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For what it's worth, I have an 18 CON healing focused Oradin. This character has been brought to single digits repeatedly without ever taking direct melee hits. In The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment this character got taken to single digits 3 times by the **REDACTED**. This would have been a TPK if the Oradin wasn't built the way it was.
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while your table stares at you and rolls their eyes
They are welcome to cast whatever dispersions they want. I have yet to play a character that could not contribute and I tend to be pragmatic about my character's faults. My level 8 Boracle(lore) with an AC of 10, a Con of 12, and all FCB going to skill points has been my most effectively cooperative character to date despite his inherent lack of defense.
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ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
goElf druid with an animal companion. Buff up the companion, set it to "Serve" a party member, pop a bottle of wine an a picinic basket and wait by the entrace to the dungeon.
And confront the group that inevitably arrives to ambush the party on their way out by yourself.
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ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 18 CON or you will die
gowhile your table stares at you and rolls their eyes
ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
go
Its hard to tell if your sarcasm is meant to be tongue-in-cheek or confrontational. If the former, an emoticon can go a long way to clarify the intent.
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And confront the group that inevitably arrives to ambush the party on their way out by yourself.ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
goElf druid with an animal companion. Buff up the companion, set it to "Serve" a party member, pop a bottle of wine an a picinic basket and wait by the entrace to the dungeon.
Thats who the picinics for :)
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ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
goElf druid with an animal companion. Buff up the companion, set it to "Serve" a party member, pop a bottle of wine an a picinic basket and wait by the entrance to the dungeon.
heh
and then just hand that other party member your character sheet and then play some candy crush while accruing that sweet sweet XP and PP
mmm candy
okay good thread all good effort team
our work is done here
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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And confront the group that inevitably arrives to ambush the party on their way out by yourself.ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
goElf druid with an animal companion. Buff up the companion, set it to "Serve" a party member, pop a bottle of wine an a picinic basket and wait by the entrace to the dungeon.
Actually my one character can be in the Grand Lodge and complete an entire scenario while sitting there.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Thats who the picinics for :)And confront the group that inevitably arrives to ambush the party on their way out by yourself.ok so everyone go build your pfs characters with 5 CON to show you can do it
goElf druid with an animal companion. Buff up the companion, set it to "Serve" a party member, pop a bottle of wine an a picinic basket and wait by the entrace to the dungeon.
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My experience has been that having the right item more often saves a life than HP. 1 AC is strictly ok, negating the Intensified Shocking Grasp crit priceless. (There are a number of other items like this, IMO - but most are for saves instead). A good rule of thumb is the suggestion that you spend as about 45% of your gold on defense, 45% on offense, and 10% on consumables.
I actually disagree with that pretty strenuously. Far more gold should be spent on defense than on offense.
The character abilities/feats are generally far more efficiently spent on offense - so that's where you should get your offense.
Wealth is generally far more efficiently spent on defense - so that's where you should get your defense.
It's because there just aren't many offense slots. There is your weapon and your primary stat (which might ALSO add to defense if its Dex/Con/Wis), and maybe 1-2 lesser items. (probably gloves of some sort eventually)
For defense there is armor/cloak/necklace/ring of prot/jingasa/rose ioun/stat up item(s)/maybe a shield/maybe 1-2 lesser items - since it's more spread out it's much more efficiently spent.
You should generally spend 2x as much wealth on defense as you do on offense.
I will say - the above mentioned 50/50 between offense spending & defense - while still far too low for my taste - is better than many I've seen - people not spending enough on defensive items leads to far more PFS glass cannons past the first couple levels than those starting with a 10 Con.
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Designer
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This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFS
Random personal experience with something very similar: In a 3.5 organized play situation, there was an elf wizard with 6 Con who multiclassed into cleric (first level was wizard though) and was going mystic theurge. He somehow survived to level 6 (with 14 hp) and then wound up at my table. I was astounded, as this was the first time I met the character. I told him I'm not sure what he was doing, but it must be working, but nonetheless, I was terrified that he would die from an AoE. He said it was fine. I discovered what he was doing soon enough: for one thing, he was overleveled compared to the other PCs (though they still had way more hp), for another, he never did anything useful (even compared to a level 3 wizard without any cleric levels), so nothing wanted to target him because the other PCs were contributing. He survived encounter after encounter without a scratch due to this, until he was parked next to the two psions in the last encounter and the cleric dropped a flame strike, intending to hit the psions and incidentally hitting the elf, with pretty high rolls on the damage. He saved and died from full hp. All but one player demanded that they all chip in for a raise (the elf's share would have covered it on his own).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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every scenario takes place within one mile of the grand lodge
Nope the distance on my one character is nigh infinite. In fact its possibly the most optimized route to take since I can't exactly slip wealth for one character between two without a drastic drop in effectiveness in combat capabilities.
