Greetings! I'm throwing together a gestalt character for a campaign and just wanted to throw around some ideas and get opinions!
I suppose first I should ask: Is there an official pazio ruling for gestalt or are 3.5 rules generally adopted?
Next up, c-c-c-combos!
I'm absolutely 100% sure I want to use a rogue, probably the unchained version for one of my classes. The GM is giving us more feats than normal, so I've opted out of taking fighter, but I still want to grab full BAB, so here is what I've boiled it down to:
Unchained Rogue/Unchained Monk - I wouldn't be able to use the knife master archetype, but if I'm reading everything correctly, I can finesse my unarmed strikes and get my dex to damage, as well as sneak attack damage if flanking. Flurry of blows = more attacks, too, and conserves feats for TWF. Tons of synergy here. EDIT: Can an unchained monk use flurry of blows while using a dagger? This would actually make knife master viable here.
Ranger/Knife Master Rogue - Easy TWF, can build a switch hitter conveniently, nifty animal companion.
Fighter/Knife Master Rogue- More feats than I could possibly know what to do with.
Gunslinger/Rogue - Possibly with the pistolero or musket master archetype? Both give dex to dmg, neither need strength. Would need to devise a way to get ranged sneak attacks in. (ideas?)
Would love to hear some input on this. Stats are 18/16/14/12/10/8
Generally, they use the 3.5 version.
Monk is nice.
Aetherkineticist won't get you full bab, but it gets you a nice attack, ranged disable device, and eventually at-will invisibility and a form of flight.
Swashbuckler gets you opportune parry, and at 5th adds extra damage that stacks with your dex. But you'll only have reflex saves.
Inquisitor does not get BAB, but you'll have full saves and eventually bane.
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I'd probably go Rogue-Paladin myself.
- full bab
- d10 hd
- all good saves
- 8 skill ranks per level
Only downside I can see is the Paladin might restrict some of the stereotypical rogueish behaviour. Could go swash-paladin.
Warpriest is also an option. Similar saves, lower hd, 3/4th bab is offset a little by the sacred weapon, spells are nice, higher damage die of your weapon is nice.
I'm trying to avoid anything with casting on it. They party already has tons of casters. Thanks for the ideas. Swashbuckler I'll have to look into for sure. We have a ton of extra feats so I can buffer out some of the saving throws there, and swsh might be a little less stat dependent since the monk/rg would need dex,wiz,con
I'd probably go Rogue-Paladin myself.
If no spellcasting then maybe fighter. If you don't mind fake spell casting then alchemist, focusing on self-buffs. All good saves. When you can't sneak attack something, throw bombs. Investigator would be cool too, but has more overlap with the rogue.
I think I'm going to go with Unchained Monk/Unchained Rogue. Full BAB, lots of attacks, unarmed sneak attacks with stunning fists and rogue debuffs, adds dex to unarmed damage, options to make sneak attacks nonlethal, decent saves, d10hd. I really can't think of a reason not to do this :)
Now I guess I need to start digging into archetypes and ways to make these two classes mesh together even better.
Ditto on Rogue/Paladin, and even better, go Ninja instead of Rogue for the Charisma synergy. You'd have all great saves, full BAB, massive skills, Vanishing Trick for stealth in heavy armor, etc.
Swashbuckler is also good, and the Mysterious Avenger archetype removes Nimble, and gives you another use for Charmed Life, both of which would be useless for a heavy armor paladin. Go sword-and-board with a morningstar for your one-handed piercing weapon!
If you're going to go Unchained Monk, check out the Brawler. You're already stretched out a bit on stats, so being able to wear armor is nice instead of relying on Wisdom.
I second the idea of Telekineticist. It would make your Rogue even more Rogue-like. At-will Invisibility, Flight, reliance on two stats, ever, allows you to put a few points into Wisdom. You gain improvements to hit as you progress in the class by just using the class features. Still be able to use unarmed strikes if you want. And they only have a select feats that they can use with Kinetic Blast, so you've got lots of options for your Rogue. Sneak Attack plus Foe Throw or Disintegrating Infusion. Kinetic Blade. Your only trouble will be finding armor that has an extremely high max Dex limit.
Rogue(swashbuckler)-Urban Barbarian: huge hp, rage for +dex, rage powers. Can convert more talents into combat feats.
If you really want to change things up: Eldritch Scion - Urban Barbarian
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I think I'm going to go with Unchained Monk/Unchained Rogue. Full BAB, lots of attacks, unarmed sneak attacks with stunning fists and rogue debuffs, adds dex to unarmed damage, options to make sneak attacks nonlethal, decent saves, d10hd. I really can't think of a reason not to do this :)
Now I guess I need to start digging into archetypes and ways to make these two classes mesh together even better.
Sap Master is great for a Unchained Monk//Rouge. You should also consider Feinting Flurry to enable full round sneak attacks, and the Spin Kick style strike.
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Urogue & Snakebite Striker Brawler can combo well if you don't want to deal with the WIS needed for a monk and don't want to be a caster. The Snakebite Striker will get you flurry, more SA, and is awesome for Feint builds.
