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Question 2: Animal Companions
Does an INT 3 animal that understands a language operate the same exact way as a 2 INT creature that does not? If so, what is the mechanical effect of allowing the animal to understand a language?
Mechanically the same, yes. You still need Handle Animal tricks.
You can reasonably specify visual cues. "Attack the man in red." "Attack from that side." "Come, avoid the rug."
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That same FAQ (really, autocorrect?) states "understand a language with a rank in Linguistics."
Mechanically, "understanding" a language means that when a PC/NPC speaks that language the understandin character knows what they said (barring obscuring magics).
I suspect the nuance you're describing is going to be table variation (ruling on every possible variation of a trick would result in either an overly broad ruling or an incomplete list).
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Your entire party (including your Int 2 bear) gets hit with a very high DC greater command, halt. The bear continues to maul the annoying cleric while the rest of your party stands in place.
Your entire party (including your Int 3 bear whom you taught common) gets hit with a very high DC greater command, halt. The bear freezes with the rest of the party since it can now be affected.
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If I have to make Handle Animal Checks on an animal companion with 7 Intelligence, can I also make Handle Animal checks to order around Nagaji?If they have the animal or magical beast type, sure.
Just me poking fun at the fact that I can have an Animal Companion with an intelligence higher than a player character (and by extension potentially smarter than their 'master'), yet still they can't act on their heightened intellect. Somehow.
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Just me poking fun at the fact that I can have an Animal Companion with an intelligence higher than a player character (and by extension potentially smarter than their 'master'), yet still they can't act on their heightened intellect. Somehow.
at that point i start having the horse make handle paladin checks.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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No, it says you can see without penalty, and that you ignore cover and concealment. It does not define cover and concealment as a penalty.
This is the kind of argument you get when you are pedantic about parsing the rules.
I hardly think that reading the text of the feat is being pedantic.
The first sentence of the feat literally does what I said it does.
It starts out "You can see through fog, mist, and clouds, without penalty," and then goes on to define what the penalties are, "ignoring any cover or concealment bonuses from such effects."
I'm ignoring for the moment that it is pretty impossible for cloud effects to grant cover (but who knows, maybe one day something like that will be published) and that concealment doesn't provide a bonus or penalty, but the feat classifies it as a bonus for some reason.
What penalties, aside from concealment, are you ignoring exactly? In the context of this feat, concealment is a penalty that you are ignoring.
Can we just agree that the feat is a mess and needs to at the least be clarified?
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You can only see 5ft into the cloud. 5x3=15But you can see zero feet without penalty.
And again, there is no penalty, only concealment. Concealment is not a penalty.
But again, none of us actually believe that the feat does nothing in magical conditions, and everyone believes it should be clarified.
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However, I do not believe that the FAQ nor the blog discuss the combination of both 3 INT and the ability to understand language.
My apologies, I thought you were using the FAQ on Int 3 Animal Companions.
You get 3 more Tricks for the point of Intelligence, and you can combine those Tricks into multistep commands, but you don't get to modify the Tricks. E.g. Attack the the men in the robes = Attack + Attack ..., Stop attacking and get back = Down + Come or Down + Heel, but not Down and take a 5' step back (because units of measurement are constructs of thought, i.e. tools, and a smart animal can't use tools in PFS nor measure distance), but you could Push it to do that (doesn't have a 5' step Trick but is physically capable (see Handle Animal).
Also, if you can Speak with Animals, it can tell you things it overheard, which isn't possible with an AC without a rank in Linguistics.
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You get 3 more Tricks for the point of Intelligence...
Neither the blog nor the FAQ actually address the impact of Linguistics with regards to the creature's actions. They only address the 3 INT question and only so far as the need to make a check. None of that is what I am asking about.
As stated, I'm not interested in nor am I trying to solicit opinions on how people think the rules work.
Also, if you can Speak with Animals, it can tell you things it overheard, which isn't possible with an AC without a rank in Linguistics.Not relevant to any of my questions. And also, a rank in Linguistics does not allow the animal to speak.
...although they may understand a language with a rank in Linguistics...Understanding a language does not automatically grant speech.
