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Penalties: So, in addition to the restriction on action economy and limited number of uses, you also take -4 AC in addition to the penalty of challenge, leaving you particularly vulnerable to other targets in exchange for a few extra d6's on one attack that can't crit (which seems to go against the spirit of brutal slash at level 3).Depends.
If the target of your challenge dies, then the penalty to AC from challenge goes away (instantly, as far as I can tell). Your still left with that -4 AC. It's clearly designed to be a one-hit-wonder attack.
I do think the damage gained is low, given that the Sword Saint is unable to use two hands to wield their sword. Then again, as the target of the challenge, you are adding your level to the damage too.
Not sure, but I do think power attack could be used with Iaijutsu Strike. Mind you, if you miss the target, you can't try again, which really makes any ability that lowers your attack roll seem iffy.
So, level 1 Small Sword Saint with katana is 2d6+1+Str with Iaijutsu Strike. You've also got an 18-20 crit range to multiply 1d6+1+Str into 2d6+2+(2xStr), which totals to 3d6+2+(2xStr) via Iaijutsu Strike.
So, with Abadar's Measured Response feat (pretty sure it applies here) and a 14 strength, the katana halfling sword saint is doing 10 damage with normal Iaijutsu Strike, and 16 on a crit.
That seems like pretty sturdy damage for a level 1, even with a relatively low strength mod and the small version of the weapon. Especially given that it doesn't require the opponent to do anything other than be hit.
Also, I was thinking before that the Swift action for challenge would require an additional round, as I forgot that you can swift on the turn you make a full round action. So, if they come to you, Iaijutsu Stike could function in a single round. Less of a blue moon ability now.
All true. For not being the normal rage frothing greatsword/club wielding barbarian, 10 damage on a hit at level 1 isn't bad, in fact that's better than my level 4 inquisitor waiting for dex to damage to come online. :) It's still a lot of hoops to jump through to maybe kill a guy at level 1. My sammy hasn't been level one for a long time so I wasn't thinking in those terms. For the rest of your levels, the weakness of the 'one-hit-wonder' shows. Once iterative attacks come into play, you're far more vulnerable from the AC reduction and, I believe, you'll lose a fair amount of damage potential from not using your iteratives to iajutsu strike.
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All true. For not being the normal rage frothing greatsword/club wielding barbarian, 10 damage on a hit at level 1 isn't bad, in fact that's better than my level 4 inquisitor waiting for dex to damage to come online. :) It's still a lot of hoops to jump through to maybe kill a guy at level 1. My sammy hasn't been level one for a long time so I wasn't thinking in those terms. For the rest of your levels, the weakness of the 'one-hit-wonder' shows. Once iterative attacks come into play, you're far more vulnerable from the AC reduction and, I believe, you'll lose a fair amount of damage potential from not using your iteratives to iajutsu strike.
And that 10 damage is with a 14 strength and the small version of a katana.
With an 18 strength and medium katana, it goes up a bit. At level 1, 1d8+1d6+5, or 2d8+1d6+10 on a crit. And with Abadar's Measured Response, that's 13 on a normal hit and 22 on a critical.
Does definitely seem like a class ability I'd be very gear dependent with, as magic weapon enhancements would really be helpful here. Plus DR would be a big problem.
Your Order also seems like it would play a rather large role in the viability, as the Iaijutsu Strike only works against a challenged target.
My plan for this character is the Order of the Green (Heroes of the Wild).
Base challenge ability is +1 morale bonus on attack rolls (more at later levels). With an additional rolling 2 dice and picking the highest at the start of every round if the target is undead or an aberation. Drawback is that I can't challenge plants or animals.
Still, does sound pretty solid with Iaijutsu Strike. Things that help hit the target, really seem like solid options here, as the main issue with Iaijutsu Strike happens when you miss.
Order of the flame would be pretty scary offensively, but I doubt you'd survive long with those stacking penalties to AC, especially if combined with Iaijutsu Strike's -4 AC...
