The fact that you feel the ambient level is what matter for HiPS, not the effective level.
So it is your position that you can't hide from an elf using HiPS during a moonlit night?
No. A character can use HiPS during a moonlit night. A character with low light vision would need to make a Perception check to see them, but would have no miss chance in combat against them if the check was made.
The effective level is only for determining what the character can see. It is not the ambient level, which is what HiPS uses to determine the character's ability to use Stealth.
And this, to me, is clearly a case of negating a huge benefit of Low Light Vision. You are ignoring the fact that they see "as well as during the day". And during the day, you cannot use HiPS against the elf.
In all cases of stealth, the ability to stealth is based off what the observer can see. You act like that isn't the case. Dim Light allows people to use stealth. This is true even against an elf. What changes is the area that is Dim Light, not how the elf views Dim Light.
You are giving one half of the benefit of LLV, but not the other. You are basing how it works on Ambient Light Levels for some things and Effective Light Levels for others. I find this odd. Nothing about HiPS says it ignores the abilities of True Seeing, Darkvision, or Low Light Vision, but you have chosen to ignore the benefits of all of them. It is as if HiPS lives in a rules bubble and cannot be affected by any other rule.
For good measure.
Low light, darkvision, and true seeing do not remove areas of dim light. They just allow characters to see through them without penalty.
The dim light is still present.
Page 173 of the CRB says nothing about LLV seeing through Dim Light. This is a common misconception. It states that the area 20'-40' from a torch that is normally Dim Light, is Normal Light to them.
It also does not say that LLV sees through darkness. It states that the area 41'-80' from a torch is Dim Light. Notice how the character with LLV is still affected by Dim Light the same exact way as a character without it? It is just a different place.
That is the key to our difference of opinion, I think. In my view, elves don't see THROUGH Dim Light, they change where the Dim Light is.
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Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point Komoda is either a troll, stubborn, or just completely ignoring the rules quoted at him. He believes that he knows all and will not alter his belief that one's effective viewing of a location completely obliterates any shadows that are actually there. Even though they do still exist, and as been pointed out many a time that HiPS by Shadowdancer does not care if the viewer can see the Dim Light or not, just that it exists. He is of the belief that a Shadowdancer cannot use the ability, because they can never be within 10ft of Dim light, due to having Darkvision. At this point, he can keep arguing it, but this conversation gives me a headache because of how much I am watching myself and others slam our heads against a brick wall known as Komoda.
I wish you all luck in convincing him of the actual rules, but I know the rules work as many of us have tried explaining to him. And I will now depart this thread.
And to Komoda, I mean no insult to you with this, but perhaps one should go into a discussion with an open mind. Your ideals on how the ability work make it so the ability cannot work. I am in favor of the ability actually working, and the rules support that belief. I hope you can understand.
And a quote for him saying that Darkvision doesn't ignore Miss chance: "In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness." As for whether or not LLV ignores this, he is correct in this one thing. LLV does not remove the miss chance from Dim Light, it only expands the amount of light one can see.
For good measure.
Low light, darkvision, and true seeing do not remove areas of dim light. They just allow characters to see through them without penalty.
The dim light is still present.
Here is another analogy. Dim Light is a concept, like danger is a concept.
Take a torch. It gives off both light and danger of burning.
Imagine a normal human and an elf that is immune to fire.
The the human, the fire gives off Dim Light from 21'-40' away. It also poses the risk of burning his hands.
But to the elf the Dim Light is moved to 41'-80' away. And there is no danger of burning his hands.
Nothing about the torch changed. But the Dim Light and the Danger both are different between these two characters.
These are concepts, not physical things. Dim light is not a measure of brightness. It is a relation of brightness to eyesight.
Guys, I'm pretty sure at this point Komoda is either a troll, stubborn, or just completely ignoring the rules quoted at him. He believes that he knows all and will not alter his belief that one's effective viewing of a location completely obliterates any shadows that are actually there. Even though they do still exist, and as been pointed out many a time that HiPS by Shadowdancer does not care if the viewer can see the Dim Light or not, just that it exists. He is of the belief that a Shadowdancer cannot use the ability, because they can never be within 10ft of Dim light, due to having Darkvision. At this point, he can keep arguing it, but this conversation gives me a headache because of how much I am watching myself and others slam our heads against a brick wall known as Komoda.
