So, I just decided to look through the Core Rulebook for a definition of Melee Attack. I found one.
You're right. I've reconsidered because.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).This definition excludes Combat Maneuvers. It seems that a Combat Maneuver is not a Melee Attack even when it happens during Melee because it is a Special Attack.
I'm a little chagrinned that I didn't think to end this argument sooner by looking for a game-term definition of Melee Attack, but I can comfort myself with the realization that I did it before any of you did!
I congratulate you on your search foo.
I did look for a definition of melee attack to futher the discussion, but could not find it it.But I was pretty sure I knew what a melee attack was; I suggested as much when I said melee attacks are defined; melee touch attacks are defined, ranged attacks are defined.
Now, to the second part of your argument, which I covered as
Hole 3 and Hole 4.
C. Hole 3.
We haven't established that you can make Grapple attacks. What is established that the pinned condition allows you to make a Grapple Maneuver check to escape. Making a check is not the same as making a grapple attack.
It also says you can take a Escape check. Is this an attack now too?
D. Hole 4.
The pin condition says nothing about being able to take control of the grapple. There is nothing therefore remotely "threatening" about escaping a pin.
What I am saying as "Hole 3" is that we haven't actually established that you can make combat maneuvers while pinned.
Hear me out.
I will make two arguments in favor of this.
First, the pinned condition applies conditions on you. You can take make efforts to *free* yourself (nothing else relevant for the purpose of this discussion)
*usually* a combat maneuver check.
Why the *usually* because other things can apply a pin condition on you, with other conditions to escape.
But making a check to escape via a grapple check is not the same as initiating a grapple. The same modifiers do not apply, for example. Nor can you chose the same targets etc, Nor can you attempt to control the grapple.
Likewise, the pinned condition lists one other way to escape: an escape artist check.
So I am saying that the pinned condition when applied via a grapple does not allow you to make combat maneuvers - it allows you to make efforts to free yourself, which in this case are defined as a combat maneuver check (with very specific modifiers, or an escape artist check.
Second Argument:
What is the difference between pinned and helpless?
Pinned says: "A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack."
Helpless says:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy
So being bound means you can either be pinned or helpless.
Whats the difference?
Well, in pinned you can take verbal actions.
And you can attempt to escape your bounds.
I posit that *if* the pinned person cannot break his bounds (cmd is higher than cmb +20
and IF you gag him, which would remove his ability to take verbal actions
you have, in fact rendered him helpless. Helpless people cannot make combat maneuver checks.
Removing a gag from a helpless person does not affect his abilities to make combat maneuver checks.
Changing the difficulty of the CMD does not change whether the person can make combat maneuver checks. It only means he has a means of freeing himself.
So I submit to you, in fact, pinned people cannot in fact make combat maneuvers; they can only attempt to free themselves.
To tidy up loose ends. There is one other ability that needs to be tidied up. A pinned person can make mental actions.
But I suggest that this doesn't change actually whether he is treated as helpless. Either the character can cast a spell (without V, S, M components) or he can't. If he can, perhaps he will free himself.
But either way, it does not change that others will treat him as helpless.
Secondly, you would have to remove any clerical focuses on armor etc.
I think this pretty much tidies up the question of the progression from grappled to pinned to helpless, and makes it coherent.
Again, pinned prevents you from making an attack. Whw'hair is an attack which then gets a free grapple.
You can't make the attack; therefore you can't make the free grapple.
PS. I suggest you go back and revisit the AoMF argument. I think you will have a greater understanding of why it doesn't apply. And the rules won't seem so troubling.
A melee attack is part of a std or full attack(with a weapon). A Combat maneuver is an option that modifies a melee attack, in somecases, or an entirely different mechanism in others.
For example if you make a Sunder attack if your attack is successful instead of damaging the creature you damage item in a prescribed method.
If they would have been consistent with grapple they would have used a to hit roll (probably a melee touch) and then had some method of determining if the grapple was successful.
If they had done that AoMF would have applied to the first part.
Instead however chose to invent an entirely new system for grapple.
It doesn't use a melee attack to fire, it uses a standard action.
