Definitely still here!
As to where my Ravener would fit in Golarion, I'm thinking about making one of her special abilities be equal to the vortex dragons' Galactic Emissary ability, which makes it immune to any effect that bars extra dimensional travel.
This gives her quite a bit of versatility in her combat tactics (Dimensional Whatever) along with the sole ability among undead to be able to enter Gallowspire proper.
Her connections with Rovagug, along with the eons of time spent as a Ravener, has made her quite insane, although not quite insane enough to forgo allies.
And who better to ally with than the Whispering Tyrant himself?
Gallowspire is a safe haven for her, as there are plenty of low and high-level undead to protect her sanctum, as well as the whole fact that no one can get in or out.
Well, glad to see that others ARE still around then! And thanks for clarifying on the Mythicness of our companions!
Have to admit, it is kinda a pity that Path of War classes aren't allowed... I know off an animal companion build that works AMAZINGLY well with the Warlord's Tactical Flanker ability. But, alas. I will have to go without.
Does anyone know off any good archetypes that works well with flanking? I mean, excluding sneak attack obviously. I'm probably going to be going Sacred Huntmaster Inquistor 20/Mammoth Lord 10 | Vivisectionist Alchemist 20 for by second villan, but I need suggestions of how to finish the build.... oh and uh, not just flanking. But Bluffing/Feinting, as well as Attack of Opportunities.
Actually, now that I think about it, do the Animal Companions pick up increased HD? I mean, even with the Advanced Template and the other free template, if their had locked to a max of 16 HD... well, their gonna die. Quickly. Almost no better than a 1 HP minion.
Nothing says inconspicuous like a Tree. Therefore, I'm making an Awakened Quaking Aspen tree with Alchemist and Druid levels, probably to 20, With a smattering of other things, likely Witch or Monk or something, possibly even Master Spy. I'll play with it a bit. The Quaking Aspen "Pando" is one of the heaviest organisms on Earth, covering 106 acres in Utah and is estimated to be 10k-80k years old.
Where's M. Night Shyamalan when you need him?
I stopped asking questions because I build on concepts, not mechanics, and I don't have any ideas for completely evil bad guy save a flood-like thing which is hardly supersmart, and certainly neither subtle, nor scheming, so not really suitable to my understanding of what is needed.
If I get inspired though, for a truly evil bad guy, I will return.
Can I use the 3PP Cavalier Archetype, Inspiring Commander please?
Animal Companions progress ala the epic progression found in the link Fury towards the bottom of page 1.
Inspiring Commander is fine.
... Heh, heh, heh...
This is going to be FUN.
Now the only thing I kinda want is that the cohorts have 1-2 special abilities of their own. That, or the favoured minion (or both). After all, the cohort IS your second in command. Whilst the outsider is likely a pretty powerful ally themselves.
Cohorts can have 1 special ability, and they also get a free template as well from the approved list.
Man you awesome. Also, I just noticed that WE get a template for free as well. Is that the only template we get? Because I don't mind having to pay 2 CR for the Fighter template for my main villain. Plus, if I can still get the Lycnapthorpe template on top of that? Well, I had strong fluff reasons linked to that template, so I would love if I can have both them...
Hmmm. I'm wondering if allowing the class templates might be too much, cuz that's basically making these guys tri-stalt.
I really wouldn't say that. Their simple templates, they don't give you the full abilities. Its basically worth dipping 2-3 levels of the class. Admittedly, those abilities scale better than usual due to the templates scaling on HD instead of class level. But at the same time, your missing out on a lot of cool abilities.
Like, the Monk template gives you Improved Evasion, Wis to AC if unarmored, basic Flurry of Blows, with Natural Attacks, an increase of Natural attack damage, IUS and +4 Dex & Wisdom. Which sounds like a lot I know, but that's 3 levels worth. At the same time however, that's it. You don't getting Stunning Fist, you don't get the Ki Pool, Diamond Body/Soul, Abundant Step, etc.