I wish you all luck in convincing him of the actual rules, but I know the rules work as many of us have tried explaining to him. And I will now depart this thread.
And to Komoda, I mean no insult to you with this, but perhaps one should go into a discussion with an open mind. Your ideals on how the ability work make it so the ability cannot work. I am in favor of the ability actually working, and the rules support that belief. I hope you can understand.
And a quote for him saying that Darkvision doesn't ignore Miss chance: "In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness." As for whether or not LLV ignores this, he is correct in this one thing. LLV does not remove the miss chance from Dim Light, it only expands the amount of light one can see.
Trinity, I can see you still don't understand my position. It is common. I get it. No, I am not a troll. I can, and have, pointed out that I don't agree with others but see their view. I keep posting because of posts like yours, no offense taken, that do not understand my position. I have never stated that a shadowdancer's vision ever affected their ability to use HiPS. Not once. But like 4 people have stated that I did. And this is not new.
And I also want the game's abilities to work. I want them all to work, not just this one. My interpretation doesn't make it a "win" against all creatures and allows those with the right abilities to defeat it. This is a common theme in the game.
I have over 1600 posts, and all of them are cordial and try to show my logic. And in all of them I try to give credence to the other side with acknowledgments of where I cannot prove them wrong. This is the opposite of trolling. This is good debating. It would be nice if more people could look at the logic and do this in my direction. You don't have to agree with me to understand me.
Even your post, which makes it appear as if you have been following along, fails to understand my position. It also mentions shadows, which time and again I have proven are not part of the Shadowdancer's HiPS rules.
Big Norse Wolf stated it the best so far that the whole thing boils down to whether the base light level or the effective light level is what matters. And at all times I have stated that I can't prove that it is the "effective" light level, but I have given evidence. But very few have acknowledged that they can't prove it is the "actual" light level.
And a quote for him saying that Darkvision doesn't ignore Miss chance: "In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness." As for whether or not LLV ignores this, he is correct in this one thing. LLV does not remove the miss chance from Dim Light, it only expands the amount of light one can see.
That quote says that Darkvision does ignore miss chance. I'm confused.
And a quote for him saying that Darkvision doesn't ignore Miss chance: "In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness." As for whether or not LLV ignores this, he is correct in this one thing. LLV does not remove the miss chance from Dim Light, it only expands the amount of light one can see.That quote says that Darkvision does ignore miss chance. I'm confused.
You stated on first page that under a strict reading that darkvision still grants the 20% miss chance. I posted that it does not.
You stated on first page that under a strict reading that darkvision still grants the 20% miss chance. I posted that it does not.And a quote for him saying that Darkvision doesn't ignore Miss chance: "In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness." As for whether or not LLV ignores this, he is correct in this one thing. LLV does not remove the miss chance from Dim Light, it only expands the amount of light one can see.That quote says that Darkvision does ignore miss chance. I'm confused.
Talk about selective quoting! My next sentence was to the effect of, "this is clearly not the intention."
My point was, following the logic posted by my opposition that the area is still Dim Light, nothing in Darkvision states that you ignore the 20% miss chance. We all know it does, because it doesn't count as Dim Light within the range of Darkvision. This is another case where I was trying to show how the observer's vision changes the "effective" light level. It is agreed that in this case the "effective" light level of the observer is what matters. I think it is agreed that the "effective" light level is what matters in every single instance of Vision and Light - except we disagree about how HiPS is applied. I believe that it is applied to the "effective" light level, like all other things, while others feel it is based on the "ambient" light level, unlike any other skill or ability interaction.
Top of paragraph 5: Here
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness.
I don't think you are seeing how I am trying to point out the oppositions selective application of the rules.
These are concepts, not physical things. Dim light is not a measure of brightness. It is a relation of brightness to eyesight.
My camera sensor and all of real-world science disagrees with you. Light is a measurable thing, that can be rated independently on one's perception of it.
