Air Elemental Whirlwind Size Category and Bestiary Changes


Rules Questions


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Edit for clarity for possible FAQ
In the most recent bestiary the whirlwind ability states:

Whirlwind (Su) wrote:
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and may be lifted into the air.

What is the size category of a whirlwind? If we are supposed to use the size of the elemental, the text should read smaller than the elemental.

Logically a whirlwind, created by a small elemental, that can hold over 100 tiny animals and keep them suspended should be strong enough to lift a medium or smaller creature.

Furthermore:
In Bestiary 1 the ability has the size restriction
In Bestiary 2 and 3 the ability does not have the size restriction
In Bestiary 4 the ability has the size restriction

No errata exists for 2 and 3 saying it was a mistake. It was recently changed back but instead of referencing the size of the monster they continue to reference the size of the whirlwind.

Some gaming groups go off the rules of the most recent books they have. With two versions of the rule it can cause confusion, not counting the confusion of the statement "the size of the whirlwind".

Original Post Text:
I know this has been asked a bunch of times but I have yet to see a definitive answer.

In one game I am a 7th level Druid that wild shapes into a small air elemental frequently. According to the rules and the table in bestiary 1 I can choose my height to be 20 feet. So my total size would be 5 feet at the base, 10 feet at the top and 20 feet high.

From Whirlwind wrote:
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind and may be lifted into the air.

What size category is 5 feet at the base, 10 feet at the top and 20 feet high? If I am supposed to use the size of the air elemental i.e. small why wouldn't the rules say something like "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the original transformed creature"?

A typical ogre for example is a large creature (10x10) and stands 10 feet tall, it is 10x10x10, generous volume of 1000. If I am 5x10x20, Frustum volume of ~223.75, I am clearly not larger than the ogre volume wise and could not pick it up.

However Medium and smaller creatures are another story. If the average medium creature is 5x5x5, volume of 125. That volume is on the large side since your typical monster is not a perfect cube.

If a creature can fit within my volume I would consider them smaller than me and could then trap them and pick them up.

How do you interpret "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind"?


Ignipotens wrote:
How do you interpret "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind"?

Since it refers to size categories, I would use the size of the creature creating the whirlwind. A Small air elemental could only pick up Tiny or smaller creatures.


You don't need to get into volume and the like. It's pretty straightforward.

You're a small air elemental. Whirlwind does not change your size category. Ergo, you're a small whirlwind and can pick up tiny or smaller creatures.


So the volume is just how many tiny creatures I can pick up. It seems a little under powered. I am a huge whirlwind 20 feet high but I can only pick up tiny creatures :(

I guess I could think of it as the elemental may be large in size but since it started as small (i.e. young in age) it doesn't have the power to physically move anything larger. As the elemental grows in size so does the powers of its winds to pick up creatures.

Thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

This was actually removed in Bestiary 2 and 3 to say:

The whirlwind can have only as many
creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the
whirlwind’s volume.

The size restriction of the Whirlwind was removed.

Furthermore it does not say the size of the creature in that statement but of the whirlwind. So you would use the size of the whirlwind not the elemental.


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*reads up on the PRD*

The PRD still lists "creatures one or more size categories smaller" etc. As the PRD is more up to date (and more accessible to my players) than Bestiary 3, I'll stick with it.

As for whirlwind size: Since the stat blocks don't provide a size category but the rules hinge on such a category being specified, I'll continue to use the creature's size. I am not going to try and guess the size category of a point-down cone--the monster's designer should have done that already.


Yes, there lies the issue, how to you put a size category to a whirlwind? I believe with a small elemental I would be category F1 tornado :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The PRD is not the most up to date by the way. In fact, it was never updated on that section despite a change to the rules.


No mention of whirlwind in the first Bestiary errata either. So if it's an attempt at a rules change, they didn't issue errata, they didn't update the PRD (which they generally keep quite up to date), and they didn't issue a FAQ. As far as I'm concerned, the rule never changed.


Until there is an actual definition of what size category a while wind is I will just use the size of the base elemental.

The Rules actually reference both volume and size.

Quote:
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air.
Quote:
The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume.

I read that as the volume is just an indication to how much it can hold not how much it can lift off the ground.