Same with the Paladin Template. Divine grace, Aura of Resolve, Smite Evil 1/Day, Lay on Hands 1/Day, Detect Evil and +4 Strength and Charisma. That's several uses of Smite Evil and Lay on Hands your losing. No spells, no Channel Energy. No Aura of Courage/Justice/Faith/Righteousness, no Mercies, and no Divine bond either.
Their powerful, I'm not denying that. But they are far, FAR from tri-stalt. Honestly, I've looked over some of the other templates, and Graveknight? 2 levels for what, Str +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4, +4 NA. Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Toughness, amongst other things? Like, I dunno. Being Undead? Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning. nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
I think the class templates are pretty equal in power compared to the other templates being offered here.
So... can we have a good idea when we might get the full Legendary Gift Options, and Epic PDF review done? Not trying to pressure anyone here, I just like having a reasonable schedule, especially as the Legendary Gifts is going to be pretty critical for the character builds. Especially with how its going to affect both you, your cohort, AND your favoured minion. (Assuming that everyone is going by Automatic Progression of course), whilst the Epic Feats give a lot of flexibility and power to classes and builds that they previously didn't have... and I want to get my first Villain 100% completed before I start fleshing out my other Villain.
Of course, need to know if the argument above convinces you to allow the Class Templates to still be taken, through limited to only one of them being allowed of course.
... And admittedly, I already have a base line for the second Villain already, but I do have 20 of his 70 levels still to play around with, so its not like there isn't a lot to play around with afterwards.
I need some time to go over all of the requested material and I haven't had time.
Tues was my rl table top and last night we decided to play the game these villains are for.
Hopefully tonight I'll have the chance to look into everything.
How did he get that high of a bab and what is their general hp, class levels and race.
If you are referring to my PC'S posted attack earlier, that's not his BAB, that's his attack with feats, enchantments etc.
A large portion comes from his weapon having Guided which adds his Wis mod to attack and damage instead of Str.
Alright, that's fair.
Looked over the simple templates, and I stand by my prior ruling: Not allowed. They grant far too much power for just a template, especially at this level and gestalt.
9th level casting, Cha to saves, a really powerful smite, Wis to AC, full 20th level sneak attack, 8 bonus feats, etc.
... Again, I have to disagree here. You are greatly overstating the power of the Class Templates, especially compared to what is already allowed.
Cha to saves? Dip Antipaladin 2, done. I get the Cha to saves, and I still have an extra level to play with. Wis to AC? Monk 1, done. Extra 2 levels to play with. Or you know, I could make either one of them as part of a special ability... in fact, both of them together might be equal to one, what with how they are a level 1 and level 2 ability respectively.
The smite? Once per day. Powerful yes. But its a 1/Day ability, greatly limiting its use. 9th lvl casting? You only get 1 9th level spell, and 2 7-8 level spells. Its strong, yes. But you get very limited resources, and going power is rather important when it comes to Epic games.
Admittedly, Recuperation means that its not as limited as it could be... but you still need an hour's rest in order to regain those abilities.
Graveknight through? Str +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +4, +4 NA. Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, and Toughness. All the immunities of being undead. Spell Resistance, a free resurrection ability. Immunity to cold, electricity and either fire or acid. +8d6 energy damage with every attack, which is approximately equal to the 10d6 sneak attack damage. SA is harder to get, but energy resistance is easier to get as well (through Acid Resist is a little tricky).
Blood Knight? Str +6, Dex +4, Cha +6. Undead. Natural Armour turns into Deflection +1, Fast healing 10, Blood Drain, does Bleed with any slashing or piercing attack, Blood Slick means that everything around him in a 10ft area is difficult terrain and grease.
Dread Lich? Str +4, Dex +2, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4, Undead. Combat Casting, Command Undead, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (necromancy), and Spell Penetration (5 feats), your a lich, so your hard to kill being that you have a Phylactery. FREE EMPOWERED SPELL to all neromantic and evil spells and SLA's. Cursed Touch, -4 penalty to dispell his magic, polymorph immunity, immunity to cold and electricity, and Perfect Flight.