These are concepts, not physical things. Dim light is not a measure of brightness. It is a relation of brightness to eyesight.My camera sensor and all of real-world science disagrees with you. Light is a measurable thing, that can be rated independently on one's perception of it.
Of course light is measurable. I even gave it sample (fake) measurements in posts above the one you quoted.
The definition of Dim Light is what I was saying is subjective.
Just like the weight (light) of an object (square) is fixed but it's "heaviness" (Light Level) is subjective.
Take an object that weighs 25 lbs. To a weightlifter, it is not heavy. To a toddler, it is extremely heavy.
Take a square 25' from a torch. To an elf, it is Normal Light. To a human, it is Dim Light.
The weight (light) did not change. Whether or not it is considered heavy (Dim Light), changes based on the person lifting (viewing) it.
See how that analogy fits perfectly with my understanding? (You can agree to that without agreeing with my position). I hope that helps convey my reasoning.
Back to your camera, two different cameras see the same measurable light at different brightness levels based on the sensor within the camera. A picture from a camera phone from 1999 will not be as bright as one taken from a high end, 2016 model full frame DSLR. Same light sources, completely different outcomes due to censors (eyes).
Dim Light is a rating of how well you can see, a rating of the sensor. It is not a measure of the photons in the area.
I am fine if we disagree on the game consequences of my position. Please just try to understand my position that you are disagreeing with.
For good measure.
Low light, darkvision, and true seeing do not remove areas of dim light. They just allow characters to see through them without penalty.
The dim light is still present.
Low light changes the definition of dim light so that it ISN"T there, at least from the elf's point of view.
I tentatively agree with your ultimate conclussion, I just don't think there's any definitive way to get there
For good measure.
Low light, darkvision, and true seeing do not remove areas of dim light. They just allow characters to see through them without penalty.
The dim light is still present.
Low light changes the definition of dim light so that it ISN"T there, at least from the elf's point of view.
I tentatively agree with your ultimate conclussion, I just don't think there's any definitive way to get there
And this bold part, is 100% true.
I apologize if it appears I am beating a dead horse. I do not try to list my opinion again and again in order to beat it into you. I try to clarify my position when someone misunderstands or misrepresents it, like Ravingdork did this morning.
So Komoda I have a question for you.
In your view of the rules, a character with Low Light or Dark Vision, would make the dim light (such as the dim light from a torch) not count for Hide in Plain Sight?
Is that correct?
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I'm also curious about this. From the blog.
So what about low-light vision anyway? Those guys can see twice as far via light sources. However, they don't change the actual radius of the magic at all.
Why does low-light change the radius of nonmagical light but not the radius of magical light?
So Komoda I have a question for you.
In your view of the rules, a character with Low Light or Dark Vision, would make the dim light (such as the dim light from a torch) not count for Hide in Plain Sight?
Is that correct?
No, I am saying the area of Dim Light is based on the observer.
I made a new graphic. Maybe this Torchlight Image will help to explain my position.
The area in yellow is the 20' radius of a torch. To the human, elf, and dwarf this is Normal Light.
The area in orange is the 21'-40' radius of a torch. To the human it is Dim Light. To the elf it is Normal Light. To the Dwarf it is Black & White, with no penalties.
The area in red is a little trickier. To the human it is darkness. To the elf it is Dim Light. To the dwarf, the part inside the "Darkvision" dashed line is Black & White while the part outside is Darkness.
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So there is 1 torch. Yet, based on the viewer, the light levels of almost every area is different.
There are 3 targets marked in the graphic. Assuming no HiPS or cover, here is what happens to them.
"A" cannot hide from the human, elf, or dwarf because it is Normal Light to all.
"B" can hide from the human because it is Dim Light to him, but not the elf or dwarf because they see it as normal light.
"C" automatically hides from the human and dwarf due to darkness, but must beat the elf's perception check because he sees it as Dim Light.
I think we all agree with this section.
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Now add HiPS where Dim Light is defined as a static thing, as I believe my opposition states.
"A" can hide from everyone due to HiPS within 10' of a Static Dim Light.
"B" can hide from everyone due to HiPS within 10' of a Static Dim Light.
