For reference, see this topic and this topic. People were trying to hash out how the air elemental whirlwind worked, and then a monkey wrench was thrown into their efforts: Bestiary 4 reverted all the text about whirlwind form. So it went like this:
- Bestiary 1 has a size restriction
- Bestiary 2 and 3 do not have size restrictions
- Bestiary 4 has a size restriction
It appears that Bestiary 4 reverted the text for the grab ability, too. Maybe it reverted all monster rule text back to Bestiary 1 rules, but I'm not 100% sure about that.
So... my question is: did Bestiary 5 fix this? Or are the monster rules stuck at Bestiary 1 revision? Or did they reinstate the fixes from 2 & 3? Basically, I'm trying to hash out what my druid should expect from whirlwind now with Bestiary 5 out, and what I as a GM can do with an air elemental, using the latest rules.
(Also, of course, if it appears that Paizo has put their editing issues behind them I might buy Bestiary 5, but if it's perpetuating the issues that Bestiary 4 caused, then I'll stay away.)
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Helpfully, the prestige class "Storm Kindler" can turn into a whirlwind as per the UMR. In that class they lay out what sized creature each size of whirlwind can pick up.
20 = small
30 = medium
40 = large
50 = huge
60 = huge
since the size limits are specifically related to the size of the whirlwind, and since that is the only place that the size of a whirlwind and it's relation to creature size is discussed, I just use those rules
I know, but you're just reposting your comment from my 2nd link. I'm not asking to rehash the conversation there. I'm asking about the new material: what does Bestiary 5 do with regards to this?
Doing a quick scan through my Bestiary 5, the word "whirlwind" appears 4 times:
- Three times it is part of the feat "Whirlwind Attack" for different creature's feats.
- One time it is a spell-like ability referencing the spell.
Thus, to answer your question, I do not think there is any new update from Bestiary 5 on this question. No creature in Bestiary 5 has the Whirlwind special ability, so it does not appear in the Universal Monster Rules section in that book.
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Whirlwind was not included in the monster abilities index. In that case Bestiary 4 is the legal version so we will have to stick with that.
Given that people were exploited the small air elemental as a pounce alternative it may be intentional. It also makes sense that you the bigger elemental can pick up bigger things.
If you want to really focus on this ability consider Powerful Shape feat and have some other options online for when it doesn't work (my favorites are low ceilings that prevent whirlwind from working.)
Argh! Bestiary 5, why u no update! Bestiary 4, why u no errata?!?
OK, thanks guys. I'll take this as a sign that Paizo really, fully intended to revert the rules back to Bestiary 1 versions. It has to be deliberate at this point. I'll start enforcing that stuff.
Much appreciated.
Argh! Bestiary 5, why u no update! Bestiary 4, why u no errata?!?
OK, thanks guys. I'll take this as a sign that Paizo really, fully intended to revert the rules back to Bestiary 1 versions. It has to be deliberate at this point. I'll start enforcing that stuff.
Much appreciated.
For B5, it wouldn't make sense to include something that wasn't in the book. I can confirm that looking at whirlwind was on the list for the most recent B4 errata, and the result (the result of there being a size limit instead of no limit at all) is intended.
Mark, that's so exciting to hear that reverting to the Bestiary 1 text is deliberate. I can run RAI now, thanks.
Do you know if the people involved in the B4 errata will also be officially clearing up which "size" we use (the size of the creature or the whirlwind itself) when scooping up enemies to drop? The rules currently state we compare the target creature's size to the size/volume of the whirlwind, rather than the size of the druid/elemental that turned into a whirlwind. It seems obvious that for game balance, you compare creature size to creature size. However, that's what the old D&D 3.5 rules did and Paizo changed that text, so people are able to make a really good argument that Paizo deliberately wanted to enable even small air elementals to scoop up big creatures.