1) This is poorly defined. Feel free to house rule, but considering they also get a save I would probably let them have it at 1 larger than their usual size category, as long as enemy elementals get the same in future.
2) Their argument here is that the save comes from Wildshape, which as a supernatural ability would have a save of 10+1/2HD+relevant stat, but since the relevant stat isn't defined, that would actually default to Charisma. Again, as the GM you should determine which DC (using Wis, Str, or Cha, all of which an argument can be made for) leads to the most enjoyable game.
3) I believe it does. The wording is slightly ambiguous and I would like developer clarification.
4) From what I can tell, whirlwind form continues using encumbrance.
1-3 can all change the balance of the ability based on your rulings. Depending how much you think the ability will contribute to the game, feel free to have some of the answers be slightly different to the read-as-written, especially since the wording for the ability is often ambiguous anyway.
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2.) I've seen people argue this three different ways.
The first is to use Strength, as the Universal Monster Rule.
The second and third are different interpretations of the quotes below.
This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. [...] When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.
Elemental Body is from the Polymorph school, which says the following:
The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
Some folks say that for a Druid, you use wisdom. Some folks say it's an SLA with an unspecified stat, so Charisma. Nothing's 100% clear by RAW on this one (though someone will jump on my saying that insisting that it is).
I tagged this thread with a FAQ request as I suggest others do to get this clarified one way or another.
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1) This question has been argued pretty well by people on both sides, so I don't think you're players were trying to fast talk you, since I've seen passionate arguments for each viewpoint.
But, here's the issue I have. There are small, medium, large, huge elementals. They didn't just give them those names for anything, and they have listed size categories, and small air elemental is listed as "Small". Secondly, while the VOLUME of an air elemental might be larger, it still only weighs 1 pound. So, it seems strange that 1 pound of air in a whirlwind could pick up a large creature (e.g., a dire tiger is a large creature that can weigh roughly 6,000 pounds). Sure, the small elemental goes from 4' tall to 10-20' tall, but it's still just 1 pound of air. Finally, they list the size of the vortex in the same row as the size of the elemental being "small", so you would think they would probably give the vortex a different size category or make some note of it.
IN ADDITION, you'll note that the volume of the whirlwind is mentioned when it comes to the NUMBER of creatures it can hold, but I think it still requires the size of each individual creature to be the size of the elemental. I think this is because the amount of wind generated is only enough to lift creatures who weigh roughly what a creature should weigh at different size categories.
2) Save DC is 12 for small, 14 for medium, 18 for large, 22 for huge elementals. It is a vortex ability of the elemental (not of the druid), and there is nothing that seems related to the strength or some innate stat of the elemental (which wild shape only gives certain listed benefits/effects). It appears to be just a straight up ability from the vortex itself and thus it get's that elemental's DC saves as listed. So, I don't think there is anything you modify.
Another way to look at it relates to question #1. If you say a small elemental can only pick up small creatures, then does it really matter what the druid's strength is when in that form? What if the druid had a 30 strength, would it still only pick up small creatures because it's a vortex from a small elemental. If you say it's just small creatures because the vortex is what picks them up, not the strength of the elemental, then the DC is just what it is listed, no modifications.
If you decide a 30 strength druid in small elemental whirlwind can pick up things based upon the strength of the druid, then the DC would vary by stats of the druid versus what is picked up. That's a lot of work, and thus why I think the game tries to keep it simple with a specific size category and a specific DC save.
3) Yes. It says "when it comes into contact" the first save is to avoid the damage, not avoid the contact. So, when it comes into contact it "must" make a second save to avoid being picked up.
So, contact requires 2 saves, one for damage and one for being lifted. It's not if you don't take damage, you can't be lifted. If that was the case, it would read something like "on a failed save, the character must make a second save for..." and that's not the way it is written.
4)Encumbrance rules apply outside of the whirlwind form, since that's a function of the druid's modified strength. You wouldn't count the creatures in the whirlwind as additional encumbrance, as they are flying around inside (hence the static DC save). If you were to have a modified DC save for the whirlwind based upon the Druid's strength, then you could say that the weight would include the creatures inside. Can't have it both ways.
Hope that helps.
1) I asked a question about the size a few weeks ago. Feel free to give it a FAQ. See this post:
Air Elemental Whirlwind Size
2) I also FAQ'd the same thread as Skaldi the Tallest in reference to the save DCs. I currently use the DC as if I cast the spell.
3) I agree with Moondragon Starshadow
4) I agree with Moondragon Starshadow
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I have a PFS Druid, level 8, and I GM often. Here's how I'd rule:
1) The whirlwind is the same size category as that of the elemental. How tall the vortex is doesn't matter, since not all creatures of the same size category are the same height (giants vs horses, for example). Combat is abstract, and limiting things to size categories allows for the least table variance.
2) Up until recently I calculated my DCs as 10 + SL of the beastshape I was using + WIS modifier, although I now believe it may be 10 + 1/2HD + CHA modifier. Until it is resolved with an FAQ, there will be table variance here, so going forward, if you ever GM another Druid, ask them what they use ahead of game, and have them stick with it. 10 + 1/2HD + STR mod is flat out. Due to the polymorph subschool rules, it would be either of the two methods I mentioned earlier.
