Trained Grace mechanic


Advice


Hi guys just want to know how this works.

Trained Grace (Ex) When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.

So a 20th level fighter should only be able to gain 8 dmg (1-4 weapon training/ advanced weapon training from "features") or 12 dmg (4 same features + gloves of dueling) right?

Not sure if gloves of dueling is allowed to do that.

Then begs the question if advanced weapon training "feats" adds onto that weapon training tally. Personally i feel its only + 8 but would like to hear others opinion about this.


The Fighter will have a weapon training between 1 and 4, +2 from the gloves. So trained Grace adds another +3-6 to damage.

Nothing in Advanced Weapon Training increases your Weapon Training bonus.


Sorry for my late reply Casual Viking.

So as Lv20 Pure Fighter
I should expect an increase of +4Atk/+4Dmg from 4 weapon trainings and +2Atk/+2Dmg from Dueling gloves.

With Trained Grace, it can make that into +6Atk/+12Dmg? Or the dueling gloves don't get doubled so its +6Atk/+10Dmg?

I've been looking into seeing how much i could close the gap of a Pure Str fighter vs a Finesse Fighter ;x.

Someone mentioned Martial Focus adding another weapon training bonus before but i'm unsure if it works with trained grace.

My starting Stats at 25 pt were
16 str, 14+2 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 10 cha

Thanks for anyone's reply

Liberty's Edge

Gloves of Dueling do not add +2 to hit and damage. They increase your weapon training bonus by +2, which in turn adds +2 to hit and damage.

Gloves of Dueling via Archives of Nethys wrote:


Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 236 (Amazon), Advanced Player's Guide pg. 1 (Amazon)
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th
Slot hands; Price 15,000 gp; Weight —
Description
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp

Reference

Since your WT bonus is increased, abilities that refer to your WT bonus use the new number. So Trained Grace at level 20 with Gloves of Dueling would be +6/+12.


yep i might of worded it wrong but least we're in agreement with result thanks for reply


For what it is worth, here is the author unofficially speaking about his intention.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

When I designed the AWTs, I did so with the assumption that the gloves increased the weapon training bonus, and that modified bonus interfaces with the advanced weapon trainings. For example, if you had the gloves at 9th leveland had trained grace, you'd add +2 to your weapon training bonus which would then be multiplied to +8 for damage rolls.

This might not be Paizo's stance now that ADTs have gone through development, but in my opinion, we're talking about small bonuses to a class that has been historically weak.

Talk to your GM and if Paizo releases an official statement, use what they say. (And I probably shouldn't be considered a reputable source for the purpose of PFS and the like since I'm not a golem.)


Gisher wrote:

For what it is worth, here is the author unofficially speaking about his intention.

Alexander Augunas wrote:

When I designed the AWTs, I did so with the assumption that the gloves increased the weapon training bonus, and that modified bonus interfaces with the advanced weapon trainings. For example, if you had the gloves at 9th leveland had trained grace, you'd add +2 to your weapon training bonus which would then be multiplied to +8 for damage rolls.

This might not be Paizo's stance now that ADTs have gone through development, but in my opinion, we're talking about small bonuses to a class that has been historically weak.

Talk to your GM and if Paizo releases an official statement, use what they say. (And I probably shouldn't be considered a reputable source for the purpose of PFS and the like since I'm not a golem.)

So four levels of Weapon Master for +3 to AWT features and 2-3 AWT feat grabs... not too shabby.


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How do you take the Advanced Weapon Training feat more than once in those four levels? He can't take it at all until 4th level. If he spends his 4th level bonus feat to take it once, then he doesn't have any more feats to spend on taking it more times.


A Fighter can re-train a previous bonus feat at 4, making for 2 - neither of which count towards the normal 1/5 levels limit; so that another is then possible at 5, potentially even if there are only 4 levels of Weapon Master taken. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's late.


Hmm. I'm not that familiar with the retraining rules for Fighters. The feat description says that a Weapon Master can't take it until 4th level. Can you ignore that restriction when retraining feats that were from earlier levels?


Gisher wrote:
Hmm. I'm not that familiar with the retraining rules for Fighters. The feat description says that a Weapon Master can't take it until 4th level. Can you ignore that restriction when retraining feats that were from earlier levels?

Yes, if a Fighter re-trains a bonus feat they simply ditch the old one (assuming it wasn't a prerequisite for something) and take a new one, no questions asked. So at level 4 the Weapon Master can take 2xAWT with bonus feats, and still be eligible for another one.


BadBird wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Hmm. I'm not that familiar with the retraining rules for Fighters. The feat description says that a Weapon Master can't take it until 4th level. Can you ignore that restriction when retraining feats that were from earlier levels?
Yes, if a Fighter re-trains a bonus feat they simply ditch the old one (assuming it wasn't a prerequisite for something) and take a new one, no questions asked. So at level 4 the Weapon Master can take 2xAWT with bonus feats, and still be eligible for another one.

Well, that's a nice thing. How did a martial get that? ;)

The Exchange

It's to make feats like Cleave still useful, because you can retrain before (or 2 levels after) you get iteratives.
Also, to be less harsh on new players who are just "OMG 3 feats at level 1? What do I take???" and then they have Tower Shield Specialist, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Persuasive.


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Covert Operator wrote:

It's to make feats like Cleave still useful, because you can retrain before (or 2 levels after) you get iteratives.

Also, to be less harsh on new players who are just "OMG 3 feats at level 1? What do I take???" and then they have Tower Shield Specialist, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Persuasive.

Hey my fast reacting, charming elf with the big shield was one of my most successful characters I'll have you know!

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