Also,
Anyway, there are many times I've regretted taking the archetype as the banner ability would have been used more often than any aspect of iajutsu;
I do like banner. Though I did find an interesting feat that could help in place of banner:
"Battlecry (Combat Feat)
Benefit: A number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus, you can let out a battle cry as a swift action. When you do, allies within 30 feet who can hear you gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear. This effect lasts for 1 minute.
If an ally is under the effect of this feat and fails a saving throw against a fear effect, she can choose to end the battle cry’s effect on her to reroll the failed save. The ally must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s lower. Each ally can use this effect only once per use of this feat."
It's no banner, but it is similar. This feat requires only CHA 13 and would be available at the same level as banner (requires +5 BAB or perform 5).
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Curiosity about my buddy's Sword Saint
Another thing I know he has is roughly 40 AC consistently. I forgot that he's not a straight Sword Saint, but he dipped 2 levels in Monk of the Iron Mountain for saves, free toughness, and some other stuff.
Waiting for him to come in so he can explain how he operates. >.>
I don't think anyone is doubting that a martial character can be effective. The point being made here is that the Sword Saint is terribly written, it's not clear what abilities are traded out or at what level, and that Iaijutsu Strike is extremely limited in action economy.
and actively worse from level 6-10 than any other full attack.
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Hello. I'm the person Brigg is referring to.
First, Brigg has overstated my HP. My Sword Saint currently sits at 132 HP.
When I play my sword saint, the number one rule for me is you only need one Iaijutsu strike for the BBEG. This means there is no real need to hold on to your challenges. You should try to use 1 challenge during each fight, but save the last one for the boss. I begin all fights with my katana in its sheath.
"But then I'm not threatening!"
Enter Improved Unarmed Strike. Taking two levels of monk (for me Monk of Iron Mountain shores up my poor Reflex and Will saves, gives me Dodge and Toughness, and a stackable +1 natural armor bonus, and most importantly, IUS. This also helps you get into crane style, which is insane for a Sword Saint.
Using crane style, I always fight defensively only taking a -1 to my attack roll, and the bonus from crane wing improves my AC to a solid 40, but dropping to 36 against ranged and if an enemy rolls between 37-40 in a melee attack, the former which provokes AOO by way of Crane Riposte. Also, Scabbard of Vigor is your friend here.
This archetype gets the most out of the Samurai's weapon expertise feature. You were born to critical hit. Get your chosen weapon keen remember that Brutal Iaijutsu counts half of your samurai levels for confirming critical hits. This archetype craves critical focus. Remember that Weapon Expertise (the Samurai feature)also gives you quick draw with your chosen weapon with makes the following tactic work:
Turn 1: get into enemy's face and fight defensively with a punch to the face OR walk up to him and total defense.
Enemy turn: will either
1. attempt to strike my which usually misses or worse for them ends up provoking.
2. attempt to cast either defensively or or 5ft step and cast, or will move and cast
3. will move around me to go to an easier target.
Turn 2:
#1: Let 'em have it. Declare your challenge and Iaijutsu Strike away.
#2: 5ft up to them (or step up if you have it) and Iaijutsu Strike if they haven't gone invisible or flew away (remember your resolve for those pesky Will saves). What if they moved away? Well, you've likely drawn the attention of the caster's allies seeing you go after their fragile buddy. In such cases, they've fallen into your trap and saved you your move action. Declare challenge on the one who approached you and Iaijutsu Strike. Will it always happen this way? No, but this also helps to shape the battlefield in your allies favor, which leads us to
#3: Get into flank with the ally the target moved to, or in some cases when fighting defensively for the turn, take your AoO if they fail to move through your threatened squares. If neither of these apply, you can either save the challenge and draw and fight normally, or charge to another potential target and start from turn 1 again.
It's not perfect, but it's been effective for me and I have survived Bone Keep 3 with this character. The only real gripes I have is that I wish I could take the Call Out feat(PPC: People of the River), but for some reason it is banned. I'd take Antagonize but I heard its much maligned by players and GMs alike.