Finally, if you use the spell Speak with Animals, the animal does not need a rank in Linguistics to speak back.
It needs a rank in Linguistics to understand other people to tell you what they said. That was my point.
I'm not really giving an opinion. The FAQs and Blog state that you still use Handle Animal. I've just been citing Handle Animal. My point is this:
FAQ/Blog says you still need to use Handle Animal.
Handle Animal says you need a Trick.
Handle Animal has rules for getting your Animal to do things it hasn't learned: Push.
That Int 3 + Linguistics doesn't change the Handle Animal/Trick rules doesn't mean it has no effect. You can use Message to give the command, you can give sequential commands that don't require you to be with your AC to give the next command (Seek+Combat Maneuver Steal+Come), spying if you have a way to give it speach, and likely other things.
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N N 959, I do not understand what you're trying to ask.
Being able to understand a language comes with all of the mechanical benefits that your PC gains by understanding a language.
We've given you several instances where understanding a language would be beneficial. What other answer are you looking for?
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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EDIT: Maybe I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I thought it was a place for PFS to offer clarifications on aspects of the rules, not a debate thread.
You are more likely to get answers if you link to an actual debate thread. Open-ended questions are not easily clarified.
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Thanks Stephan.
maybe point out they think the topic might be covered by the rules already. Just don't engage in debate if you don't want to... it takes two to tango.Right, and I want to make it clear to PFS that the specific question is not actually addressed.
I'm getting flashbacks to This thread
Might be worth a read on the subject of animal companions and handle animal if you haven't yet.
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I get the sense that you don't realize the consequences of what you're asking.
While the goal of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild is to provide an even, balanced experience to all players, doing so would require all PCs to be exactly the same and all GMs to be restricted to a stifling oppressive script. We understand that sometimes a Game Master has to make rules adjudications on the fly, deal with unexpected player choices, or even cope with exteremely unlucky (or lucky) dice on both sides of the screen. . .
As a Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgments, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fiar and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources.
The responses you're seeing suggest that those responding (not assuming anything about the proportion of opinions they represent) neither need nor want clarification.
Some, like myself, may feel that the subject is addressed sufficiently (even if the answer requires reference to Core Rules, Animal Archive, Familiar Folio, PFS FAQ, Ultimate Campaign, and Ultimate Equipment).
That last bit does not change how the first part rules: you use Handle Animal. It does not change how Handle Animal is used: you give a command and the animal performs the Trick. In many ways, it just reskins the way you can give commands. E.g. Attack allows you to direct your AC to a specific target by pointing (a magically very accurate pointing, depending on how close together things are). Since your Int 3+, Linguistics 1 AC understands you, you can instead say, "Attack the man in the red shirt, not the man in the green shirt."
"So there's no mechanical benefit?" you ask. Not in how Handle Animal works, no. You don't get to say, "Attack that goblin in the robe and flank him," if your AC does not know the Flank Trick (i.e. 1 rank in Linguistics isn't a way around the Trick limit). However, and this is why I feel the rules cover this adequately, you could Push your AC to Attack and Flank (verbally or with whistle cues or hand gestures, doesn't matter).
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. . .
This covers Fighting Defensively, Using Smite Evil, moving to a specific square (and your Down and 5' step example command) and "etc." Flanking and Combat Maneuvers have defined Tricks.
The benefit comes from the non-Handle Animal advantages of an animal that understands a language, which is so vast it will, as others have said, always be Table Variation.
Others, including myself, may feel that any attempt to codify what can be done with an Int 3+, Linguistics 1 AC will either open a can of worms or grossly limit what can be done.
Example: "Yes, an animal that understand language/has a higher INT (we already know from the FAQ that higher INT doesn't change behavior) can exhibit more nuanced behavior compared to a 1-2 INT that does not."
Result: What is "more nuanced behavior?" I used to restrict my players to the Tricks their AC knew as per the FAQ, but now I have to adjudicate every command. Debate ensues.
Example: "An animal that understands a language/has a higher INT can exhibit more nuanced behavior compared to a 1-2 INT. For example, directing a path to an objective, choosing specific targets, moving a specific distance."
Result: Debate ensues as to whether the example list is exhaustive or not. If they add "etc," then it's the same result as the first: nobody knows what the limit is.
