Grenadier with Lamp Oil

[Sacredless]

Alchemical Weapon wrote:

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.

This ability replaces poison resistance.

Lamp Oil wrote:

A pint of lamp oil burns for 6 hours in a common lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of lamp oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist's fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully.

You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

So, for my Grenadier, I would like to use lamp oil as my alchemical splash weapon of choice in the stead of alchemist's fire, because of my limits supply of money. However, given these rules, what is the failure rate of the lamp oil? Do I have a 50% chance to do fire damage with each strike and it simply covers them?

Then what if I strike them a few more times and one of those times, it does light up? Do they have to make up for the rounds they were "splashed" with oil? Do they burn longer? Is the burn that they make up for the former or the latter (1d6 + 1 round of 1d6 or 1d3 + 1 round of 1d3)?

Or is it always lit, because the grenadier's Alchemical Weapon makes the lamp oil always effective? Or do I roll 50% once for every creature and if I can't do it on the first roll, I can't try again?

Keep in mind that lamp oil is 1 sp. Alchemist's fire is 20. So this is a difference of 200x in price. And on successful Craft (Alchemy) checks, it's 4 cp.

For an ability which would essentially make any weapon get +1 Flaming for 1 minute.

[Gulthor]

Grenadier wrote:

The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon...

You have a couple things going on, here.

First - and this is the big one - alchemical weapon only applies once. It lasts a minute, true, but as soon as you hit, it's expended.

The second is how lamp oil would interact with the alchemical weapon feature.

Applying lamp oil would take the action described in alchemical weapon. However, you would then have to light the oil, which would be a separate action. The reason there's the 50% failure to ignite in the "throw lamp oil" description is that it's an improvised thrown splash weapon, essentially. You'll note there's no such failure listed when you light the oil directly.

You don't have to light alchemist fire (or activate most other alchemical items at all, actually) because the item has a chemical reaction to the exposure to air. Alchemist's fire ignites on its own, but lamp oil has no reason to self-ignite, hence the full-round action to prepare the flask, which doesn't even include the action to retrieve it, nor the action to throw it - that's just setting a fuse and lighting it.

In terms of lighting the oil once it's on your weapon, the action required is going to vary based on how you're going to ignite it.

Flint and Steel wrote:

Lighting a torch with a flint and steel is a full-round action. Lighting any other fire with them takes at least that long.

So going with the old-fashioned flint and steel, you're looking at a full-round action to light the weapon. If you've ever looked at a flint and steel, using one very clearly requires two hands, which would mean applying the oil as a move, setting the weapon down, drawing your flint and steel as a move (you could downgrade your standard), spending a full-round action to ignite the oil, spending a move to pick up the weapon, and then you could use it.

However, lamp oil also has the caveat that once lit after being poured out on a surface, it only burns for two rounds, which I would certainly include in the case of alchemical weapon.

"Now hang on a minute," I hear you saying, "alchemical weapon clearly says it lasts a minute." And that's true. The oil could last on the blade - unlit - for 1 minute, but once lit, you'd only have two rounds left to score a hit. I'll concede that this last interpretation could be subject to table variation.

Now if all that seems insane, that's what 200x the gold buys you - a stable, reliable, quick, and effective alchemical item.

But as a player playing a grenadier right now in Iron Gods, might I point you in the direction of acid? Half the price of alchemist fire, and a bargain 3g3s3c to craft, acid is a wonderful multipurpose alchemical item that works wonderfully for alchemical weapon.

[Sacredless]

All very good points! Thank you so much! I am compiling a list of alchemical items which can be used with both the hybridization funnel and the Alchemical Weapon feature.

What I was thinking was; well, if I had a mixture of lamp oil and alchemist's fire, would I get double the effect? And I'm figuring the answer is no, since you can't mix similar or identical items and lamp oil literally states "use the Alchemist's Fire mechanics, except with this caveat".

So that got me thinking whether lamp oil is an appropriate substitute. From what you're saying; no. No, it is not. :P

I deliberately chose a splash weapon with fire typing since I wanted it to work alongside Fireforged Weapons, given that I am setting a weapon on fire.

I'll go back to the drawing board, probably applying acid instead.