It does seem crazy that you could hold and keep suspended 200 tiny animals (assuming the average volume of a tiny animal is 1) but you could not hold and pick up a small creature.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Quote:


No mention of whirlwind in the first Bestiary errata either. So if it's an attempt at a rules change, they didn't issue errata, they didn't update the PRD (which they generally keep quite up to date), and they didn't issue a FAQ. As far as I'm concerned, the rule never changed.

The latest book printed has the official rules, therefore the PRD is not considered a legal reference. You go by the books. The "errata" was in the publication of new rules in the new books but either way, it is clearly based on the size of the whirlwind and not the creature.

Either way a small elemental could reasonally pick up at least 2 medium targets while larger can pick up more.


Tell you what, next time I'm at the FLGS I'll peek at Bestiary 4 (or 3 if they don't have it) and see what the text says.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The text in bestiary 4 matches the PRD.


Maezer wrote:
The text in bestiary 4 matches the PRD.

This is correct.


I think it is worthy of a FAQ.

In Bestiary 1 is has the size restriction
In Bestiary 2 and 3 it does not have the size restriction
In Bestiary 4 is has the size restriction

No errata exists for 2 and 3 saying it was a mistake. It was recently changed back but instead of referencing the size of the monster they reference the size of the whirlwind.

Logically a whirlwind that can hold over 100 tiny animals and keep them suspended should be strong enough to lift a medium or small creature.

Some gaming groups go off the rules of the most recent books they have. With two versions of the rule it can cause confusion, not counting the confusion of the statement "the size of the whirlwind".


Seems fair.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Yah if Bestiary 4 now goes back to the original wording then that is the current RAW. We are back to size of whirlwind vs. size of creature question.


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The whirlwind power in Pathfinder is the same, verbatim, as D&D 3.5 except they changed "one or more size categories smaller than the elemental" to "one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind".

So, it seems to be a purposeful change, however, it doesn't properly fit the size rules, has no supporting verbiage added, and is definitely unclear.

I rule that the original text stands, "smaller than the elemental".


I'm very interested in finally getting an official answer to this issue. Is the original size of the creature what marks what creature sizes can the whirlwind affect (my take) or must we infer a size for the whirlwind given its height and width?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Two important considerations for this issue:

1) Bestiary 4 has been identified as having an extreme issue, reverting all the Universal Monster Rules to original Bestiary I text. Grab is wrong (states size limitation as one smaller rather than equal as errata'd in I and published in II and III. This is not a good source for definitive rules.

2) The Whirlwind universal monster rule will not say "size category of the elemental", because not all creatures with that ability are elementals. That's why it's in the universal rules, not the air elemental entry, as it was in the 3.5 Monster Manual. That's the reason for the text change.

As far as "hold 100 tiny, but can't pick up small" - that makes total sense to me - square-cube law. The wind force isn't sufficient to overcome the force of gravity on a larger creature. That's like asking why can a tornado pick up 100 screaming people but can't budge that 'equal-in-weight' 18-wheeler.

KalEl el Vigilante: There is no 'width' listed for whirlwind forms, so presumably that doesn't change from the base form.

Grand Lodge

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Actually, there are rules for what size different whirlwinds can pick up.

They just aren't where you think they would be :)

The prestige class storm kindler gets the whirlwind power *as per the universal monster rules*

http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Storm%20Ki ndler

Note that the size of creature the storm can pick up is directly tied to the height of the whirlwind, and that the size of creature picked up is not effected by the size of the character who takes the prestige class:

20' - small
30' - medium
40' - large
50' - huge
60' - huge


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
FLite wrote:

Actually, there are rules for what size different whirlwinds can pick up.

They just aren't where you think they would be :)

The prestige class storm kindler gets the whirlwind power *as per the universal monster rules*

This rather definitely proves that the height of the whirlwind doesn't affect the size of creatures that you can pick up. Since your size category doesn't change when becoming a whirlwind, the class's ability has to spell out what size you can affect.

Good find.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, there was an extended an slightly heated debate about this a while back, where someone was trying to use his air elemental familiar to fly, and his GM wanted help to stop him from doing it. I was origionally on the side "no, it doesn't work" and we quickly determined that the character, as built, couldn't do it, but I wound up being convinced by the end that with a different build it was doable.