"C" automatically hides from the human and dwarf due to darkness, but must beat the elf's perception check because he sees it as Non-Static Dim Light. So, if the elf had True Seeing and was looking at "C", that target could still not use HiPS because he is more than 10' away from the Static area of Dim Light (The orange area), and only the static area matters.
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Now, add HiPS where Dim Light is defined by the observer, as I believe.
"A" can hide from the human due to HiPS within 10' of what the human views as Dim Light. "A" cannot hide from the elf or dwarf because is not within 10' of what they consider to be Dim Light.
"B" can hide from the human because "B" is within what the human views as Dim Light. "B" can hide from the elf due to HiPS within 10' of what the elf views as Dim Light. "B" cannot hide from the dwarf because B is not within 10' of what the dwarf views as Dim Light.
"C" automatically hides from the human and dwarf due to darkness, but must beat the elf's perception check because the elf sees it as Dim Light.
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So what I don't get about the opposition is how the red area is Darkness, but the elf can see in it. The elf cannot see through darkness. The Low Light rules never state that he can. According to the opposition, it is either darkness or it isn't, as the light level can not be different per viewer, as the light level never changes. So since the elf can't see through darkness, how can the elf see in the red area?
Again, the elf cannot see through darkness. It changes the radius of the light source.
Which brings us to only one thing we disagree on. Whether HiPS works off of the "ambient" / "static" light level or the light level of the observer.
And as BigNorseWolf pointed out, neither side can be proven.
But I think (hope) we all agree, the basic stealth rules go off of the light level of the observer.
I'm also curious about this. From the blog.
So what about low-light vision anyway? Those guys can see twice as far via light sources. However, they don't change the actual radius of the magic at all.Why does low-light change the radius of nonmagical light but not the radius of magical light?
You might want to read the rest of the blog. The light radius does increase. The magic area does not.
In areas with light magic only, elves see twice as far. So with daylight, elves get 120 feet of bright light followed by 120 feet of one step up from normal.
The normal illumination area of the spell is 60'. It is doubled for elves, like all light sources.
The magic ends at 120'. What this means is that a darkness spell 150' away from the Daylight spell would not be affected by the daylight spell. The daylight spell would not penetrate the darkness spell because the actual Daylight spell area ended at 120'. Past that 120' it is just "light" not "magical light". As the darkness spell dissipates all non-magical light, the extended area of daylight does not work.
Low Light Vision absolutely changes the radius of the light, it just loses its magical properties.
In areas with both light and darkness magic, the elf being an elf does not change where the magics overlap. But where is that? The spells target an object, rather than stating an emanation. For the purpose of determining where light and darkness magics have an overlapping region, look at the spell and determine the farthest radius where it has an effect (for example, that would be 120 feet for daylight, 20 feet for darkness, and 40 feet for continual flame).
Really? The amount of water and the density of the water do not change based on who perceives the water.
But with light, the light condition applied to the square ABSOLUTELY changes based on who is looking at that square.
Clearly they are different.
The light level (lumens) is unaffected by the observer. It does not matter if the observer has See-in-Darkness, a lighting level of X lumens (defined as Dim in the rules) remains.
What changes is the perception of the character using low light vision/darkvision/see in darkness, i.e. that character does not suffer penalties in an area with X lumens of light intensity.
HIPS is not checking to see what light levels the observer can see in. HIPS is checking to see if dim light (an area with X lumens of light intensity) is present within 10' of the character attempting to hide.
If dim_light_within_10 = Yes then HIPS = works.
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I tentatively agree with your ultimate conclussion, I just don't think there's any definitive way to get there
Stop treating the effective radius for other characters as the actual radius for the HiPS character, for one.
Past that 120' it is just "light" not "magical light".
There is no light past 120ft from the daylight spell. The spell gives 60ft of bright light, and 60ft more of increased light. After 120ft, there is no light. An elf gets to view that area as if it were dim light, barring other factors like darkness.
Really? The amount of water and the density of the water do not change based on who perceives the water.
But with light, the light condition applied to the square ABSOLUTELY changes based on who is looking at that square.