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so if I were a new player wondering about my CON score
what should I take from that story
No more than any other other anecdote. It just goes to show that no one way to build a character is the end all, be all. You should build a character that makes you happy and go from there. Mistakes are inevitable, so don't be overly concerned about a poor choice. Stick to the theme of your character, try to maximize what they are good at and minimize the effect of what they aren't and JUST HAVE FUN! Take other player's "advice" with a grain of salt. Some are helpful, some not so much.
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So what I gather from these six pages of discussion is that:
Live and learn, am I right?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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So what I gather from these six pages of discussion is that:
A good Con score helps, but is not necessary Likewise, a low Con score is unwanted but not terrible, especially for some builds and playstyles Crits are deadly. There are crits where a better Con score would not have made a difference Crits are not the only ways to die Live and learn, am I right?
You forgot:
Failing a save vs. Stinking Cloud is extremely annoying.
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Con helps with
Fort saves (which can kill you, take you out of the fight, or render you unable to act, which can kill you)
Having more HP, so you don't die
Having a few more effective Hp before you die, so you don't die.
Most importantly for melee, makes it so that you don't have to retreat as often so you don't loose your entire round running away... if you even can. An archer can contribute from a strait line 100 feet away, a caster can contribute from around a corner (or even through a wall) , Melee has to be right there to contribute, and running away can expose the squishies.
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Personally, I find that the +1 you get from maxing your casting stat at first level is underwhelming for what it costs your character at build time. I'd rather put 17 + racial, and then pop it up to 18 at 4. Sure, you will miss out on 'max over-power' at level 8, but that also leaves room for an odd con to boost at 8.
This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFSRandom personal experience with something very similar: In a 3.5 organized play situation, there was an elf wizard with 6 Con who multiclassed into cleric (first level was wizard though) and was going mystic theurge. He somehow survived to level 6 (with 14 hp) and then wound up at my table. I was astounded, as this was the first time I met the character. I told him I'm not sure what he was doing, but it must be working, but nonetheless, I was terrified that he would die from an AoE. He said it was fine. I discovered what he was doing soon enough: for one thing, he was overleveled compared to the other PCs (though they still had way more hp), for another, he never did anything useful (even compared to a level 3 wizard without any cleric levels), so nothing wanted to target him because the other PCs were contributing. He survived encounter after encounter without a scratch due to this, until he was parked next to the two psions in the last encounter and the cleric dropped a flame strike, intending to hit the psions and incidentally hitting the elf, with pretty high rolls on the damage. He saved and died from full hp. All but one player demanded that they all chip in for a raise (the elf's share would have covered it on his own).
I've seen quite a few players fall in our area. On the other hand as someone rather snarkly remarked we don't get many permanent deaths, because when someone goes down it's almost universal that players chip in for the raise. On the other hand if we had a player like this whom for the only reason for his survival up to the point of his death was that he was an absolute dead weight to his party, I'm not sure that anyone would have contributed a copper.
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No more than any other other anecdote. It just goes to show that no one way to build a character is the end all, be all. You should build a character that makes you happy and go from there. Mistakes are inevitable, so don't be overly concerned about a poor choice. Stick to the theme of your character, try to maximize what they are good at and minimize the effect of what they aren't and JUST HAVE FUN! Take other player's "advice" with a grain of salt. Some are helpful, some not so much.so if I were a new player wondering about my CON score
what should I take from that story
I took it more as ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFSRandom personal experience with something very similar: In a 3.5 organized play situation, there was an elf wizard with 6 Con who multiclassed into cleric (first level was wizard though) and was going mystic theurge. He somehow survived to level 6 (with 14 hp) and then wound up at my table. I was astounded, as this was the first time I met the character. I told him I'm not sure what he was doing, but it must be working, but nonetheless, I was terrified that he would die from an AoE. He said it was fine. I discovered what he was doing soon enough: for one thing, he was overleveled compared to the other PCs (though they still had way more hp), for another, he never did anything useful (even compared to a level 3 wizard without any cleric levels), so nothing wanted to target him because the other PCs were contributing. He survived encounter after encounter without a scratch due to this, until he was parked next to the two psions in the last encounter and the cleric dropped a flame strike, intending to hit the psions and incidentally hitting the elf, with pretty high rolls on the damage. He saved and died from full hp. All but one player demanded that they all chip in for a raise (the elf's share would have covered it on his own).