Seriously. I fail to see how the class templates are anymore powerful that the huge amounts of stuff given to you by the already allowed templates. Actually, I fail to see how these templates aren't MORE powerful than the class templates! Plus, you could always just ban the Wizard/Sorcerer template, or rule that the scaling of the templates only goes up to 20 HD, as they aren't designed to scale higher.
A capstone is a level 20 ability yes.
I have a few questions!
- How Lovecraftian do you want the villain to be?
- How deadly do you want it?
- Do you want something just weird and powerful or something that will horrify players IC and OOC?
- How deep is your class pool? Do you have access to Time Thief and such through d20pfsrd?
I have a feeling, Fury, that he also doesn't want you to grab the simple class template just because of the power.
I mean, yeah, you could take the Wizard Template.
Or you could go with the Dread Lich. In a situation where we are creating villains this powerful and unique, I believe a little bit of creativity is warranted, and just giving your villian any of the simple class templates doesn't really fit the bill.
I have a feeling, Fury, that he also doesn't want you to grab the simple class template just because of the power.
I mean, yeah, you could take the Wizard Template.
Or you could go with the Dread Lich. In a situation where we are creating villains this powerful and unique, I believe a little bit of creativity is warranted, and just giving your villian any of the simple class templates doesn't really fit the bill.
Why not?
Why not have them have a fighter's training, maybe they trained often during their long live, or got taught a trick or two by a friend. But never committed fully to the full martial training of a fighter.
Why not have them be from a family or clan of thieves and rouges, and whilst they ended up taking a different path. Still remembered how to take advantage of an opponent's weakness. Something they developed and got better at as time went on.
Maybe they came from a monastic temple, and got thrown out for breaking the rule/not following their code. Thus their training was never completed. However, they still practice what they learned to this day, and using it as a foundation to grow up off.
There is just as much fluff and thematic possibility from the simple class templates than the others... no, there is MORE fluff & thematic possibilities from the simply class templates than being a Dread Lich or a Graveknight. Those have fluff built into the template, somewhat restricting you. The simple class templates? They don't.
Why not?
Because there are actual classes you can take levels in to represent that.
Fighter's training? Grab a few levels in fighter.
Family of rogues? Slayer, ranger, rogue, etc.
Monk? If you become non-lawful, you can't advance monk levels, but you don't lose any class features.
You have two sides of 35 levels (minus CR), there's plenty of room to fit whatever levels you think you need to represent what you want.
While this is quite a high power level, I just feel like the class simple templates is "cheating" in a sense.
Pretty much everything Bigrig said is why I'm not allowing the class templates.
They are a straight up power grab, because that is literally what Owen designed then for. To add onto a monster to make it more challenging and unique, without extra levels which increase the CR too much.
Okay, so here's a crazy idea. During my time in Japan, I thought of a VERY awesome creature... and built it! It was designed as a CR30/Mythic10 creature, but I can adjust it. I will post stats for the creature if you like the idea. It is something that I plan to actually release at some point in a mythic monster book.
This is just a VERY brief rundown on the being.
Name: Unknown, known to the ancients as 'The Empyrean'
Physical appearance: It appears as a strange composite of flower and tentacled old god made out of a glowing material that is somewhere between a viscous liquid and a diamond-hard crystal. It pulses with a radiance that is almost like a heartbeat. It's tentacles wave hypnotically in the air.
Personality: Unknowable, but definitely inimical to life in the current cosmos.
Rippling Paradox: Starting the first round of combat, the Empyrean 'saves' 6 rounds of combat. This requires the GM to note what ALL rolls did. On the sixth round, the Empyrean chooses three of those rolls and flexes time to warp the events of those rolls, causing them to be counted as natural 1s and applies them retroactively to combat. This repeats every 6 rounds. Cannot be applied to saves against Annihilate Consciousness.
NO SAVE
Reality Schism: Every 1d4 rounds, the Empyrean pulls a duplicate of a PC from an alternate timeline. This duplicate is an exact copy of the PC but has 3 negative levels. The duplicate has whatever buffs and equipment the PC currently has on him. The duplicate is immediately hostile to the PC and his allies.