Very painful, but doable. (Basically you get (effectively) at level 5 a mount with at will perfect 100 foot per move flight that doesn't provoke, in return for taking 1d4+1 damage per round, and 1 damage every time you dismount. 1d4-1 if you are an invulnerable rager barbarian :) )


FLite wrote:

Actually, there are rules for what size different whirlwinds can pick up.

They just aren't where you think they would be :)

The prestige class storm kindler gets the whirlwind power *as per the universal monster rules*

http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Storm%20Ki ndler

Note that the size of creature the storm can pick up is directly tied to the height of the whirlwind, and that the size of creature picked up is not effected by the size of the character who takes the prestige class:

20' - small
30' - medium
40' - large
50' - huge
60' - huge

First off, this is in no way "errata" of the Universal Monster rules. This seems to be a 3.5 OGL era Pathfinder Prestige Class; not the most closely reviewed material. It seems to have been replaced in Pathfinder compatible rules with the Master of Storms from Paths of Prestige. Wherein, the increasing size of creature lift-able is an aspect of the class feature Storm Shape.

The very fact that the class writers, in both cases, were forced to specify what size of creature is affected is proof that the rules aren't clear anywhere.

I think Majuba's two points cut to the heart of the issue.

The first is an important safety tip, and on wonders how on EARTH such an editing flub is even possible. Particularly without an immediate apology and correction by Paizo. Followed by an exchange for corrected second printings.

But the second point is where it's at. Namely, that the language was changed during the editing of SRD material to fit into the more universal rules in Pathfinder. To me, that simply proves that one should use the entirety of the text from the 3.5 air elemental to utilize Whirlwind in PF. This kind of incomplete word surgery is unfortunately rampant in the rules. Thanks Majuba.

Grand Lodge

Can'tFindthePath wrote:

First off, this is in no way "errata" of the Universal Monster rules. This seems to be a 3.5 OGL era Pathfinder Prestige Class; not the most closely reviewed material. It seems to have been replaced in Pathfinder compatible rules with the Master of Storms from Paths of Prestige. Wherein, the increasing size of creature lift-able is an aspect of the class feature Storm Shape.

Umm... I'm guessing you are using d20pfsrd.

Storm-kindler is the Paizo name for the class. From the book Paths of Prestige.

Master of storms is the name d20pfsrd uses because Storm Kindler is copyright. In fact, if you look at the d20pfsrd link to the class, it is called Storm-Kindler in the link, even though it is called Master of Storms on the page.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't exist in 3.5 rules.

Paths of Prestige is Copyright 2012, which I think makes it well past the 3.5 to PF transition.

Can'tFindthePath wrote:


But the second point is where it's at. Namely, that the language was changed during the editing of SRD material to fit into the more universal rules in Pathfinder. To me, that simply proves that one should use the entirety of the text from the 3.5 air elemental to utilize Whirlwind in PF. This kind of incomplete word surgery is unfortunately rampant in the rules. Thanks Majuba.

Alternately, it demonstrates that they *intended* to change the ability when they moved to PF. In a lot of cases, what you see as incomplete word surgery, most of us see as intentional rule changes.


I don't know how this is supposed to work, but I have an idea for consideration.

A small air elemental can make a whirlwind with a height of 20 feet. The rules say that the width of the vortex at the top is half the height of the whirlwind. So the vortex width is 10 feet. Which is enough for 1 large (10 foot base) creature. The rules for whirlwind also say it affects creatures one or more size categories smaller. So 10 foot base is a large creature, then one size categories smaller would be a medium creature. So my guess is that a small air elemental can make a whirlwind that can pick up 4 medium characters.

Then seizing it up, the medium air elemental has a height of 30 feet, making the width 15 feet. A 15 foot base is a huge creature. So it could pick up 1 large creature, or 1 large and 5 medium creatures, or 9 medium creatures.

This may be totally wrong, but submitted for thoughts. This might make the whirlwinds too strong.

Darthslash

Grand Lodge

Oh, hey, I just figured out why is says "one size smaller than the whirlwind" rather than "one size smaller than the creature that created the whirlwind."

They are the same thing.

UMR wrote:
Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have.

The creature is not creating a whirlwind, it is turning into a whirlwind. Thus the creature's size is whatever size the whirlwind is. Just as if a druid polymorphs into a large creature. Their size is now large.

So unless someone wants to argue that a 5' wide (at the base), 20 foot tall, with a 10 foot top creature fits the criterion for size small... :) I'm going to use the numbers for storm kindler.