Example: "No, an animal that understands a language/has a higher INT can only perform the Tricks it knows."
Result: They just shut down all the non-Handle Animal possible uses of an AC that understands a language.
I'm not writing this in an attempt to sway your opinion but only to try to explain why you're getting a different reaction to your request than you expected. You really don't need to break this post down line by line to give your rebuttal. As long as Push an Animal rule exists, I feel equipped to adjudicate any situation with an Int 3+, Linguistics 1 AC.
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Making the handle animal rules fair, sensible, and consistent across a variety species, vast ranges of intelligence and proclivities when put to the test with the inifinite number of possible circumstances pathfinders find themselves in would be a task somewhere between herculean and impossible. It's probably beyond the scope of anything short of an Artificial intelligence project, and definitely beyond the level of rules clarification that the pathfinder society team provides.
With regards to the specific issue, from the design team, about how an animal that can understand a language still needs handle animal...
Under the general rules, granting a critter an int of 3 or higher grants it a language (PFS has the not unreasonable house rule that this requires a rank in linguistics on the animals part) So the entire monkey see monkey do blog is written with the assumption that an int 3 critter understands a language.
Once a creature's Int reaches 3, it also gains a language.
But that does not change the need for handle animal.
The Handle Animal skill functions similarly no matter how intelligent an animal becomes. A character must still make Handle Animal checks to train his animal and get him to perform the appropriate tasks. A GM should, however, make exceptions in the case of how such an intelligent animal might react in absence of instructions. It might not know to unlock a door to escape a burning building—as that's a fact that's learned over time and experience—but a smart animal might have a better chance of finding a way out.
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Can I suggest taking this discussion to another thread? Or at least putting it in spoiler tags?
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What does it fall under then? Is there a trick for it? (Serious question, not an argument. It's always been ruled a push at tables I've been at).Actually getting them to drink a potion requires a Handle Animal roll to push them to do so.This is not a rule.
There is no rule for it, so there's more than a few ways of going about it.
One is that its a full round action to pour a potion down an unconscious persons throat, you can do the same thing with your animal companion.
another is that you just pour it into a bowl and they drink. I mean, yes, absolute raw the animal doesn't have a trick for this, but that sort of sillyness means that if you have a +4 handle animal your animal starves to death because you can't push it into eating.
or just get a potion sponge squeeky toy.
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Going back to a spoiler tag, because the thread is crowded enough...
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
I'd probably also let you spend your full round pouring the potion down its throat, if that's how you want to spend your round. Anyway, this is not really the place to argue this point, either, and I will concede that you likely have a much greater handle on the animal companion rules than I do.
If you prefer a task that is explicitly a Handle Animal roll to push, then...
Just because an animal has a 3 INT and can understand a language and you tell it that it's really important that you reach your destination as fast as possible, it doesn't mean you no longer have to make a Handle Animal roll to get it to perform a forced march or force it to hustle for more than an hour between sleep cycles.
The point to all of this being, giving it a 3 INT and a language doesn't explicitly change the way things worked when it had a 2 INT and didn't have a language. A GM is free to give circumstance bonuses, and may decide it's not worth spending time having you roll outside of combat, but having a 3 INT or understanding common doesn't mean the animal is no longer an animal or no longer covered by the AC rules. To get that, you need it to be Awakened, at which point it's no longer an AC at all. Unless I've missed something in the rules.
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Good thing I'm not asking for that.
You don't seem to be able to articulate what you are asking for, and you are going to absurd lengths of Solipsism to differentiate between an int 3 critter that speaks a language and needs handle animal per the blog and an int 3 critter that speaks a language with a rank in linguistics and still needs handle animal as per PFS rules .. for some reason.
So the entire monkey see monkey do blog is written with the assumption that an int 3 critter understands a language.No, it actually is not written with that assumption.
The lengths you're going through to deny what is plainly written multiple times solidifies the idea that you're asking for a rules change. The blog doesn't differentiate between your dolphin that got an int 3 yesterday and your dolphin that got an int 3 four years ago and has now filled in the slot. Flipper understands common, you still need to handle animal them.