Clearly they are different.
The light level (lumens) is unaffected by the observer. It does not matter if the observer has See-in-Darkness, a lighting level of X lumens (defined as Dim in the rules) remains.
What changes is the perception of the character using low light vision/darkvision/see in darkness, i.e. that character does not suffer penalties in an area with X lumens of light intensity.
HIPS is not checking to see what light levels the observer can see in. HIPS is checking to see if dim light (an area with X lumens of light intensity) is present within 10' of the character attempting to hide.
If dim_light_within_10 = Yes then HIPS = works.
Then why do all the other stealth rules base the light level on the observer? And while the lumens remain the same (as I posted above) the level of light is different.
And back to my Torchlight picture, what would you call the area in red?
No, I am saying the area of Dim Light is based on the observer.
If it's based on the observer then how does a Shadowdancer (who has Darkvision) use Hide in Plain Sight (which requires dim light in 10ft)?
Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?
It is a logic exercise, but here goes. And this is ALL based on BASIC stealth.
You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.
25' from a torch puts you in Dim Light and you can attempt to hide from a human.
41' - 80' from the torch puts you in Darkness. You automatically hide from a human.
Replace human with elf:
You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.
25' from a torch does not put you in Dim Light when trying to hide from an elf. This is why you cannot hide from an elf within 40' of a torch. You do not have concealment. This concealment is not missing because an elf sees through concealment, it is missing because the light level, Dim Light, is absent to the elf within 40' of that torch.
41' - 80' from a torch, Dim Light does exist to the elf. The elf suffers a 20% chance to things in that area because they have concealment. The elf still does not see through Dim Light. The elf has moved the Dim Light. In this area, you can attempt a stealth check because you have concealment again.
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Clearly stealth rules are based on the observer's interaction with the light level, as well as cover and other factors, in relation to the person trying to hide.
No, I am saying the area of Dim Light is based on the observer.If it's based on the observer then how does a Shadowdancer (who has Darkvision) use Hide in Plain Sight (which requires dim light in 10ft)?
This again? Just go back and read the 10 other times where I showed this argument is completely illogical.
Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?
And back to my Torchlight picture, what would you call the area in red?An area of darkness the elf can see into as if it were dim light.
The elf does not see darkness as dim light. The elf is affected by darkness the same as all creatures.
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Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.
The requirement for a Shadowdancer to use HIPS is the presence of dim light, not concealment.
A shadowdancer can be standing in full view in daylight in an open field and if a hole 10' away is an area of dim light, he can hide.
I tentatively agree with your ultimate conclussion, I just don't think there's any definitive way to get thereStop treating the effective radius for other characters as the actual radius for the HiPS character, for one.
Past that 120' it is just "light" not "magical light".There is no light past 120ft from the daylight spell. The spell gives 60ft of bright light, and 60ft more of increased light. After 120ft, there is no light. An elf gets to view that area as if it were dim light, barring other factors like darkness.
The example in the blog specifically disagrees with you.
[qutoe=blog]In areas with light magic only, elves see twice as far. So with daylight, elves get 120 feet of bright light followed by 120 feet of one step up from normal.
120' of bright light + 120' of "one step up from normal light" = 240' of light.
Here is an image I made based off of an ambient light of Dim Light.
Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.The requirement for a Shadowdancer to use HIPS is the presence of dim light, not concealment.
A shadowdancer can be standing in full view in daylight in an open field and if a hole 10' away is an area of dim light, he can hide.
And that whole post was about basic stealth, as asked by TriOmegaZero.
The point was, the area of Dim Light changes based on the observer. Don't lose focus of my argument. You can disagree with it all day, but try to understand it.
The elf does not see darkness as dim light. The elf is affected by darkness the same as all creatures.Yes, and low light doubles the effective (not actual) radius of dim light. So the elf treats the area of darkness in that radius as dim light. It is still darkness, however.
We both know where we disagree. Why can't you just agree that is where we disagree? I say HiPS works or fails based of the observer. You say it works or fails based on the "ambient" light level.
I say "effective" matters. You say only "actual" matters.
We agree on this disagreement, correct?