That said, does anyone familiar with transformation rules in general know what happens to the character's gear? Is it like a druids gear and it gets absorbed? or does it just get dropped on the ground?


I think the Size (not size) of the Whirlwind is the same of the elemental. Besides everything already said, think about this: CR 1.

How on Earth would a CR 1 small creature be able to potentially deliver slam damage to up to 100 large creatures or 200 medium-small creatures (99% of PCs) in one round (what a double move amounts) and potentially carry a bunch of them inside? Potentially delivering slam damage to up to 400 tiny or smaller creatures seems more in line with the power level of a CR 1.


KalEl el Vigilante wrote:

I think the Size (not size) of the Whirlwind is the same of the elemental. Besides everything already said, think about this: CR 1.

How on Earth would a CR 1 small creature be able to potentially deliver slam damage to up to 100 large creatures or 200 medium-small creatures (99% of PCs) in one round (what a double move amounts) and potentially carry a bunch of them inside? Potentially delivering slam damage to up to 400 tiny or smaller creatures seems more in line with the power level of a CR 1.

Exactly.

Excellent point KalEl, I'm sorry to say I didn't think of it myself. We all concentrate too much on RAW, and never mind RAI....what about thinking for ourselves.

Even if the whirlwind rules clearly stated the sizes and capabilities that have been cited (and they do not), they would be wrong. We're not talking about a dogmatic slavery to "balance" here; we're talking about common sense GMing. Would you want PCs or NPCs having the power outlined from a 2nd level spell?

Grand Lodge

Except that the air elemental has transformed into a whirlwind one size larger. So it is now size medium, picking up size small. I grant that a twenty foot tall 5 foot base size medium is a stretch, but it is what the rules seem to suggest. (see my post above for what the rules say a 20' whirlwind can pick up.)

(As per the general rule on transmutation / polymorph effects, polymorph can only increase your size by one size category. So the most a small air elemental can become is a size medium creature.)

That would make it a size medium creature.

Thus able to pick up 2-4 small creatures at a time. (where are you getting that it can pick up large creatures at all? Even medium would not be allowed under what I posted above. And even under the most generous interpretation a size large creature will not fit *inside* a whirlwind that is 5 feet at the base, and 10 at the top. )

Also, remember that to be picked up and carried requires the creature to fail 2 saving throws. (At least that is my reading of it.)

Again for example. If I play a small sized character, and take the storm kindler prestige class, at second level I gain whirl wind *as per the UMR,* I get a 20' height, the same thing as a small air elemental. I gain the ability to pick up small creatures (explicitly.)

If I play a size large creature, and take two levels of storm kindler, I get to pick up the same small creatures, and have a whirlwind the same height. The rules don't say "you can pick up creatures one size smaller than your original size.
If I take a medium

Grand Lodge

For purposes of comparison:

Size small (CR1 air elemental) vs 100 small creatures with reflex saves of 12 (improbably low for small creatures) in a 100 ft straight line, Air elemental starts adjacent.
50 fail their save, take av damage 3.5 hp damage:
25 fail their second save, get carried and dropped for 0 damage. (elemental drops them in it's base square, it's base square is on the ground to pick up more people.

Total damage: 175

Level 2 pyromaniac gnome alchemist with 18 Int and explosive bomb and no equipment. (CR1) vs 25 creatures in a 5 by 5 square.

20 creatures take 6 splash damage: 120
1 creature takes 2d6+4 damage: ave 11 and burns indefinitely.

Total 131 damage vs 25 medium or smaller creatures from up to 100 feet away vs 175 damage vs 100 small or smaller creatures in a 100 foot line from 5 feet away.

I don't really feel we can say that max damage from an AoE based creature that assumes perfect circumstances is a disqualification.


A double move allows the whirlwind to double that damage input.