Terrifying Iajutsu, however, is rather lackluster and I would have preferred to have kept Banner. The upside to it is that it doesn't take any additional actions to activate the ability.
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Hello. I'm the person Brigg is referring to.
Good to finally hear from you. Very glad to know the class works. Sounds like you've got a pretty nice build, too.
I'll probably go another route, not that yours is lacking, but that it's a bit off of how I'd do things (personal preference).
I don't think anyone is doubting that a martial character can be effective. The point being made here is that the Sword Saint is terribly written, it's not clear what abilities are traded out or at what level, and that Iaijutsu Strike is extremely limited in action economy.and actively worse from level 6-10 than any other full attack.
6-9, you mean. It's a standard action at 10th.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) the class archetype says ... "swords" ... It does not explain which weapons qualify as swords for this archetype. So I assume this is answered elsewhere.
2) the "Brutal Slash (Ex)" replaces "mounted charge" in the archetype
Again, Suggestions?
I don't know of any official answers
The way RAW works (and PFS is RAW) is that the Gm determines what the abilities do and how they work.
So any form of ambiguity, will result in table variance. So with this ability:
You will have variance on:
- Whether "Swords" include Katana.
- Whether "Swords" is limited to things with the word "sword" in them.
- Whether "Swords" includes Fighter blade groups.
- Whether Brutal Slash is a freebie ability since you don't have "mounted charge".
- Whether Brutal Slash refers to "mounted archer" instead of "mounted charge".
In short, like Overrun. Don't play this ability unless you are ok with it working differently at different tables.
Sword Saint works out fine if you spend the first 9 levels ignoring it, and then build for Felling Smash or something. Wait... does Iaijutsu Strike work with 'attack action'? F&*#ing gong show.
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Would you be willing to provide a breakdown on how you get 132 hp and up to 40 AC on Gamanmaru?
Here goes:
HP
level 1st: Samurai (Sword Saint)=D10+CON(+5)+Favored Class=16
level 2nd: Monk (of the Iron Mountain)=D8=(4+1)+CON(+5)+FC=+11=27 Total
level 3rd: Same as 2nd, but now add in Toughness(+3), so 11+3+27=41
level 4th: Samurai D10(5+1)+CON(+5)+FC+Toughness=13+41=54
level 5th: " " "54+13=67
level 6th: " " "67+13=80
level 7th: " " "80+13=93
level 8th: " " "93+13=106
level 9th: " " "106+13=119
level 10 : " " "119+13=132 (current)
level 11 : " " "132+13=145
level 12 : Stat point goes into my CON making it 22(+6), so 145+13+12=170
AC=Base 10+11(+3 O-Yoroii)+1(Defender of Society Trait)+1 DEX+1 (Dodge)+ 2 Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier w/ Fate's Favored trait+ 2 Ring of Deflection(2)+1 Monk archetype+2 Amulet of Natural Armor(2)+1 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone=base 32
Base 32+4 Fighting Defensively (2+1 for 3 ranks in Acrobatics+1 Crane Style)+4 Crane Wing( vs. Melee, can be dropped)= AC 40 vs. melee, 36 vs. Ranged
Total Defense AC=32+4 Crane Wing+4 Total Defense+1 Crane Style+2(3 ranks in Acro)=43
Crane Wing allows me to deflect 1 melee attack that would hit me while in Total Defense
I built my Samurai more for tankyness than damage, but the fact that I critical hit 30% of the time helps to offset that.
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[list]Whether "Swords" include Katana.
There is no call for variance there, at all. If a DM invalidates a build because a katana, of all things, is not a sword, you are missing nothing except frustration by leaving.