This is why I said the aomf bonus to hit is different / incidental
To that which is needed to make a successful Grapple.
I'm not very good at explaining what I mean constructively. You do a better job than I. A lot of times it takes a lot of listening to figure out what I mean, and I'm sorry about ths.
Regarding the table in the rules, it's not that a Sunder *is* a melee attack... it replaces a melee attack.
When I said that combat maneuvers is an OPTION that modifies an attack, I was quoting the rules.
When I said that combat maneuvers is an OPTION that modifies an attack, I was quoting the rules.
Read the definition applied to special attack on that table.
However, I'll get back to that.
Please address the issues I raised under the post "I congratulate you on your search foo."
You can't just pound the table and say "thems what the rules say" because you're still wrong on what the rules say.
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On that one, it’s not a question of whether the grappler can move after a grapple. They clearly can if they have a move action left (or are performing a flyby Attack with grab). They would have to release the grapple to do so, though.Perfect Tommy has been asserting that you can move away from your Grappled Opponent, presumably to within your maximum Reach, without surrendering control of your Grapple.
That doesn’t work. At least not with a normal grapple check. When you grapple someone you also gain the grappled condition. The grappled condition says, “Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.” So with just a normal check to grapple or grab, you cannot move if you are successful.
It is possible, though, with the grab ability for a monster. The monster has to take a -20 to the grapple check, but if successful it doesn’t get the grappled condition.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
That would allow the creature to do what you describe here. Grapple someone and move up to the creature’s reach away while still grappling the target. It would not allow the creature to move with its target until the creature can make a check to maintain the grapple, and that check to maintain would need to take the -20 as well (but would get the normal +5 from already having the target grappled).
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Yeah, I’m sure there are other specific examples. Just noting that it is possible and giving one instance. None of those abilities let you move and move the grappled creature without first maintaining the grapple and following the rules under the Move option. That’s not to say there isn’t something out there that would let you do that. I’m just not aware of it.
But for Tommy’s purposes, it is possible for a creature to have you grappled from 15 feet away, and I don’t think you could be said to threaten that creature just because you can break the grapple. Unless you also have 15 feet of reach. Then you could attack or reverse the grapple.
It’s my opinion that none of that matters for pinned, because when you are pinned, you are not armed (I’m reading a little into what is required to be armed here), and therefore don’t threaten anyway.
On that one, it’s not a question of whether the grappler can move after a grapple. They clearly can if they have a move action left (or are performing a flyby Attack with grab). They would have to release the grapple to do so, though.Perfect Tommy has been asserting that you can move away from your Grappled Opponent, presumably to within your maximum Reach, without surrendering control of your Grapple.That doesn’t work. At least not with a normal grapple check. When you grapple someone you also gain the grappled condition. The grappled condition says, “Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity.” So with just a normal check to grapple or grab, you cannot move if you are successful.
It is possible, though, with the grab ability for a monster. The monster has to take a -20 to the grapple check, but if successful it doesn’t get the grappled condition.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.That would allow the creature to do what you describe here. Grapple someone and move up to the creature’s reach away while still grappling the target. It would not allow the creature to move with its target until the creature can make a check to maintain the grapple, and that check to maintain would need to take the -20 as well (but would get the normal +5 from already having the target grappled).
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The grapple rules ALSO say:
"Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus."
Notice that that you *MAY* place your target adjacent to you. You are not required to.
Per RAW there is no obligation to maintain the grapple adjacent (which should be a duh guys, as creatures with grab rarely maintain the grab while adjacent.)
Also recalled that if you are grappled via grab with the -20, the grappled condition does not apply to you and you can move freely.
So, what point are you trying to make now?
I asked you to go back and address the points I raised in the post that starts "I congratulate you on your search foo."
I typed a long post, with several points.
But fine.. I'll cut and paste for your benefit.
First here is Pinned Condition:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
"tightly bound" means (collins english dictionary) strictly or severely confined; in bonds or chains; tied with or as if with a rope
Here is the helpless condition:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
So I am making several lines of argument here.