That's my kind of con.
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I had theorycrafted Frailleaf, a 4 CON elf (including GM Credit for the -1 penalty). Lame backstory about proving all of his healthier friends that 'he could adventure too- -who are you to say what I can and can't do?'
Monk 2, Paladin 3, all other stats 15 or higher. Good AC, Great Saves, Evasion, immunity to diseases, but some part of me always realized that running it headlong into one unlucky hit or some sort of incidental damage (maybe a 30 foot fall?) could take him from 12 to -4.
And that's a pretty awful thing to do to the rest of the party who was counting on another party member being present.
So I rebuilt it into a 20-CON gnome ranger.
(@Nosig: She never died (though she did get put to -16 once).)
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I will say - the above mentioned 50/50 between offense spending & defense - while still far too low for my taste - is better than many I've seen - people not spending enough on defensive items leads to far more PFS glass cannons past the first couple levels than those starting with a 10 Con.
With Kahel, I've spent more on 'miscellaneous' then offense so far. Which doesn't take much. My two big purchases so far have been a +1 mithral chain shirt and a handy haversack. The next one planned is a +2 constitution belt.
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This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFS
You could run a Con 5 character and be plenty survivable AND helpful to the group.
Animal Companions, for example, are a great way that a lacking HP character and provide frontline support.
A character that focuses on "out of combat" abilities and just hides in the presence of danger could also be useful (provided that the party has plenty of in-combat specialists). Mind you, they'd have to be very good at staying away from combat...
And then, of course, a character with already high HP could sport low Con and be a backfield version of the typical class. A Con 5 barbarian, in example, would still be at 9 HP (10 with favored class) at level 1. The main loss would be rounds of rage. Just have the barbarian focus on ranged attacks (like a throwing barbarian or one with a bow) and you'd probably be fine.
Anyway, as for HP and glass cannons, the key is that in pathfinder, not taking reduced (or no) damage can be just as effective as having lots of hit points. A PC that can go incorporeal, spam sanctuary, charm, create miss chances, and so on. Unlike a MMORPG, pathfinder isn't just about HP and there are lots of ways to both die and to ignore/reduce damage.
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This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFSRandom personal experience with something very similar: In a 3.5 organized play situation, there was an elf wizard with 6 Con who multiclassed into cleric (first level was wizard though) and was going mystic theurge. He somehow survived to level 6 (with 14 hp) and then wound up at my table. I was astounded, as this was the first time I met the character. I told him I'm not sure what he was doing, but it must be working, but nonetheless, I was terrified that he would die from an AoE. He said it was fine. I discovered what he was doing soon enough: for one thing, he was overleveled compared to the other PCs (though they still had way more hp), for another, he never did anything useful (even compared to a level 3 wizard without any cleric levels), so nothing wanted to target him because the other PCs were contributing. He survived encounter after encounter without a scratch due to this, until he was parked next to the two psions in the last encounter and the cleric dropped a flame strike, intending to hit the psions and incidentally hitting the elf, with pretty high rolls on the damage. He saved and died from full hp. All but one player demanded that they all chip in for a raise (the elf's share would have covered it on his own).
Unless his out of combat contributions were a make or break kind of deal, I'd like as not have refused to pay for the elf's Raise Dead. While this might be considered a dick move, the guy's character wasn't actually contributing.
Mind you, back in 2nd edition I've played fighter/mage builds with crap hit points and wizards with more hit points then the frontline fighters. But that was more to do with having to roll your hit die at level 1. And even with max hit points, a fighter/mage only had 7 HP at level 1 without high a con score.
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Mind you, back in 2nd edition I've played fighter/mage builds with crap hit points and wizards with more hit points then the frontline fighters. But that was more to do with having to roll your hit die at level 1. And even with max hit points, a fighter/mage only had 7 HP at level 1 without high a con score.
I really miss rolling hit dice. Oh, and rolling stats prior to selecting your class.
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I really miss rolling hit dice. Oh, and rolling stats prior to selecting your class.
Mind you, back in 2nd edition I've played fighter/mage builds with crap hit points and wizards with more hit points then the frontline fighters. But that was more to do with having to roll your hit die at level 1. And even with max hit points, a fighter/mage only had 7 HP at level 1 without high a con score.
You could still run it that way in a home game. You'd just have to get your group on board with the idea.