3) and 4) I am not sure on, but I'm sure a thorough search of the Rules forum will bring up other conversations on the matter.
Happy GMing!
1) the whirlwind description doesn't talk about size categories, it talks about volume... "The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind's volume." the whirlwind ability tells you how big the whirlwind is... a 20' whirlwind is 10' wide at the top, so assume a column of two 5' squares and two 10' squares... which would hold 10 medium size creatures or 2 medium creatures and 1 large creature. no quick rules... gotta work it out for each size whirlwind.
2) the polymorph subschool specifies that the dc of special abilities matches the dc of the spell used to polymorph into that form... it's not straightforward, because it lists several things which have no dcs, then says dcs match the spell, but it wasn't intended to be a comprehensive list of all abilities granted by polymorph spells:
"In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form."
so, depending on which elemental body spell the wild shape ability is using, the whirlwind dc would be 14/15/16/17+wis mod
note that this would apply to poison (snakes,etc.), trample (treants), vortex (w.elemental), and burn (f.elemental), as well as whirlwind, based upon the spell wild shape is using for that form.
if you don't like that rule, or find it too vague, then the dcs listed for the air elementals don't apply, either, as they are not size-based, despite what the table looks like... those dcs are based upon 10+(1/2)hd+str, per the whirlwind description: you'd end up with 10+(1/2)druidlevel+str (not wis)... always using the druid's own stats in place of the base creature's.
3) the whirlwind description says "and must also" save vs. being picked up. so, damage and pickup both apply, regardless of either's success or failure.
4) i would assume not... it's a special ability that isn't really intended for creatures interested in carrying gear. it's an attack form that already describes how many creatures it can affect (by volume). if any druid attempted to abuse the ability by carrying friends or equipment, you would just apply whirlwind damage to the friends or equipment every round.
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The problem is that is the Bestiary 2 & 3 entries were invalidated when they reprinted the Bestiary 1 ruling in Bestiary 4. Until/unless this rule is updated (such as bestiary 5) the volume rule isn't in play the the rule is again based on the size of the whirlwind so listed in that book:
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than
the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the
whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster’s
slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted
into the air.
So the volume restriction is no longer in play but the size restriction is. Using the size of the elemental seems to be the board consensus and reasonable as well.
I know I had a fun PFS build lined up to go that will now sit on the shelves til this changes.
i just read the b4 description, and it hasn't changed the volume restriction, at all... not in my hardcopy, at any rate.
there are two restrictions on creatures that are lifted... one is the size of each individual creature, which exists in both b1 and b4, but the other was the number of creatures that can be lifted, which is based on volume in both b1 and b4.
the two restrictions are listed in separate paragraphs... the paragraphs starting with "creatures one or more size categories smaller..." and "creatures trapped in the whirlwind..."
b2 & b3 removed the size limit on creatures that can be lifted, but they still retained the volume limit on number of creatures.
i guess, as far as the original question (1), i'd say the whirlwind is the same size category as the base creature. just treat it like all the other size limits on special abilities (swallow, trample, etc) and don't think too hard about the altered form.
dwarves and humans are both medium size creatures... just use a 5' cube for each, based on their 'space' in the monster manual.
the rule was 'one size smaller', so a medium elemental could pick up some number of small sized creatures... however-many 5' cubes fit into a 30' whirlwind... about 18, maybe?
Well, if you want to get technical about it: the volume of a cone is:
1/3 x pi x r^2 x h.
So, both height and radius have to be a minimum of 10. The height of a medium air elemental whirlwind can be 10-30', so let's say 20' for height and 15' for radius.
That would be: 1/3 x 3.14 x 225 x 20 = 4,710 cubic feet of volume.
the whirlwind is half as wide at the top as it is tall, per the description of whirlwind, so per the cone math above, r=h/4, always: volume=pi(h^3)/12
but that's not awfully helpful, for game mechanics.
a 20' whirlwind would be 10' across at the top, or more simply, two 5' cubes and one 10' cube... for 10 5' cubes, altogether.
if using this less rigorously mathematical method, you'd try to use the spell radius templates for area effects, and then stack them from the widest at the top to 5' at the bottom. and once you calculate a smaller whirlwind, you use that as a base before adding the next 10' of height for the next one.
it's not a great method, but they didn't make it awfully clear. you could work out the volume of the five possible whirlwind sizes ahead of time in 5' cube units and just save it so you don't have to work it out, again.
size, sum of areas by top diameter=> ~total 5' cubes
20', 2x5+2x10=> 10 cubes
30', 2x5+2x10+2x15=> 25 cubes
40', 2x5+2x10+2x15+2x20=> 50 cubes
50', 2x5+2x10+2x15+2x20+2x25=> 85 cubes
60', 2x5+2x10+2x15+2x20+2x25+2x30=> 135 cubes
small and medium creatures would occupy 1 cube each.
large creatures would occupy 8 cubes each.
a 20' whirlwind would hold 80 tiny creatures, so you could prob just say any whirlwind can pick up any number of tiny or smaller creatures, to make it simple.