1. The pinned condition does not allow you to make Combat maneuvers you think it does.
Sub argument A: Many combat maneuvers are replacements for melee attacks. These are precluded. For similar reasons (developed further below) other combat maneuvers are also precluded.
Sub argument B: The pinned condition does not allow you to make a grapple check to take over the grapple. (Read it). This argument will be developed below
Sub argument C: The similarity between helpless and pinned allow you to better classify what can be done while pinned. Again, explored below.
Sub argument D: Categorizing what "few" actions a pinned character can do. Categorizing what "usually combat maneuvers" means.
Sub argument E: Arguing that pinning applies a condition that specifies EXACTLY what actions can be taken.
Argument E:
Lets examine the transition from Grapple to Pin.
Remember that Pin is a "more severe version of the grappled condition"
If you are grappled you may
1. Attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check equal to your opponents CMD. (notice it does not say you are making a grapple check?)
2. Make an Escape Artist Check
3. You may attempt to reverse the grapple.
4. You may take any action that doesn't take two hands to perform
This includes make an attack action or full attack action, against any creature within reach.
5. You can move up to 1/2 your speed.
6. Can take mental and verbal abilities
7. Take a -2 on all attacks and combat maneuver checks except to grapple or escape a grapple
If you are grappled you may not
6. Make an attack of opportunity.
8. No actions that take 2 hands
9 Cannot use stealth
10. Receives +2 CMD from invis but no other benefit.
11. Has significant impediments to casting a spell.
Now pinned is the more serious condition. Lets see what abilities it removes: (All these conditions were granted under the grapple ability, and are no longer available under the pinned condition).
You cannot take the full attack action.
You cannot take the attack action.
You cannot move.
You cannot cast spells that require somatic or material component.
You cannot cast other spells without making a concentration check.
You cannot use spell like abilities without a concentration check.
You cannot reverse the grapple.
You are denied your dexterity bonus, which means you can not prevent stealth or precision damage being done to you.
You cannot take a combat maneuver with a -2 penalty.
Since grappling is the more severe condition, at the very least we should expect that you still:
Cannot use stealth.
Get minimum benefit from invisibility.
Make an attack of opportunity
No actions that take two hands.
So Grapple has a bunch of things you are explictly allowed to do.
These things are REMOVED under pinned.
SO either:
A). The list of things you can do under pin is exhaustive and your ability to do this grapple abilities is removed
or
B). You can do these actions freely, and without restriction.
Yet pinned is described as the more serious condition. How does it make sense that it is EASIER to do a combat maneuver? (Remember you suffer a -2 on combat maneuvers under grapple, but pinned does not have that language),
The pinned condition does not say you cannot take an action that takes 2 hands. How is it now that you are pinned you suddenly can take a 2h action.
So, it is my position that the pinned list is an exact list of things you are permitted to do; nothing else. That all the things you were expressing allowed to do under grapple, you no longer can.
And, I would make the case that it is the same with the progression to helpless. The helpless condition expressly says what you are permitted to do, and removes all other abilities under the pinned condition.
Grappled...>pinned...> helpless represents a logical, structured and increasingly restricted set of conditions
This is rather long and time consuming. I'll work on arguments A-D in a bit.
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it is possible for a creature to have you grappled from 15 feet away, and I don’t think you could be said to threaten that creature just because you can break the grapple. Unless you also have 15 feet of reach. Then you could attack or reverse the grapple.
It’s my opinion that none of that matters for pinned, because when you are pinned, you are not armed (I’m reading a little into what is required to be armed here), and therefore don’t threaten anyway.
Dude, you too?
Go back a few of my posts. I found a Game-Term definition of Melee Attack that excludes Grapple Checks. I've already admitted I was wrong about that. But Tommy--and you, it seems--want to keep arguing that point.
I was just summarizing my stance. Not trying to prolong the discussion. There are so many points being thrown back and forth in this discussion, I felt it necessary to do so. I feel like I've been pretty consistent on that point throughout the thread.
That being said, I have also found 4 ways of making armed attacks that do constitute attempting to free yourself from a grapple, so you could use them when Pinned, so you would still Threaten.