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Designer
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This is actually challenging me to create that elven wizard with a Con of 5 I have always used as an extreme example of what not to do in PFSRandom personal experience with something very similar: In a 3.5 organized play situation, there was an elf wizard with 6 Con who multiclassed into cleric (first level was wizard though) and was going mystic theurge. He somehow survived to level 6 (with 14 hp) and then wound up at my table. I was astounded, as this was the first time I met the character. I told him I'm not sure what he was doing, but it must be working, but nonetheless, I was terrified that he would die from an AoE. He said it was fine. I discovered what he was doing soon enough: for one thing, he was overleveled compared to the other PCs (though they still had way more hp), for another, he never did anything useful (even compared to a level 3 wizard without any cleric levels), so nothing wanted to target him because the other PCs were contributing. He survived encounter after encounter without a scratch due to this, until he was parked next to the two psions in the last encounter and the cleric dropped a flame strike, intending to hit the psions and incidentally hitting the elf, with pretty high rolls on the damage. He saved and died from full hp. All but one player demanded that they all chip in for a raise (the elf's share would have covered it on his own).Unless his out of combat contributions were a make or break kind of deal, I'd like as not have refused to pay for the elf's Raise Dead. While this might be considered a dick move, the guy's character wasn't actually contributing.
Mind you, back in 2nd edition I've played fighter/mage builds with crap hit points and wizards with more hit points then the frontline fighters. But that was more to do with having to roll your hit die at level 1. And even with max hit points, a fighter/mage only had 7 HP at level 1 without high a con score.
He contributed fairly well out of combat (not "make or break" but still fairly well with access to both lists), and that was sort of his "trick" in that the enemies wouldn't see those contributions so they had no reason to target him.
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Then I'd seriously consider helping to raise him. Heck, I'm in a 3.5 campaign right now where the rogue's first action in combat is to hide since he's a noncombatant. But he did save the life of a couple people by dragging them to safety and providing first aid.
If your rogue had been helping in combat - they might not have been injured at all.
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So what I gather from these six pages of discussion is that:
A good Con score helps, but is not necessary Likewise, a low Con score is unwanted but not terrible, especially for some builds and playstyles Crits are deadly. There are crits where a better Con score would not have made a difference Crits are not the only ways to die Live and learn, am I right?
You forgot:
Failing a save vs. Stinking Cloud is extremely annoying.
Especially when the dc is so low you only fail on a result of 1. +25 bonus but nooooo.
*quiet Seeker rage*
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Then I'd seriously consider helping to raise him. Heck, I'm in a 3.5 campaign right now where the rogue's first action in combat is to hide since he's a noncombatant. But he did save the life of a couple people by dragging them to safety and providing first aid.If your rogue had been helping in combat - they might not have been injured at all.
Unlikely. It went like this:
Surprise round
Rogue dives beneath cart
Rogue gets arrow in bum from badguy with same initiative
wizard casts magic missile
wizard eats arrow to chest
Paladin gets charged by two orcs
bard eats magic missile (DM rolled 10 damage)
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Maybe, maybe not though. The rogue rolled crap for both strength and dex. He's built more as a con man and trap monkey since he has decent charisma and okay Int. Overall though, his best attribute is a 14 with many that are 12 or less. Mostly less.
One of the drawbacks to rolling for attributes. It's possible to get a horrible stat layout. And since we already had two wizards and a sorcerer, he opted to go for rogue.
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One other thing to think about with low Con characters, is some way to avoid the save and die problems that that can cause.
If you wind up in an are where multiple Cloudkills overlap, do you only have to save against one, or each one individually?
I have seen a situation, in an actual PFS scenario, where there were something like 8 Cloudkills in an indoor area at the same time.
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
Low Con is double trouble, here, since it makes it harder to make that essential Fortitude save... Minimum DC is DC 10+5 (SL) + 2 (min Int. mod), so DC 17, if off a scroll. Higher for even a caster NPC point build.
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Many of the save or suck and low HP/Fort issues inherent to a low Con score can be at least partially mitigated with pragmatic preparations. Things like an aegis of recover can help when HP drops below zero. A scroll of gust of wind or a necklace of adaptation can neutralize the effects of a stinking cloud or a cloudkill.
While it is true that low-Con characters have to be more careful, with a little foresight and proper preparation, they can be just as survivable as characters with tons of HP and high saves.
I have seen a situation, in an actual PFS scenario, where there were something like 8 Cloudkills in an indoor area at the same time
I doubt even high-Con/good save characters could survive very long in this environment
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Yeah, a cloudkill is a cloudkill. Just because you have eight castings stacked in the same place doesn't make cloudkill more deadly then it already was.
NOWWWW... if they have all the avenues of escape covered with different layers it could become *exceptionally* difficult to get out of the area of effect... of course.