@Tels: I literally said you need to restrict magic so casters don't get a major advantage over martial classes... Which is literally what you said. They don't need to fight the whole bestiary, you just don't want a sorceror out shining everything because they can deal with all encounters equally (or at least many more). I gave detailed suggestions up thread, where full casting is restricted to NPCs and using automatic progression as a quest/spiritual journey.
hiiamtom wrote: @Tels: I literally said you need to restrict magic so casters don't get a major advantage over martial classes... Which is literally what you said. They don't need to fight the whole bestiary, you just don't want a sorceror out shining everything because they can deal with all encounters equally (or at least many more). I gave detailed suggestions up thread, where full casting is restricted to NPCs and using automatic progression as a quest/spiritual journey. Okay... in my OP I posted an idea I might use, which restricts casters to using only the Adept spell list plus those granted by class features like Domains, Revelations or Bloodlines.
I think there is a minor bit of confusion in the goal of this thread. It was originallyy posted in General Discussion because I wanted to see how others might do it and get discussion going. I am not currently looking to start a primitive campaign, though the idea sounds fun. I just wanted to see what other people might do, why they might do it, and discuss these options.
Personally, I lean heavily towards the severe restriction of magic and cutting out classes I feel may not be appropriate, like the Fighter(who's flavor is all about fighting which goes against the idea of being more primitive and surviving entirely off the land) or the Wizard/Alchemist who are too intellectually driven to study spells or reseaching reagents. Such classes could, potentially still exist, but only as NPCs, in my opinion.
Just remember the PCs are special, and may not be bound by the limitations of others.
Also, restrict the spell lists too much, and the players might not have fun playing those casters.
The very idea behind playing a primitive campaign is having some stuff change from the baseline weird medieval/renaissance time. Otherwise, just refluff everything. Sure, you can have wizards, paladins, aristocrats, Knowledge (engineering), massive cities, spell colleges. Just refluff. Heck, you can even use the stuff in the technology book. All you have to do is refluff.
There's probably a GURPS book somewhere. There's almost always a GURPS book somewhere.
Tels wrote: I got to watching the Primitive Technology channel on YouTue (again) and I found myself wondering how one would run a primitive campaign. For example, with far more restricted magic, and classes and weapons etc.
Ultimate Combat did a good job of dealing with Primitive Materials. A novel I read years ago the society was early medival save the world lacked the typical ore common to most worlds. They used wood and other materials to make up for the lack of iron and other metals. Their wood equipment was as strong and in some ways superior to typical steel and iron weapons. The lack of common ore could explain while the world is primitive.
Now as far as restricting classes, I wouldn't except maybe the Gunslinger. It's the only one that doesn't fit with what you might be planning everything else does. Most Martial Classes still fit well. Look at the Native American Indians they would be Fighters, Rangers and even oddly enough Cavaliers. Some were feared warriors on horseback hence Cavaliers. There are enough stories about warriors going on quests with powerful fetishes and abilities, a Paladin. While not a Martial Class Monks still work although they are meant to be played with an eastern flair. However a Monk designed to wrestle and grapple works well enough.
Divine casters all work well in their own way. Granted Druids, Shamans, and Oracles fit better other Divine classes can work. Look at the Aztecs and Mayans and Egyptians. They had Priests, essentially a cleric. In Egypt they were in some ways more powerful then the catholic church. Both Warpriests and Inquisitors can work although they would seem a little odd. Both serve as enforcers to the church and would be a small group sitting outside the hierarchy.
Arcane Casters require a little more though but all still work well. Alchemists have an Archtype and Prestige Class dealing with them in a more natural setting easily surviving in a more Primitive setting. Wizards, and Witches deserve mention in this. Both require studying and both can gain spells above what they get each level. Granted a Wizard is a more urban class it still works. Native American Medicine Men could serve as an example. Master to pupil training their Medicine Bag is their spell book. Witches could have a similar concept although they usually receive training from nonhuman sources. The Magus would be interesting and if a player could come up with a good reason I'd allow it. One archtype that works without adjustment is The Blackblade he receives his powers from the weapon. Sorcerers need no explanation being born with them. Summoners fall into that category. Their Eidolon should reflect the setting so no Clockwork looking creatures.
Rogue types all work well. Several stories and legends exist of Native American Indians using cunning and wits to overcome challenges. Story tellers existed since caveman days, hence a Bard.
Prestige Classes should be judged on a case by case basis.
Did it in the past
Intuitive and Self Taught classes were the only ones available.