Also, if you'd like a tip; if your party has something or someone with scent, you can technically apply "Wild Animal Musk" and "Dye Marker" to your alchemical weapon too, allowing you to track and visually confirm someone who is trying to escape from your party. Both at the same time if you have a hybridization funnel. You probably knew that already, but I thought it was smart.

[Gulthor]

It's a neat tool :) We haven't had much cause to use it, but we do have a wildshape-focused druid in the party, so scent is a consideration.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend N.Jolly's alchemist guide.

What weapon(s) are you considering? I've chosen to use the longbow as my primary weapon and I've never looked back. In particular, the special ammo is what really makes it excellent. Dye arrows and tangleshot arrows (so good!) are really incredible ways to retain a touch attack (at the loss of damage, but w/e.) I use Explosive Missile + Alchemical Weapon + Hybridized Acid/Fire to wonderful and terribly amusing effect. Has the downside of hinging your entire attack on a single attack roll - but what an attack! Bomb damage + Int mod plus 2d6 + Int mod (+1d6 fire the following round) is good times.

Spring-loaded wrist sheaths and bandoliers are your friends, and if you have access to technological equipment, check out medlances (they explicitly work with extracts.) Put medlances in your wrist sheaths and you have some nice, quick Swift+Move extracts available, and retain your standard for blowing things up.

[Gulthor]

You might also be interested in this write-up I made last year.

Actions & Alchemical Weapons

[Sacredless]

I am making a Net Adept alchemist and I use a rapier. The concept that I am going for is a 18th-19th century military officer with Jekkyl & Hyde tropes (though inverse; Jekkyl is Lawful Neutral, Hyde is Chaotic Good) with Mr. Fantastic powers. Cloak-and-rapier style fighting, but replacing cloak with a net instead. There's a way to use cloaks in combat for people with Panache points and I'm not that, so I'm not following up on it.

I pump my Dex with a mutagen. My character's actual job is a bodyguard and, being a switch-hitter-friendly class, I specialized my character towards keeping our spellcasters safe from attacks. Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, nets, stink bombs.

Our GM allows people to apply Dex to their ranged attack rolls and he's allowed me to use Effortless Lace to make my net a light weapon when wielded as a melee weapon, one-handed when thrown.

I have a bow, I have special arrows, but I'm expecting people to close the distance fast and switch to melee, so it's not a very hard focus of mine. If people want to keep their distance so I can shoot them in the face and they can't do anything back, that's fine by me.

I did dip into Fighter to get my Net Adept early, because I want to cover a 35 feet radius of threatened range as soon as possible (60 if I have used my Enlarge Person extract, which is just crazy), so I can make use of all of my attacks of opportunity.

I'm banking hard on Attacks of Opportunity so that I can use my own turn to use extracts and bombs.

Never played an alchemist, though, so I have no idea if that's a good idea.

[Steelthunderr]

Lantern Tricks

Source PPZO94102

Lanterns come in a variety of shapes and sizes. Each of these tricks can be performed with any sort of lantern or lamp, except when a specific kind of lamp is indicated in the description. In addition to the feat, skill, or other requirements listed for each of these tricks, you must have the Equipment Trick (lantern) feat to use a trick.

Intensified Oil (Craft [alchemy] 3 ranks): You can combine three flasks of oil into a single use of improved oil as you add it to a lamp or lantern. This improved oil causes the lamp or lantern to which it is added to burn more brightly than usual, increasing its light range by 50%. This improved oil can only be used in the lamp or lantern it’s mixed in and has no additional special effects.
Lantern Bash (Shield Focus): If you carry a lamp or lantern in the hand you use to wield a light shield, your shield bash attacks with that shield deal an additional 1 point of fire damage.
Lantern Bomb (Quick Draw): You can throw a lamp or lantern with at least 4 hours of oil remaining in it as a splash weapon, using the rules for alchemist’s fire.
Lesser Light (no additional prerequisites): When lighting a lamp or lantern, you reduce the size of its flame to provide only dim light in the area in which the lantern usually provides normal light. The lamp or lantern uses oil at half the usual rate. The lamp or lantern must be extinguished and re-lit to shed light normally.
Oil Splash (Improved Dirty Trick): You can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against an opponent while either you or the opponent is holding a lamp or lantern. If you succeed at this combat maneuver check, you can knock some oil from the lamp or lantern into your target’s face. Your target is blinded as normal by the dirty trick and takes 1 point of fire damage each round the blindness lasts.