I must have missed them. Entirely possible. There's a lot of text in this thread.
I don't see any off the top of my head. Being able to reverse the grapple doesn't make it an armed attack. You can't attack with a weapon while pinned. You can't make an unarmed strike while pinned. You can't attack with a natural weapon while pinned. A grapple attack doesn't say it's an armed attack anywhere in the rule that I can see.
The only thing I remember from the thread that might work is having Improved Unarmed Strike, which states you're considered armed. My interpretation of that, though, is that you are considered armed when you can make an unarmed strike, which is most of the time, but not when you are pinned or helpless or stunned or whatever removes your ability to make an armed attack. That's what I meant by reading into what being armed or unarmed means. If you can't make an armed attack, you aren't armed.
I've mentioned this a few times over the thread... if being able to make a grapple check means that you threaten, then everyone threatens by default, because anyone can make a grapple check. Wizards don't need to hold a dagger to threaten or wear a cestus. Untrained commoners don't need to have a weapon. Everyone would threaten all the time when they are unarmed. But Threatened Squares tells us that you don't normally threaten when you are unarmed. So for something to change that, it needs to have specific language doing so. Like Improved Unarmed Strike does. Or being "armed" with a touch spell. Trip, Grapple, Sunder, Bull Rush, etc. and their Improved feats don't have any such language.
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So, I have identified 4 examples of Melee Attacks that do constitute effort to free yourself: a melee attack with a poisoned weapon (given a poison that causes paralysis, unconsciousness, or death), a shield bash attack if you have the Shield Slam Feat, Stunning Fist, and a Natural Attack with White Hair. All of these attacks, if successful, result in your being freed from the Grapple and Pin, so all of those attacks are legal to take because, I iterate,
I don't think you can take any of those actions while pinned. How can you attack with a poisoned weapon, when you can't attack with a weapon? How can you shield bash? How can you use Stunning Fist, when you can't make an unarmed attack? How can you use the White Hair, when you can't make a natural attack?
A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check.
So, again, when something says something like "normally" or "usually" and then lists options, those are the only options you can use unless another ability has specific language indicating it can be used in that situation. Just because a bull rush would free you, doesn't mean you can make a bull rush. You would need a feat that said something to the effect of, "This feat allows you to make a Shield Bash while pinned." Shield Slam doesn't say that. It says, "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack." When you are pinned, you can't hit anyone with your shield bash.
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There’s not any point in discussing further. If you want to allow those options to work in your game, go ahead. I don’t think you’ll find many GMs who will agree with you. Good luck to you. I think my contribution to this thread has ceased to be useful. Going to hide it now to resist temptation to rejoin the conversation.
There’s not any point in discussing further. If you want to allow those options to work in your game, go ahead. I don’t think you’ll find many GMs who will agree with you. Good luck to you. I think my contribution to this thread has ceased to be useful. Going to hide it now to resist temptation to rejoin the conversation.
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Yep. None of them will work in mine either. And rather than post arguments to discuss it, I think at this many pages, I'm done also
As far as I can see, a consensus has been reached on these points.
This isn't Wikipedia.
The grappled condition makes it clear you can attack your grappler at -2 to-hit. But the pinned condition removes that restriction, and specifically says it doesn't stack with the grappled condition. It makes no other reference to attacking.
At first I thought "creature cannot move" prevented attacking, but 2 things contradict that:
1. The grappled condition has the same text, and a grappled creature can attack.
2. A pinned creature can take verbal actions, so they can move their mouth.
3. A pinned creature takes only a -4 penalty to his armor class, rather than becoming helpless. And creatures that actually can't move (like bound creatures) are always helpless.So it seems there's nothing preventing this, but it's really odd that a grappled creature takes -2 to attack its grappler and a pinned creature doesn't.
Here's the relevant text from the SRD:
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component.The pinned condition says you are limited in the actions it can take and then lists those actions you are allowed. You can:
1) Attempt to free yourself.
2) Take verbal and mental actions.That is it.
So you basically cant even become the primary grappler the way its written, you can only escape or take mental actions.