NO SAVE
Psionics: The Empyrean has a manifester level of 30, can use powers from any psionic class, and all powers are automatically treated as their mythic counterparts. The Empyrean has 1,000 power points and is immune to effects that negate it's ability to use psionics.
NORMAL SAVES
Destructive Siphon: The Empyrean continuously drains the minds of those near it, draining either power points or, if the target has no power points, mental ability scores. It heals five times the amount of the drain.
NORMAL SAVES
Annihilate Consciousness: The Empyrean can use it's infinite consciousness to crush a PC's mind as a full round action. The PC makes multiple WILL saves. If no save is failed, the PC is counted as shaken. If one save is failed, the PC's brain hemorrages, caused a large amount of initial damage and bleed damage. If two saves are failed, the PC is stunned for several rounds and suffers the above damage. If all three saves are failed, the PC's mind is completely destroyed and replaced by a copy seeded by the Empyrean. This slays the PC and raises him the next round with the psionic lich template under the complete control of the Empyrean. PCs who save are immune to this ability for 3 minutes (30 rounds).
NORMAL SAVES
Hypnotic Tendrils: The Empyrean can weave it's tentacles as a free action, creating a hypnotic effect that can effect targets as per fascination.
NORMAL SAVES, set low enough to only affect followers, familiars, and such.
Unreality: The Empyrean's alien physiology constantly shifts between dimensions. This translates into EVERY attack having a 25% miss chance. It can also outright ignore one attack per round.
NO SAVE
Infinite Consciousness: The Empyrean is immune to all mind-affecting effects, death effects, and similar status effects. It also regenerates 10 power points per round.
NO SAVE
Reactive Spasm: Once below 50% HP, the Empyrean's mind spasms in pain. This unleashes a wave of psionic energy that reflects the injury it receives to all targets within 30 feet.
NORMAL SAVES
I think that fits the role quite nicely, if I do say so myself!
Edit: The Empyrean would be the Veiled Master BEHIND the Veiled Masters!
Hmm, what about a anti-hero villain type? Bit more explanation, I have a NPC that is a level 20 witch (white haired) level 5 gunslinger (techslinger) (though she could easily be remade gestalt) who is also mythic 10 Marshal/Archmage (Dual Path feat.) She's not a bad person, but she hates the gods. The way she sees it, since she can be worshipped and grant spells (she refuses to grant spells) does that make her a god? No, the gods are just mythic beings who are trying to control the masses. Tear down the gods. As for alignment, she doesn't have one (Beyond Morality, Mythic ability) although technically she's originally neutral. She's not truly a villain, but she'll be at odds with nearly any party since most are going to worship the gods. :P
If you are interested in her full stats, let me know (also cause I'll have to bump her up to gestalt)
If you want just one of the nine Veiled Masters though, I can certainly build one! Just thought I would offer a crazy awesome BBEG!
An idea that I had, if you wanted something other than a godmind-style creature, is a shapeshifting plant creature that serves as the assassin of the Veiled Masters.
Yea, Red, that's way too alien for what I'm looking for. While it could possibly be a BBEG that might end up getting revealed as the power behind the Veiled Masters, that's not what these villains are.
You read all the prior posts right? Also, if you've watched Young Justice 'The Light' is a decent example.
Why not?
Because there are actual classes you can take levels in to represent that.Fighter's training? Grab a few levels in fighter.
Family of rogues? Slayer, ranger, rogue, etc.
Monk? If you become non-lawful, you can't advance monk levels, but you don't lose any class features.You have two sides of 35 levels (minus CR), there's plenty of room to fit whatever levels you think you need to represent what you want.
While this is quite a high power level, I just feel like the class simple templates is "cheating" in a sense.
Pretty much everything Bigrig said is why I'm not allowing the class templates.
They are a straight up power grab, because that is literally what Owen designed then for. To add onto a monster to make it more challenging and unique, without extra levels which increase the CR too much.
