RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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I would like to request that the Deep Marshal magus archetype from Arcane Anthologies become legal for PFS play.
Caveat: If the archetype is being reserved as a chronicle or boon reward, then see this a post of love for a cool, flavorful archetype.
Premise: An option is banned only if it conflicts with the nature or goals of the campaign (unless it is reserved as a boon reward for later).
Premise: Deep Marshal does not conflict with the nature or goals of the campaign.
Premise: Deep Marshal is not overpowering or identified as a must have that will override other magus options.
Conclusion: Deep Marshal should not be banned.
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Reasoning:
Premise #1:
As I see it, there are two ways of looking at content legality in PFS.
One method is that nothing outside the Core Assumption is allowed, unless it appears to specifically benefit the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with everything banned, and then Mike looks through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would make the campaign better" and makes an exception for it (i.e., legalize it).
The other method is that new content is generally legal, unless it appears to specifically hurt the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with an assumption that its content will be legal, and then the OPC/PFS developers looks through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would cause problems with the campaign" and makes an exception for it (i.e., ban it).
It is my understanding that the latter is the stance of PFS leadership, hence Premise #1.
Premise #2:
I am not aware of any aspect of the campaign with which Deep Marshal conflicts.
It does not directly affect wealth.
It does not invite unregulated customization.
It does not skirt alignment restrictions.
It does not slow down gameplay.
It does not have canon issues.
It does not skirt PvP rules.
I contend that this is not the case.
The one point that the Deep Marshal affects wealth is that at level 3, it grants free ranks in Profession: Miner which can be used for Day Job checks. However, even with good boons, this doesn't add up to a lot of gold over the standard PFS career. Assuming a solid 25 for the Day Job check for 50 gold a session, playing normal progression, and only playing 1XP scenarios or modules, that is only about 1,350 gold between the beginning of 3rd level to level 12.
Thus, I contend that Deep Marshal does not conflict with any aspect of the campaign.
Premise #3:
If the Deep Marshal is to be considered overpowered, then it needs to be compared to the base magus.
Deep Marshal vs base magus
Pros over base magus
- base medium armor access and gets heavy armor access far sooner than the base magus.
- At 3rd level, gets 1/2 the enhancement bonus to caster level while wielding dwarven themed weapons or the full bonus to overcome SR checks.
- At 3rd level, gets bonus ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering and Profession: Miner and uses the Intelligence modifier instead of Wisdom modifier for the Profession: Miner.
Cons under base magus
- Can only use dwarven themed weapons for the three core magus abilities: arcane pool, spellstrike, and spellcombat. Note that these weapons do not work very well for burst spell strikes due to the low crit threat range as compared to other popular magus weapons (rapiers, scimitars, etc.)
- Gets less arcane pool points compared to the base magus at 1/3 magus level + Int modifier instead of 1/2 magus level + Int modifier. Over a standard PFS career, this accounts for 2 fewer arcane pool points by level 12.
- Does not get a magus arcana until level six as the ability that replaces the first arcana at level 3 isn't an arcana itself, so the magus arcana class feature does not exist yet. This also means FCB that add magus arcana or feats to add more magus arcana cannot be selected until over halfway through a deep marshall's career.
Even comapred with base magus
- Adds some wizard crafting, earth-themed, and abjuration spells to the magus spell while losing enchantment, illusion, or necromancy spell capabilities. I see this as even as the useful spells lost are arguably even with the useful spells gained.
To me, it seems somewhat even. The deep marshal has more defensive options between better armor earlier than the base magus and gets abjuration spells for other options Offensively, the weapon selection is more restricted, but this is balanced by the potential caster level increase and bonus to spell resistance checks. The base magus, meanwhile, can use any weapon he/she feels like using and can more often get spellstrike crits using the higher crit range weapons that the Deep Marshall cannot use.
One thing that should be noted is that the caster level increase can never exceed +2 as the caster level increase is 1/2 the weapon's enhancement bonus and weapon enhancements cannot exceed +5. This also means that the weapon needs to have a +4 modifier to get the +2 CL boost. The absolute earliest this could occur would be level 5 as it would require using a +2 enhancement bonus via arcane pool and having a +2 weapon which requires 27 fame, with level 5 being the earliest that can occur. That will eat up about half a PC's wealth in most cases. The most obvious benefit will come from spells enhanced by Intensify Spell or those few spells that provide additional rounds/effects based on level (acid arrow and scorching ray come to mind).
Thus, I conclude that the Deep Marshall should be made for PFS play. The archetype trade-offs are fairly even and it does not disrupt the campaign setting or organized play rules.
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Agreed wholeheartedly. The Deep Marshall is a flavorful and cool archetype which I'd very much like to play, but it is nowhere as strong as the base magus. My first PFS character was a crit-fishing shocking grasp magus, and the amount of power she can output is staggering - and it relies entirely on the fact that she crits on a 15+.
The Deep Marshall is not overpowered, by any stretch of the imagination. I completely support legalizing it, and I agree that it does not disrupt the campaign and that including it would only be positive for the game and its players.
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I wholeheartedly support legalizing Deep Warden, I bought AA just for the archetype.
I've been doing some preliminary number crunching, and Deep Warden doesn't seem to be any better than a core Magus in terms of damage or defenses, and lags behind the Bladebound/Kensai in pretty much every field.
Once I get the data formatted, I'll post comparison between (my attempt at) an optimized Deep Warden, optimized core Magus, and optimized Bladebound/Kensai.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I very much agree. Although I do fear that it is being reserved for a boon of some kind.
Have any archetypes in the past been "locked" behind boons? Because I'm not aware of that having happened (the way it does for races). Turns out they are; see below.
I agree with the above posts. The Deep Warden is substantially weaker than a standard Magus. First, because all weapons it can use have a narrow crit range, whereas a common Magus trick is critting with spells and a keen scimitar. Second, because its spell list is much worse; the Magus's best defensive buffs are all illusions, and getting the entire abjuration school sounds powerful, but almost all the best abjuration spells are already on the Magus's list anyway.
Frankly I don't see anything ban-worthy about this archetype.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I very much agree. Although I do fear that it is being reserved for a boon of some kind.Have any archetypes in the past been "locked" behind boons? Because I'm not aware of that having happened (the way it does for races).
Yes, for example the Averaka Arbiter archetype can be accessed with a boon from a Season 7 scenario.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Good to know, thanks.
Anyway, in terms of the Deep Marshal's defense:
He loses Vanish at level 1; Invis, Mirror Image, Defending Bone, and Body Double at level 2; Displacement at level 3; and Greater Invis at level 4. That right there is the majority of the Magus's defensive options, although he retains a few transmutations like Stoneskin.
Now it may sound like the abjuration school would add some great defensive spells, such as Shield (1), Dispel Magic (3), and Ward Shield (4)... but all of these are already on the Magus list anyway. Basically, he gains Protection from Evil (1), Resist Energy (2), Protection from Energy (3) and Greater Stunning Barrier (3), and that's it.
It's certainly flavorful, but it's also clearly not an improvement.