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Would you be willing to provide a breakdown on how you get 132 hp and up to 40 AC on Gamanmaru?Here goes:
*Numbers*
Awesome. Thanks G! That's pretty straight forward. Looks like I'm not too far from your base. I believe I use mithril four-mirror +1 (+7), Dex +2?, RoP +1, Shield Spell +4, and Barkskin +2 for a base of 26. It was the fighting defensively + Crane Wing combo that really widens the gap on AC, so I thought I was missing something. Given that my -1 is a Crane Wing Monk 12, I should have known better. :)
As far as hp, as soon as I saw the +5 from CON, it was an "Ah." moment. Certainly that plus toughness does most of the heavy lifting for accruing hp. Definitely a nice idea to rely on crits to balance damage in a tanky build. Thanks for sharing!
Out of curiosity, what allowed you to apply your favored class bonus for the 2 level dip in monk? I thought multiple FCB's were only available to half-elves.
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Out of curiosity, what allowed you to apply your favored class bonus for the 2 level dip in monk? I thought multiple FCB's were only available to half-elves.
Oops, I done goofed. Should be 130 HP currently.
One error that I spotted, though: the Defender of the Society trait is only selectable by the Fighter class.
Doesn't the Samurai Weapon Expertise class ability qualify me for that?
Weapon Expertise (Ex): At 3rd level, a samurai gains an unparalleled expertise with his chosen weapons. At 3rd level, the samurai selects either the katana, longbow, naginata, or wakizashi. The samurai can draw the selected weapon as a free action as if he had the Quick Draw feat. In addition, whenever he threatens a critical hit with the selected weapon, he gains a +2 bonus on the confirmation roll. Finally, his samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with any fighter levels he possesses for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats that specifically select his chosen weapon, such as Weapon Specialization.
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I would think he has the Eclectic feat for humans that gives them a second favored class.
If he has the Int for it, Fast Learner might be an interesting addition. No more hit points, but some more skill points...
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Doesn't the Samurai Weapon Expertise class ability qualify me for that?
Finally, his samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with any fighter levels he possesses for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats that specifically select his chosen weapon, such as Weapon Specialization.
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One error that I spotted, though: the Defender of the Society trait is only selectable by the Fighter class.Doesn't the Samurai Weapon Expertise class ability qualify me for that?
Finally, his samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with any fighter levels he possesses for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites for feats that specifically select his chosen weapon, such as Weapon Specialization.
He only counts as a fighter for feats. And even there, only for feats that specify the weapon he selected for weapon expertise.
Plus, even if the Class Feature counted as the needed prerequisite, you still couldn't have taken the Trait at 1st level, since you don't gain Weapon Expertise until 3rd.
You can gain them later via the Additional Traits Feat, as far as I understand. That said, he still doesn't qualify.
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Anyway, got a game in. Disaster of a game. Merchant's Wake with all level 1s (one level 2 PC). Mission was way too hard for our PCs, which was the main issue.
Still, highlights include 2 entire combats spent unconscious with my sword saint. At one point, our neutral good fighter decided to ignore the zombie by the sword saint so they could coup de grâce an unconscious assassin (a non-evil NPC, at that...). Our GM did talk to them about that.
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Well that's a bit disparaging. What if I took a level of (Relic Hunter) Fighter?
I don't know if I want to slow the progression of Iaijutsu strike anymore than I have already, but getting access to UMD as a class skill means I could carry a wand of Bull Strength around, and take Critical Focus in the immediate.
There's a trait that grants UMD as a class skill, and +2 bonus on top of it. No need to take a level in another class, if you don't want to. Either retrain one of your traits or take the 'extra traits' feat.
==Aelryinth
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There's a trait that grants UMD as a class skill, and +2 bonus on top of it. No need to take a level in another class, if you don't want to. Either retrain one of your traits or take the 'extra traits' feat.
==Aelryinth
I think he was asking for making the one trait, Defender of the Society, legal. And, yes, as long as the class is Fighter, it would count, even if it gets archetypes.
Of course, there is at least one Fighter archetypes where the trait would be useless, since the archetype trades out the medium and heavy armor proficiencies...