No.
They are not a straight up power grab.
Why?
Because they give you an option that taking a few levels in a class doesn't give you. SCALING power.
I take 2 levels of fighter. I get 2 combat feats. That's it. Nothing that shows that I've spent YEARS training with a weapon master to improve my combat skills.
2 levels of rogue? +1d6 sneak attack. Sure, I had training from a family of rogues. But it means I never actually trained with it or worked at it, even whilst my path takes me elsewhere.
2 levels of monk? Well, you actually get more bonus feats that way. But, you don't get Improved Evasion, or an increase to your AC. Both of which reflect you continued training and improving on the foundations that your childhood laid out, whilst still walking a much darker path.
Are the simple class templates powerful? Yes.
Are they devoid of thematic potential? F$+! NO. They have more thematic potential than anything else for the amount of levels you use to get them! The simple class templates are AMAZING due to the fact they give you scaling power that other templates or class levels simply does not grant, and thus they come with their own unquie thematic possibilities.
Denying them due to being 'simply power grabs', is just showing a GROSS lack of imagination and creativity.
Ok, I tried being nice. It didn't work. Try this:
I am the GM, and I have banned the simple class templates. This discussion is now closed and over.
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...
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Fine. Be unreasonable then.
Could of simply debated the matter. But noooooo. You had to play 'I'm the DM so what I says goes' rule. Which is NOT a sign of a good DM.
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Looked over the simple templates, and I stand by my prior ruling: Not allowed. They grant far too much power for just a template, especially at this level and gestalt.
9th level casting, Cha to saves, a really powerful smite, Wis to AC, full 20th level sneak attack, 8 bonus feats, etc.
Not really trying to start a fight or be difficult, Fury.
But it does seem that he did debate the matter quite a bit, said they were still banned, had you argue, stated again that they were still banned, had you argue, and then finally pull the "I'm the DM" card.
Which, I'll add, isn't a sign of a bad GM at all. Sometimes a GM, even one in which we're not players, has to put his foot down and let people know that certain options are off the table, no matter what the arguments for said options are.
Again, I mean this in the most positive light, and am not trying to personally attack you or specifically defend Monkeygod.
Just saying how I see the situation.
I'm afraid I don't see how he debated the manner quite a bit. He said that he was wondering if the class templates were too powerful, I objected stating that they were not.
He said they were banned - it was NOT a prior ruling - listening the examples why he thought they were too powerful. I argued that he was overstating the power of the class templates, arguing that the other templates had their own strength and powers as well.
It was only THEN that the entire argument about them being 'simple power grabs' were brought up. I made what, one, two posts arguing about them not being simple power grabs, that the scaling power granted gives you a lot of thematic possibility that the other templates simply do not grant, and cannot be replicated by simply grabbing levels in those classes.
And then I got the 'I'm the DM' card
I'm sorry... but I fail to see how he debated the matter quite a bit. Hell, he didn't even ACKNOWLEDGE that yes, the simple class templates DO have a strong thematic possibility.
I admit, I have difficulty accepting a no. Accepting the end of a debate. But... when I make a post rebuting the points made as to why the simple class templates should not be allowed due to being simple power grabs that taking actual class levels fixes easily... and all I get is 'I'm the DM, I said no'.
It doesn't do much to improve one's mood...
I guess my core problem with us using the simple class templates is that I don't understand how you're getting that "thematic possibility" that can't be replicated by actually taking class levels. I understand that certain flavor is baked into the templates, but there are so many different types of templates that are so much more than "this one's better at fighting" or "this one kinda developed full casting".
I just don't see how not being forced to take levels in the actual class to gain the benefits of those levels leads to any extra story-telling abilities, but that's just me.
If I was fighting one of these boss monster thingies, I'd much rather it be a "insert specific template here" than just a monster with some bonus feats, bravery, and armor/weapon training. Or nine levels of casting tacked on for no reason. Or whatever else.
Honestly, even if advanced/class simple templates/whatever were allowed, I wouldn't even think about using any of them.