I ask this because others are getting involved again and are not following our argument enough to understand my position. I want to make sure that you at least do.
This again? Just go back and read the 10 other times where I showed this argument is completely illogical.No, I am saying the area of Dim Light is based on the observer.If it's based on the observer then how does a Shadowdancer (who has Darkvision) use Hide in Plain Sight (which requires dim light in 10ft)?
It would be illogical since it's based on your own logic?
It would be illogical since it's based on your own logic?This again? Just go back and read the 10 other times where I showed this argument is completely illogical.No, I am saying the area of Dim Light is based on the observer.If it's based on the observer then how does a Shadowdancer (who has Darkvision) use Hide in Plain Sight (which requires dim light in 10ft)?
Ok, I will try again.
Because the shadowdancer doesn't hide from himself.
But ignoring that, the presence of a dwarf with darkvision does not negate HiPS against a human without it. I never stated that it does. Your argument implies that I did. You are not the first. I explained this above at least twice.
In normal stealth, the presence of a dwarf does not stop a thief from being able to hide from a human 25' away from the torch. That thief just can't hide from the dwarf, within 60' of the dwarf. Same square. The thief can hide from the human, but not the dwarf.
There are links to pictures and everything in the posts above.
I posit HiPS works the same way.
NOBODY LOOK AT ME
I"M INVISIBLE!
Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.The requirement for a Shadowdancer to use HIPS is the presence of dim light, not concealment.
A shadowdancer can be standing in full view in daylight in an open field and if a hole 10' away is an area of dim light, he can hide.
And that whole post was about basic stealth, as asked by TriOmegaZero.
The point was, the area of Dim Light changes based on the observer. Don't lose focus of my argument. You can disagree with it all day, but try to understand it.
I understand that a character with darkvision, "gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness."
RAW also says "A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light."
RAW does not say the lighting level changes based on the observer.
HIPS does not care about concealment, HIPS cares about the lighting level. When confronted by a creature with Darkvision, the Shadowdancer would not have concealment, but he would have dim light.
Where do the stealth rules mention the light level?You typically have to have cover or concealment to stealth.
Dim Light gives concealment.
Dim Light is based on the observer.The requirement for a Shadowdancer to use HIPS is the presence of dim light, not concealment.
A shadowdancer can be standing in full view in daylight in an open field and if a hole 10' away is an area of dim light, he can hide.
And that whole post was about basic stealth, as asked by TriOmegaZero.
The point was, the area of Dim Light changes based on the observer. Don't lose focus of my argument. You can disagree with it all day, but try to understand it.
I understand that a character with darkvision, "gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness."
RAW also says "A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light."
RAW does not say the lighting level changes.
Can an elf ignore Dim Light? If your answer is "yes" than you do not understand Light and Vision enough to contribute to this discussion.
I am not trying to be mean, but if you answered "yes" you need to go back and reread pages 172-173 of the CRB.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Can an elf see through Dim Light?Any creature can see through dim light, they just have a 20% miss chance on attacks. Did you mean something different?
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat.
Please tell me you are trolling in fun. You of all people have got to realize that I mean "ignore" dim light.
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Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
For the purposes or resolving that creatures vision, the effective radius of a light source is increased.
1. Effective is not equal to actual. The light levels are not altered beyond their normal radius for any purpose other than resolving that creatures perception.
2. HIPS is not checking the perception of observers. HIPS is checking the actual lighting levels for the existence of dim light.
3. HIPS does not require concealment. It does not matter if the effective (or actual) light level is bright, normal, magical darkness, etc. It cares that there is an area within 10' that contains dim light.
It's not that I don't understand the rules you are quoting. It is that they are irrelevant. HIPS cares nothing for the observers ability to see in darkness, it cares only that darkness (dim light) exists.
In the case of low light vision, the presence of an elf does not extend the area illuminated by a light source. Low light vision extends the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits from existing illumination.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.For the purposes or resolving that creatures vision, the effective radius of a light source is increased.
1. Effective is not equal to actual. The light levels are not altered beyond their normal radius for any purpose other than resolving that creatures perception.
2. HIPS is not checking the perception of observers. HIPS is checking the actual lighting levels for the existence of dim light.