Sovereign Court

I wont quote srd or any other site or older bestiary 1-3, this is from the bestiary 4:

Bestiary 4 wrote:

Whirlwind (Su) Some creatures can transform

themselves into whirlwinds and remain in that form for
up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature has
a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while
in whirlwind form, otherwise it gains a fly speed equal
to its base land speed (average maneuverability) while in
whirlwind form.
The whirlwind is always 5 feet wide at its base, but its
height and width at the top vary from creature to creature
(minimum 10 feet high). A whirlwind's width at its peak is
always equal to half of its height. The creature controls the
exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet high.
The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of
opportunity, even if the creature enters the space another
creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in
the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if
the whirlwind moves into or through a creature's space.
A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal
attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

Creatures one or more size categories smaller than
the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the
whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's
slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted
into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a
Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's
Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with
the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the
whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed
on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held
suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking
the indicated damage each round.
A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each
round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes
damage but can leave if the save is successful.
Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except
to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the
whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally,
but must succeed on a concentration check (DC is + spell
level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take
a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls.
The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped
inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume.
The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it
wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.

If the whirlwind's base touches the ground, it creates
a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the
creature and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind's
height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision,
beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while
those farther away have total concealment. Those caught
in the cloud of debris must succeed on a concentration
check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.

Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10-30 ft. high, id6+6
damage, DC 15); Location: Special Attacks

- - -

Reading this ability, it states that the whirlwind Must be 10' Tall, while the base is Always 5'.
it then goes on to state that the width at its peak is half its height, which means it Must be at least 5' wide.

That means that a small air elemental Has to occupy a 5x10x5 space.
bigger than Small/Medium, but smaller than Large.
--
it also states that the original creature can control the size it takes. this leads one to believe that any creature could take the size of Colossal, however, the save DC for dmg and being picked up do not change, as they are based on statistics of the original creature.
--
the ability goes on to say that once you touch the whirlwind or enter its space or it enters yours, you are caught in the whirlwind
--
it also states a creature may be dmg'd and possibly trapped within it depending on size and outcome of its saves, saves that are based on original creatures statistics.
based on the smallest form of whirlwind, Small creatures and smaller will Always need to make these saves.
--
finally, the whirlwind can create a dust cloud, with a minimal diameter of 5', obscuring all vision beyond 5', with concealment based on range.
and if a caster is in the dust cloud, all spell casting will need a concentration check
--

Sovereign Court

Bestiary 1- Air Elemental, pg 121 wrote:


Whirlwind Whirlwind
Elemental Height Weight Save DC Height
Small 4 ft. 1 lb. 12 10–20 ft.
Medium 8 ft. 2 lbs. 14 10–30 ft.
Large 16 ft. 4 lbs. 18 10–40 ft.
Huge 32 ft. 8 lbs. 22 10–50 ft.
Greater 36 ft. 10 lbs. 23 10–60 ft.
Elder 40 ft. 12 lbs. 27 10–60 ft.

now based on these statistics, the small air elemental can be as large as:

5x20x10

which is the size of a Large creature, and easily able to trap creatures up to Medium size


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I've been following all of the arguments about what actual defines the SIZE of the whirlwind, and therefore what size creature it can pick up. As others have commented, it makes no game-balance sense that a small air elemental can pick up a creature based on the dimensions of the whirlwind. That's ridiculously overpowered. And I'd be careful about making an argument the other way; a GM can have a BBEG cast a SNA IV and unleash a gang of small air elementals on a 10th level fighter with crappy Reflex saves, with Mr. Fighter being taken 50' up and dropped for 5d6 damage over and over.

Furthermore, James Jacobs has already ruled that the "size" of the whirlwind = size of elemental. Live with it, folks. I would love to have my 6th level druid be able to pick up a Large 8 CR non-flying demon and drop it for 5d6 damage, but it ain't gonna happen.

Grand Lodge

Pi Master, did you read the rules I referenced, regarding the size rulings from the storm caller prestige class and what size creature each size whirlwind picks up.

Also, please remember that James Jacobs has repeatedly said that his rules calls represent the house rules he would use in his game, not the rules in general.

If you really care about balancing it, you can say that any one creature can only take damage from this once per round, under the justification that if it spent the whole round in the whirlwind, it would take this much damage so it would be silly to take more damage than that just because it passed through the whirlwind twice. (And under the justification that the GM can limit the number of free actions a character can take in one round and that these are essentially free actions.)


Yes i read the details of the storm kindler class and your proposal that an elemental turns into a whirlwind, and so doesn't change in size. Firstly, i thought both points were excellent. And your latter argument makes a good deal of sense. My main objection is to people using geometry calcs to advocate a game effect that is unbalancing. Then they use pseudo physics to prove that a little elemental should have the power to shut down powerful, high level foes.