If an alchemist takes this feat . would that make the lantern bomb trick a very cheap version of alchemist fire indeed ? so for like 1 sp or 4cp( self crafted ) yer make a 1d6+int damage weapon !

[Mark Hoover 330]

With lamp oil, I prefer having a flying familiar dropping it on foes or making a ranged touch attack with the flask, while also having the Spark cantrip at the ready.

Also remember that when you throw the lantern as a splash weapon this likely breaks the lantern as it does the container of an Alchemist's Fire. This is not explicitly stated above, so it could certainly be argued either way, but as a GM that's what I would say.

I'm a kind, benevolent GM however so I'd likely allow lanterns to be repaired by the Mending cantrip. Either that, or buy LOTS of lanterns.

[Steelthunderr]

alchemist . so not wizard/sorcerer and handy haversack , but my trouble is .. if this works as alchemist fire indeed ., its a very cheap version of the alchemist weapon alchemist fire .

Ofcourse the alchemist can get the tumor discovery.

[avr]

Beyond low levels an alchemist doesn't have a lot of use for simple alchemist's fire, and anyway you probably can't easily carry half a dozen lit lamps or lanterns - doing so in a handy haversack will extinguish them when the air runs out at best, or risk damaging spills at worst.

[Steelthunderr]

i realise that , and at later lvls creatures might get fire resistance .. i was looking for weapons what gave splash effect for the alchemist +int bonus .. this equipment trick was just a nice thing i found . wasnt aware of it.

for any usefullness of the lamp trick i need to get the extra arms . not sure if i take those so early on . they can hold the lamp/lanterns .

[Mark Hoover 330]

Honestly, by level 2 the ability to load your lantern becomes kind of moot. You've got the Tentacle, Tumor Familiar or Vestigal Arm Discoveries. Any of those will hold the lantern while you use two hands for whatever's needed.

The Familiar is my pick, but I'm biased 'cuz I love Familiars. A Valet archetype Familiar for example gets Prestidigitation at will. Seems meh until you realize it can let the Familiar move 1 lb of material, albeit "slowly." That means the Familiar doesn't even need opposable thumbs to hand you a vial of lamp oil every round.

Another way to go would be to give your Familiar Evolution Points like an Eidolon. You could achieve this through a Feat if you have a 13 Charisma or by instead giving it the Figment Archetype. The 1 point Evolution Basic Magic gives the Familiar Mage Hand 1/day, but the duration on Mage Hand is Concentration so as long as the Figment doesn't lose Concentration it can pick one object, say, your lantern, that is 5 lbs or less, that it can move around all day.

As well, it's an animal form that can detach from your body so if it CAN pick up and manipulate items, such as a Monkey, it doesn't even need any of these spells. It just sits in a satchel at your hip, handing you flasks of oil, or acid, or whatever while you go on with your attacks.

With the Lantern Bomb trick, there's lots of questions to ask. Does the lantern get broken after throwing it? How do you reload/relight the lantern after it's thrown? Do you have 2 feats to devote to a 1d6 +Int Splash Weapon attack?

The base alchemist gets Bombs, for 1d6 +Int damage, but it's not splash damage. Also they only get Class Level +Int number of Bombs/day so it's a limited resource.

Equipment Trick requires a BAB +1 before you can take the feat. The first time a base Alchemist can take this Feat would be level 3. By level 3 you could either spend 2 feats for cheap, all-day Lantern Bomb tricks for 1d6 +Int splash damage or you could have those 2 feats spent on improving the accuracy and damage of your daily Bombs when throwing from 30' or less, increase the number of bombs/day by 2, use a Discovery to change your bombs to a different (less resisted) energy type, AND be inflicting 2d6 +Int now instead of 1d6.

Is the Lantern Bomb trick worth the investment? I suppose if you're going Grenadier, adding that Lantern Bomb into your normal Bomb and dealing extra damage, but again, you'll have to contend with Fire being the most resisted Energy type. Otherwise, 1d6 +Int just isn't enough damage to remain relevant past, maybe, level 3 or 4 depending on other feats you have with these 2.