3. HIPS does not require concealment. It does not matter if the effective (or actual) light level is bright, normal, magical darkness, etc. It cares that there is an area within 10' that contains dim light.
It's not that I don't understand the rules you are quoting. It is that they are irrelevant. HIPS cares nothing for the observers ability to see in darkness, it cares only that darkness (dim light) exists.
In the case of low light vision, the presence of an elf does not extent the area illuminated by a light source. Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits from existing illumination.
Dim Light only exists where the observer feels it exists, in my opinion. This is supported (not proven) by how Stealth works differently when a human or an elf is the observer. Please see the maps and graphics above that illustrate it. To sum it up, why does stealth rely upon the observer's point of view for light levels, but HiPS relies upon the "base" level? At some point you have got to agree that this is your position.
At some point you have got to realize that, like BigNorseWolf stated, you cannot prove it. I admit that I cannot prove my position.
"Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits from existing illumination. "
Right! If an elf and a human were standing next to each other, right next to a torch, only the elf would automatically see a person using HiPS 15' from the torch, because only the elf is gaining the benefit of that square being 25' away from Dim Light. It does not help the human that the elf is standing there.
Your interpretation of HiPS not only gives the person hiding a 10' extra area to hide it, it ALSO negates Darkvision and Low Light Vision. I don't see anything to support this. I get why you read it this way, but I see no support for it.
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On another note, about the wording: effective area (radius) also means the area effected.
The radius is not effectively doubled. The effective radius is doubled. The radius that the effect exists in is doubled.
Effective means producing the desired result. It does not mean "fake" result.
If a fireball is "Widened" the area it affects is doubled. I.E. The radius it affects is doubled. I.E. Its effective radius is doubled.
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"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." Core Rulebook, page 564.
Low-light vision allows for a character to see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision. You are correct that in light that is dim-light to them they still have the 20% miss chance. Still, the "double the radius of light effects" is a matter of point-source illumination and not ambient light illumination.
Anyway, considering that the character can use HiPS even when standing in bright light as long as there's dim-light nearby (not even in line with them and the observer, just nearby) I think that the "must be within 10 feet of dim light" is just a matter of the circumstances being right to draw upon the Plane of Shadow and hide that way, or something along those lines, and it might even partially conceal from blind-sight, scent, and various other forms of perception with neither trumping either; just forcing a straight-out perception versus stealth check. (No +20/+40 bonus for being invisible or anything)
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Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.For the purposes or resolving that creatures vision, the effective radius of a light source is increased.
1. Effective is not equal to actual. The light levels are not altered beyond their normal radius for any purpose other than resolving that creatures perception.
2. HIPS is not checking the perception of observers. HIPS is checking the actual lighting levels for the existence of dim light.
3. HIPS does not require concealment. It does not matter if the effective (or actual) light level is bright, normal, magical darkness, etc. It cares that there is an area within 10' that contains dim light.
It's not that I don't understand the rules you are quoting. It is that they are irrelevant. HIPS cares nothing for the observers ability to see in darkness, it cares only that darkness (dim light) exists.
In the case of low light vision, the presence of an elf does not extent the area illuminated by a light source. Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits from existing illumination.
Dim Light only exists where the observer feels it exists, in my opinion. This is supported (not proven) by how Stealth works differently when a human or an elf is the observer. Please see the maps and graphics above that illustrate it. To sum it up, why does stealth rely upon the observer's point of view for light levels, but HiPS relies upon the "base" level? At some point you have got to agree that this is your position.
At some point you have got to realize that, like BigNorseWolf stated, you cannot prove it. I admit that I cannot prove my position.
"Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits...
Normal stealth requires concealment from the observer, provided by dim light in this case.
HIPS does not require concealment. They can, literally, hide in plain sight.
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Ah, but what if dim light exists but no one can observe it? For example, the shadowdancer is standing by a closed door. On the other side of the closed door is a dimly lit room, but the room is not able to be observed by anyone. Does HIPS still work?
(I say yes, but I'm curious as to how people thinks it would function when an observer isn't even able to see the light, dim or no, in question.)