Regardless, He hath spoken, and His word is law.
Because it's was shaping up to be an endless circular argument.
You flat out deny the templates are power grabs, despite that being the specific and literal intent behind their creation.
Just because one can add thematical flavor to them does not alter their purpose.
Just because other templates are more powerful does not negate their intent.
As Brgrig said above, the templates I listed are to make your creation unique, especially with all the other rules I've given you.
No matter how many pages of awesome backstory you write, a demon with the fighter template is still just a fighter.
However, a demon who is also a half dragon or a vampire is way more interesting and unique.
Would it be possible, Monkeygod, for you to compile another set of character creation rules for us?
There have been some major changes, and sifting through the pages to find every exact rule for the creation of these beasts is getting tedious.
... Just because they were designed to be simple additions of power. Doesn't mean that they are just simple additions of power. Especially when there is so much thematic possibility from them which NOTHING else has.
Like, take my Villian. She has spent the majority of her life improving her psionic potential, and wielding her chosen weapon, the Chakram's, to an absolute mastery. Blending psionic power and skill with that weapon. As evidenced by how she is a Soulknife 15/Psychic Warrior 10/Dark Tempest10 | Stuff 15 / Chakram Dervish Fighter 20.
HOWEVER. Whilst she primarily focused on the Chakram above all else. She was trained how to fight with throwing weapons in general, and learned a trick or two from that training which she can use with her general fighting style. As evidenced by her Thrown Weapon Training AND Extra Bonus Feats from THE FIGHTER CLASS TEMPLATE.
BOOM. Thematic potential that NOTHING else can give. Especially as she had already taken the Fighter class itself. A demon with a fighter template has MUCH more potential thematically than a vampire demon or a half-dragon demon.
Perhaps the demon didn't feel like their infernal powers were strong enough, and thus trained and trained and trained to further their martial powers? Perhaps the demon is part of a demonic order, specializing in martial combat and mastery? Or maybe the demon hid their demonic nature in order to train under a weaponmaster, only to reveal their strength once they had learned everything they could and slew them so no one else they learned their secrets?
Have I made my point yet? That the class templates have great thematically flavour? That simply because they were designed to simply be ways of gaining power, it doesn't mean that they are automatically nothing but powergrabs?
If you don't want the class templates in your game. Fine. Your the DM, its your decision in the end.
However, that doesn't mean you have to label them as simple power grabs, when they have so much potential for flavour that the other templates and classes simply does not give you.
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I'm gonna be real (almost brutally, possibly) honest here for a second.
I strongly disagree that a "fighter" demon is cooler, flavor-wise, than a half-dragon demon.
Are you really saying that a demon with some bonus feats, bonuses to attack and damage with some specific weapons, and +4 Strength is cooler than explaining the story behind the dragon-demon? Or watching the abilities granted by the half-dragon template mesh with the crap ton of other abilities the actual demon itself and whatever class levels you have left?
Because if so, that's completely ridiculous.
You seem to want to either double up on bonus feats and and weapon/armor training, etc., or being able to grab those benefits without sacrificing actual class levels to do so.
Which, by definition, is a power grab.
Bonus feats, bravery, armor training. and weapon training don't have any inherent flavor in and of themselves.
You saying that there is "thematic flavor" in those abilities really points to the fact that it is actually just a power grab.
"Thematic potential that NOTHING else can give"? How about the actual classes those abilities came from, with the same names and functionality and everything?
Because it seems to me the most flavorful way to specifically represent your villain's training with thrown weapons is to actually have her train with thrown weapons; "spending" her XP on fighter levels pretty easily accomplishes the exact level of training you're trying to accomplish with these templates.
As to your other examples, how does the monk-template demon training with a demonic martial arts order differ from the demon monk that trained with a demonic martial arts order?
You're basically presenting the idea that out of these two exactly identical things (the fighter template and 20 actual levels in the fighter class) that grant the exact same benefits, both mechanically and name-wise (bonus feats, armor/weapon training), one is "more thematically flavorful" than the other. And, you have decided that the free (in terms of "spending" class levels) option is somehow that more flavorful option.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Fine.