If you make the Urogue archetype into Knifemaster (which changes ALL SA to d8 when using a knife - including the ones gained from Snakebite levels) then you can actually flurry with it.
2d8 SA at level 1? Yes please!
I really can't think of a reason not to do this :)
How about the fact that your most important save (Will) is going to be bad, plus you're going to suffer from the classic rogue problem of always having to decide between moving around for flanks so you can SA or being able to full attack (and just the General melee problem of trying to consistently get full attacks without pounce)?
If/since you have your heart set on URogue (and seem opposed to the pally suggestion), Urban Barbarian does have potential... controlled rage is nice for +Dex, superstitious will make a huge difference for your Will save, and the beast totem tree will give you pounce.
About wanting to avoid casting... In a gestalt game there is nothing wrong with everyone having some casting ability. Casting is handy and gives you more options, and casting classes (especially the 6 level ones) can often be a really nice combo with a melee class. Want a Dex build? Why not a Swashbuckler paired with a cleric, warpriest, or inquisitor of Cayden? Want to be stealthier with some sneak attack damage? What about a Slayer/Magus: they get full BAB, d10 HD, all good saves, 6+ skills, invisibility, dimension door, some sneak attack, all the magus combat buffs...
I really can't think of a reason not to do this :)How about the fact that your most important save (Will) is going to be bad, plus you're going to suffer from the classic rogue problem of always having to decide between moving around for flanks so you can SA or being able to full attack (and just the General melee problem of trying to consistently get full attacks without pounce)?
If/since you have your heart set on URogue (and seem opposed to the pally suggestion), Urban Barbarian does have potential... controlled rage is nice for +Dex, superstitious will make a huge difference for your Will save, and the beast totem tree will give you pounce.
About wanting to avoid casting... In a gestalt game there is nothing wrong with everyone having some casting ability. Casting is handy and gives you more options, and casting classes (especially the 6 level ones) can often be a really nice combo with a melee class. Want a Dex build? Why not a Swashbuckler paired with a cleric, warpriest, or inquisitor of Cayden? Want to be stealthier with some sneak attack damage? What about a Slayer/Magus? Full BAB, d10 HD, all good saves, 6+ skills, invisibility, some sneak attack, all the magus combat buffs...
The GM is giving us a feat per HD instead of every other. I've picked up Iron Will, as well as Indomitable Faith for an additional +3 in my will save, as well as setting my wisdom to a 16. We're using Automatic Bonus Progression, so my saves at level 3 are 6/9/6, which isn't really that terrible.
Our party has a summoner, as well as some animal companions, which will make flanking a little simpler. Even if I don't line up for a sneak attack in a round, I'm ramping up my disarm and trip. I'm going with the pummeling charge feat line to get my pounce (that will set in at level 8).
I've had a lot of experience with Gestalt. It's the norm for people to take a casting class, and I just want to break the mold. What I really enjoyed doing was building the character thematically first, and then using the stats to build him in.
All in all, I'm pretty satisfied. Right now he's rolling around at level 3 with +9/+9/+9 1d6+7 (+2d6 SA), 19AC and 39 HP. Decent saves, good CMD and CMB for grapple. It's not incredibly optimized, but it's survivable and cool. The only real overlap I have with skills and traits is evasion.
I get that. The last gestalt thing I played in I felt like doing sort of a non-caster too. I went with a Fighter/Investigator (which admittedly kind of still is a caster). And in the game I'm running right now one of the characters is a pally/uRogue (and he's the only one in the party without at least a 6 level casting class).
Sap Master is great for a Unchained Monk//Rouge. You should also consider Feinting Flurry to enable full round sneak attacks, and the Spin Kick style strike.I think I'm going to go with Unchained Monk/Unchained Rogue. Full BAB, lots of attacks, unarmed sneak attacks with stunning fists and rogue debuffs, adds dex to unarmed damage, options to make sneak attacks nonlethal, decent saves, d10hd. I really can't think of a reason not to do this :)
Now I guess I need to start digging into archetypes and ways to make these two classes mesh together even better.
I intended on picking up Feinting Flurry, but hadn't noticed Sap master. This will be great for bounty hunting ^___^ Thanks for showing me this one
I get that. The last gestalt thing I played in I felt like doing sort of a non-caster too. I went with a Fighter/Investigator (which admittedly kind of still is a caster). And in the game I'm running right now one of the characters is a pally/uRogue (and he's the only one in the party without at least a 6 level casting class).
If we hadn't already had a paladin, I would have gone Pally/gunslinger :P Irresistible cheese.
If we hadn't already had a paladin, I would have gone Pally/gunslinger :P Irresistible cheese.
I actually like gunslinger/inquisitor even better, but I could see an oath of vengeance pally/mysterious stranger gunslinger being pretty cool...
also, I always try to point out to people that there's no harm in doubling up classes in gestalt unless what you're really doubling up is concepts (or your leaving vital roles completely ignored). a hospitaler pally/life oracle would be so completely different from an OoV pally/mysterious stranger that even if they have the same code of conduct they're still not even going to feel like the same class.