Jacobs' word isn't errata gospel, but given that he backed it up with sound thinking, then his interpretation comes pretty darn close to definitive (ie, turning into whirlwind, unless specified, does not change "Size", as in,the capitalized, game mechanic property, not geometrical "size"). The once/round thing is fine, but that isn't what i was addressing. It is that 1 cr creatures can pick up a high level fighter, without danger of AoO, drop her from a 50', then when he hits the ground, another one does it again. That's crazy. But, i agree that whirlwind could've been written much more clearly by the devs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

The issue with the ruling in the Bestiary 4 is that they reprinted the rules from Bestiary 1 without the errata that was printed in 2 & 3. The question therefore becomes is Bestiary 4 RAW? or should we go back and use the Bestiary 3 rules because they represent the more current rules?

Note in addition to whirlwind the big one in Bestiary 4 was the reversion of Grab back to one size category smaller than the creature, rather than same size or smaller. Given that the errata for Bestiary 1 doesn't apply this means Grab is effectively nerfed until future errata or fixes for the Bestiary 4 book are released.

Sovereign Court

BBEG casting a 4th level spell on a fighter isn't an original or clever argument, and it can be spun many ways:

cast hold monster on fighter - low will saves = out of combat.
Ball of lightning, and summon 4 of them in the fighter's square = death
magic jar = take over fighter's body
dominate = have fighter kill party.

that analogy is like kicking a dead horse, you really don't have to try, and you will hit it.
spells are deadly with low save bonuses.

using the game's defined dimension system, isn't even close to applied physics. its called using the rules this edition of the game is based on.

all that said, it doesn't change the fact that this needs clarification.

a magical creature uses magic and changes/alters itself into a different shape.
this isn't a new thing either.
a lot of the polymorph spells/abilities change shape and size in the spell's description, why is it so hard to think this could be any different?

I think its called 'Magic' for a reason. and it doesn't have to make sense.


I think you misunderstand the argument. I disagree with poster on 2 points: that a) you "reach" for physics/math based arguments to, b) become overpowered. If you're going to be overpowered, there're are plenty of ways to do it within the rules.

In reference to my objection (b): Your example uses a BBEG who can cast a 4th level spell, therefore implying that he is at least a 7th level-equivalent (i.e. ~7 CR) creature. This BBEG uses one of his highest level spells/effects to neutralize the mid-level fighter. The BBEG is expending two valuable resources in the economy of Pathfinder: 1) a limited spell/ability, and 2) a valuable standard action. If the fighter makes the save, the BBEG is going to get a foot in his butt come the next round.

With the small air elemental example, the BBEG doesn't use his own actions, and he doesn't expend his own spell/ability. The air elemental hovering next to him turns into a whirlwind, runs along 4-5 squares, vacuums up whichever of the party members fail the save, ascends at 1/2 speed (e.g. 40'), and drops them all for 4d6+slam. And that's only for 1 small elemental.

Yes it's called "magic" in the game, but this is a special form of magic called "munchkin math magic". Don't reach for weird mathy/physics type reasons to overpower your character. Just do it and have fun.

Yes, the whirlwind rule needs to be explained better given the confusion in the bestiaries. But that's true for a thousand other entries on monsters/feats/abilities/etc.

Sovereign Court

Pi Master wrote:

The air elemental hovering next to him turns into a whirlwind, runs along 4-5 squares, vacuums up whichever of the party members fail the save, ascends at 1/2 speed (e.g. 40'), and drops them all for 4d6+slam. And that's only for 1 small elemental.

couple key points that were neglected to be include in that summary of awesomeness:

Summon monster is a full round action.
Summon spells last 1 round per level.

for the air elemental to pick anyone up, that player needs to fail 2, that's two, reflex saves. both at a DC 12

if that same fighter is going to fail 2 saves at DC 12, then that same fighter will easily fail 1 will save dc 14 against a 1st lvl suggestion spell to jump off a cliff.
falling for 100' for 10d6 dmg.


Summoners' Summon Monster (or Idyllkin's Summon Nature's Ally II) is a standard action and lasts 1 minute/level.

Anyway, the summoner (or Summoner)'s CR isn't important: that's the regular means to bring the elemental in game. It's the Small Air Elemental the one with the CR 1.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202855055768083&set=gm.101529 48767966388&type=3

someone worked out the details...

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