If you can't see the thematic possibilities of the templates.
We obviously have very different imaginations.
Seriously through. What's so special about a half dragon demon? All it means is that a dragon and demon f*$$ed. There's nothing special about that. Nothing that makes that super special awesome, whilst the class templates are super mega lame.
Either way, this discussion is over.
Actually no, it never was a discussion in the first place was it?
After all. Neither of you actually paid attention to what I was saying. Just repeating 'Class Templates are Power Grabs and Nothing More' like robots. Whilst I actually acknowledged and countered your points.
Not gonna clutter the entire thread, so.
You're actually wrong, I can see the "thematic possibilities" of taking the fighter class template. That doesn't mean I can't also see that you claiming you're taking it for purely flavor reasons is absurd.
Don't you realize how ridiculous it sounds when you claim you're taking the bonus feats and training offered by the fighter template merely because you want your villain to be "trained in combat"? Just take the fighter levels if you want the benefits therein.
It's actually a bit insulting for you to outright state that any of my posts on the subject have been anything remotely robotic, and makes me think you are the one who is ignoring the opposite side all robotic-like (ya know, since you've just repeated the same "thematic" argument a few times already). That, coupled with your accusation about him playing the "I'm the DM" card and insinuating he's a bad idea is actually pretty rude, whether you realize it or not.
You said that the fighter template offers more thematic varieties than half-dragon.
Can I ask how, exactly, the things that the fighter template grants you (literally only bonus feats, +4 Strength, and armor/weapon training) is more "special" than half-dragon?
I'm failing to see how this one set of purely mechanical advantages, separated from any form of flavor at all, is more flavorful than pretty much any other template behind Advanced, Giant, and their cousins.
The "thematic possibilities" of the template? You mean..."fight better, but without sacrificing any of my actual levels"? Because that's pretty much what you get from the fighter template (choosing that one because of your specific example, showing you again that I am responding to your side).
As to the implications of the half-dragon template, it actually specifically mentions what you seem to think about it.
Half-dragons are only rarely the result of dragons mating with other creatures—most are the result of strange magical experiments. In most cases, a successful creation breeds true with others of its kind, as with the dreaded dracolisk.
Earlier, you mentioned specific flavor being attached to these different templates by default, but it seems as if you are the ones tracking the single flavor to the templates.
Perhaps that half-dragon demon leans more to his demon side and just destroys everything, or leans more towards his dragon side and collects art and treasure while resisting the urge to destroy them.
Overall, I believe this discussion (because that's what it is) is becoming too hostile. There's no reason for us to be arguing, as he has already made his decision, and anything beyond what has already been said will just lead to more hostility.
Not even going to read that.
I'm done. I'm not discussing this any longer.
Not sure that's the appropriate response, and I'm sorry if this has created any undue tension between us.
I didn't mean to create a conflict, honestly.
Just things I needed to say.
Yes well... in my experience its the 'things I needed to say', from me or the other-side that creates a conflict.
Best to just agree to disagree and stop things here.
Anyway... I'm going to wait for the PDF review and extra legendary gifts to be completely before revising Keleran.
Oh yeah!
I completely forgot about those legendary gifts.
Any idea on those extra gifts you talked about, Monkeygod?
I think one of the things he was going to go with, was additional mythic abilities. Whenever that me extra path abilities, extra mythic feats, or straight up more mythic power uses I have no idea.
Wouldn't mind ways to increase the ability bonuses beyond the +6 enchantment and +5 inherent, or pushing the weapon and armor enchantment beyond +5. But, considering the entire argument about uniqueness vs power. I think we'll be seeing more creative uses than that.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to some pretty cool stuff in that department.
Do note, I believe he said armor and weapons are bought normally?
I assume that means we don't get the attunement stuff for free.
Yeah, I figured. Kinda weird considering that the attunement was a big part of automatic progression, but *shrugs*