way. It gives every class the ability to wear armor [except monk]. It also adds options for those with high dex scores since they have no Maximum
Dex Bonus.On the other armors, the Lamellar's where a nice addition. the rest weren't needed but I don't mind that they are there.
I'm a big fan of rules light systems. So that is probably why I feel the way I do about the choice to include all of these distinctions.But that just comes down to differing play style preferences. I know, I know, why in the world am I playing Pathfinder if I don't like rules heavy systems lol? The rest of my game group likes it so that is what we play.
I prefer Quilted Cloth due to its DR ability, if only the AC bonus didn't suck.
Let me chime in here and add my voice to the growing chorus against several items like the haramaki, armored kilt and silken ceremonial armor which seem to be specifically designed to cheese the armor system for wizards.
Wizards already have plenty of nice tous without being handed a cheesy way to get armor properties without paying the spell failure price.
It also allows insane DEX - dumped STR characters the same flavor of cheese to avoid max dex issues.
I just avoid these issues by ignoring them. None of my current players seems obsessed enough with cheese to go digging for oriental solutions for their characters, so I just don't go there, and don't have to actually ban anything. But I remain convinced that some items just ought not to exist. Like that Asian-style hat that blocks criticals. No, don't get me started. <g>
Like that Asian-style hat that blocks criticals. <g>
You mean the dwarven boulder helmet? Cuz that's the only head equipment I can think of that affects crits. There's a magic egyptian crown but as far as I know we're talking mundane equipment.
As to wizard cheese: Look at Bracers of armor once. You'll then see that the 'cheese' the armor gives is that a wizard can get the ability to take flat gp cost enchants. For that they trade having a lower max AC than bracers. Seems fair.
Dex characters: Cheese there too? Not really if you ACTUALLY look at it and similar items. Bracers of Armor could already give you a higher AC though they are a bit more expensive and you can't get a full +5 plus another 5 in abilities. So it compared nicely in my eyes, as neither is clearly superior which to me makes them a pretty balance option.
OldSkoolRPG: I can totally understand that, you prefer less and I prefer more. Both ways are cool. I was curious what it was about eastern weapons that bothered you but since it's an across the board thing then that answered everything. Happy gaming! ;)
Like that Asian-style hat that blocks criticals. <g>You mean the dwarven boulder helmet? Cuz that's the only head equipment I can think of that affects crits. There's a magic egyptian crown but as far as I know we're talking mundane equipment.
...
I think he is referring to the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.
Yeah, that's the one. When an item is so good that everybody wants one (regardless of how ridiculous they look) then maybe it's just too good.
Maybe I'm just peeved that all these items from the "exotic east" are so, well, exotic. They do things that we don't expect their class of item to do. That's why they don't "feel right" to some folks. You don't expect armor to have an armor bonus of +0, or to lack a max dex or spell failure score. It just feels wrong.
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier: Ah, yeah not from the eastern section. [ultimate equipment so different book]. It popular because it used an up till then little used bonus called luck. After that a nifty trait came out that lets you add 1 to all your luck bonuses. So blame the trait since when it was made it wasn't "so good that everybody wants one".
On the armor, I think I've shown that they actually aren't "so good that everybody wants one". They are competitive with bracers of armor. Just doing something new or unique isn't bad in and of itself unless change itself upsets you. And for clarification sake, the armors have a bonus of 1 not 0.
Now on the lack a max dex or spell failure score... Have you played 3.5? The game pathfinder is based on? If so, you SHOULD expect those things.
Dueling Cloak, no max dex.
Gnome Twist Cloth, no max dex.
Thistledown Padded, no spell failure.