Half-races weren't there. All PCs had to be from the same region (so halflings and humans could be together, but elves and either of the other two could not, same with dwarves, etc. Gnomes could be mixed with any race because of the events at the time). Technology depended on the race. Humans had wheels and simple machines (inclined plane, wheel, etc), elves had boats, dwarves had metal.
Overall it turned out really well and I am really tempted to do it again as my party is disjoined from the world at the moment.
Notably at the time slavery and racism was heavily prevelant in Elf society.
I have read the posts offered and most suggest no or low magic. Intuitive classes only for everything else. I disagree with them on this. Primitive materials alone makes life difficult enough. Ultimate Combat talks at great length regarding this depending on your setting. Almost everything starts out fragile which when a player rolls a one his weapons break. A critical hit destroys his armor. No matter what class they will run into problems just from this issue alone.
The only class I'd ban in Gunslinger, everything else can work with some adjustments. Wizards still work in a Primitive setting. Instead of a spell book full of paper they could make a primitive one with papyrus. You could even design a Wizard where his spell book is not a spell book. Consider this in earlier times training of any sort was through family then tribal. Example father teaches son how to track and kill wild game. Mother teaches daughter what and how to gather edible plants. Now you simply expand on that a Wizard is trained by a village elder if not his parents. The fact towns and cities are probably nonexistent means no guilds or schools limiting the spells a Wizards knows by what he chooses at new levels.
I've read a lot of people say allow only Barbarians and Rangers. Again I think this is limiting and wrong. Consider some Native American Indians were feared horsemen. Screams Cavalier to me. Fighters under their description state they vary in training and outlook. Some primitive tribes knew little about being hunter gatherers since they raided one another. They were described as Warriors. Warriors are essentially an NPC version of a Fighter. Now Paladins are a little trickier but still possible. I've read of legends of primitive people having champions go on quests able to overcome challenges through powers, abilities and spiritual blessings. Sounds like a Paladin.
Clerics are not only possible but very common. Anywhere from the Native American Medicine man to the priests of the ancient Egyptians and earlier periods. The Aztecs and Mayans being another fantastic example. While primitive in a lot of ways their religion was considerably more advanced then most people would have guessed. Regarding Inquisitors and Warpriests they led wars against other tribes. More wars have been fought over religion then anything else.
Alchemists have been around for centuries as well. The Chinese and Egyptians have always been considered pioneers of medicine and science. Granted the materials were more primitive but again sounds like an Alchemist.
I think you can depending on what you are trying to do have a campaign with almost every class available. If nothing else it will challenge players to come up with a reason as to why they are what they are.
I would HIGHLY suggest against trained classes unless it's supported in the society's story. Most of them require potentially absent concepts like religious doctrine or the written word.
I would definitely suggest using the Self-Trained classes, as many of them can be primitivized easily. There are, of course, exceptions. Such as gunslinger not really making sense, or paladin if you lack religious support (unlike clerics they don't require doctrine, just a solid cause and morality).
Again, certain things can br justified, and by rights you should always work toward including as many classes as you can.
In my first campaign one of the characters invented magic items and the written word and scrolls, thus creating wizards. Another began the worship of and following the examples of dragons, this creating religion and clerics/paladins.
Just dropping a link to an older thread on the same topic: Primitive World Campaign Ideas
Wizards don't need the written word. They can use the Spell Mastery feat. Maybe replace their 1st level Scribe Scroll bonus feat with a bonus Spell Mastery feat. It wouldn't eliminate wizards, but it might discourage them since pretty much every feat they get will need to be Spell Mastery if they want to learn higher level spells.
The same can be done with alchemists and magi, if less effectively.
My main concern is the lack of armor. If it is pre-metal, leather, padded, and hide might be the only kinds available. Hide with a wooden heavy shield is AC 15, right?
Just something for the GM to keep in mind.
hiiamtom wrote: You restrict casting classes because your martial classes are going to be hurting for magic items and weapons that don't break. Without a big 6 your classes will struggle against the bestiary, but your full caster is mostly unimpeded by the setting - which is a very bad thing. One of the first suggestions in the thread was to use automatic bonus progression- something I believe would be very useful for a primitive game that didn't actually want to throw out magic.
That way the martials don't get screwed over TOO hard.
It really depends on what you are going for. If you just want primitive flavor without changing too much of the game balance, that's a way to do it. If you want a super-primitive-game-challenge then restricting magic is the way to go.
But I personally that magic is a HUGE part of primitive societies and it'd be fun to play in a game that actually emphasized that element instead of just using the primitive setting as an excuse to ban classes and ramp up the difficulty.
If my PCs decide to play the world they'll be making, I think I'll have them take the rules that replace magic items this time. Last time I just gave them really good stats
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