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I have a question concerning recording purchases on chronicle sheets. For items that players purchase between scenarios, or as initial purchases or purchases from a character they've built with GM or Player credit, do I need to record each individual item on the chronicle sheet, or can I simply put a line that says "Purchases: XXXXgp"?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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On the chronicle sheet you don't have to list everything you bought, and only include a total GP spent, but it doesn't hurt to do.
Just remember that everything you buy worth more than 25gp needs to listed on your Item Tracking Sheet, and there is an entry for the sequenced number of the chronicle the purchase was made.
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Yeah, I personally find it convenient to put everything (even below 25gp) on the ITS. Allows for accounting checking and so forth.
Indeed, I'd just assume remove all the gold accounting from Chronicle sheets, and start adding lines to the ITS that represent "deposits" -- gold you get from playing scenarios, as well as expenditures during scenarios that aren't purchases. This would have two advantages:
(1) All your gold expenditures would now be in one place. Right now, it's kind of an all-over-the-place mess, and if you aren't careful or make mistakes, it's nearly impossible to reconstruct what happened. All the accounting in one place would be much cleaner.
(2) It would bring the requirements of chronicle sheets closer to the reality. Right now, the PFS Guide says that the GM is only supposed to sign off on a fully filled-out chronicle sheet. I've never seen any GM but myself do that, and I stopped doing that two years ago. Everybody else fills out the GM sections and the name at the top, signs it, and hands it out to players. They let the players fill in the accounting on the right (including gold spent buying stuff) on their own time. Since this is (as far as I can tell) near-universal practice, let's just codify it as the way it should be done. Accountability can now be in one place, on the ITS. Audit whenever. Games don't have time for GMs to do partial audits every time, it's annoying, players and GMs don't like to do it, and nobody actually does it.
I know that some people would complain that this would make PFS more like business accounting, that your ITS would turn into a check register. But, think about it: it's actually *less* paperwork than we are nominally supposed to do right now. It would greatly simplify dealing with the actual chronicle sheets, which are the things that interrupt the game (and are often crunched for time because of a cramped time slot).
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I still put everything on my Chronicles in addition to the ITS. The ITS just serves as a nice quick reference sheet for what I have on hand.
Especially since I use a modified ITS that keeps track of expensive consumables. Instead of adding an extra line for every Adamantine Durable Arrow (for example), I instead circle another box (which I'll then X out when I inevitably lose it).
Writing them on the Chronicle Sheet is really the only way to keep track of the actual purchase.
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(2) It would bring the requirements of chronicle sheets closer to the reality. Right now, the PFS Guide says that the GM is only supposed to sign off on a fully filled-out chronicle sheet. I've never seen any GM but myself do that, and I stopped doing that two years ago. Everybody else fills out the GM sections and the name at the top, signs it, and hands it out to players. They let the players fill in the accounting on the right (including gold spent buying stuff) on their own time. Since this is (as far as I can tell) near-universal practice, let's just codify it as the way it should be done. Accountability can now be in one place, on the ITS. Audit whenever. Games don't have time for GMs to do partial audits every time, it's annoying, players and GMs don't like to do it, and nobody actually does it.I know that some people would complain that this would make PFS more like business accounting, that your ITS would turn into a check register. But, think about it: it's actually *less* paperwork than we are nominally supposed to do right now. It would greatly simplify dealing with the actual chronicle sheets, which are the things that interrupt the game (and are often crunched for time because of a cramped time slot).
I agree with this 100%, because I don't necessarily know what I'll be buying after a scenario until I know what the gold totals will be, and even if I did plan around a prospective gold total, consumable costs could wreck that plan - what if there's a Raise Dead in there, or what if I used a potion of fly that I kept in reserve and need to replace it? I mean, the only exception here is big-ticket items that you save for multiple scenarios to afford (here's lookin' at you, Staff of the Master).
When GMing, I would much rather let the players take their time to figure out purchases, as well. In that regard, a "check register" format ITS makes A LOT of sense. Honestly, I'd like if all scenarios in a given subtier had identical gold instead of the minor variances, as well, or major variances in some cases.
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I still put everything on my Chronicles in addition to the ITS. The ITS just serves as a nice quick reference sheet for what I have on hand.
Especially since I use a modified ITS that keeps track of expensive consumables. Instead of adding an extra line for every Adamantine Durable Arrow (for example), I instead circle another box (which I'll then X out when I inevitably lose it).
Writing them on the Chronicle Sheet is really the only way to keep track of the actual purchase.
I have mine set up as In stock Bought Used
Having a personal fixer follower is good for the free stuff, but amazing for avoiding the ITS paperwork.
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First of all, I'm one of those GM's that does fill out the chronicle and makes sure things are correct before i put my name on it. I also GM exclusively online, so i have to do everything as a PDF, which adds another layer of complexity to the whole affair...
IMO, I would much rather the chronicles be more like certificates of achievement... in other words, you complete the scenario, and i hand you a sheet stating whether or not you survived, what success conditions you've met, and how much xp, gold and prestige you've earned. that's it. at that point, my involvement as the GM should end. i should not have to track your current xp, gold, prestige, purchases, consumables used, etc... NONE of that! ALL of that should fall on the player to keep track of. I've already invested enough extra time in just getting the scenario prepped and reported. Handing out the chronicle at the end of it all should be completely painless, unlike the frustrating mess it is now.
I love PFS, but i absolutely hate chronicles.
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Yes, but once i sign it, the document is locked and can't be edited. That's why I get stuck with adding in all the rest.
That's not your responsibility.
The player must print out the physical Chronicle Sheet.
They fill in the rest.
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I think moving forward, I'm just going to request their PFS ID# for reporting purposes, fill out the GM fields on the chronicle, then email it to them so they can fill out the rest. Then, when they're done, they can send it back to me so I can verify everything and if it all checks out, sign it and be done with it. It would definitely make my life easier, that's for sure.
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Yes, but once i sign it, the document is locked and can't be edited. That's why I get stuck with adding in all the rest.
This is why they moved to the ITS. The way you're still doing it the player can't take the time to shop in between games, he has to tell either you or the next dm what they were buying.
Since you were apparently the only one actually going along with official policy they changed the official policy :)
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Wow! That far back!
So, I went and dug through the season 7 guidebook and I noticed two things that seem to contradict what has been said here...
one... (Pg.22)"A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items.
This can be done before, during or after the adventure. All transactions must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle
sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracking
Sheet."
two... (Pg.37)"Step 8: Have the player note all items purchased or sold, including spellcasting services, in the notes section (V)."
Also, just out of curiosity, I looked at the chronicle sheet for Trouble in Tamran, a season 7 scenario, and the field where the purchases and such would normally be recorded, is gone.
So now i'm really confused, lol! :)
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I write every single purchase on my ITS (yes, even cheap mundane items) and keep a running total of my purchases in the margin on my ITS. And I'll put a number there for the scenario number at the end of each scenario. I don't mark any gold spent on my chronicle sheet unless it was actually spent as part of the adventure (i.e. bribes, bar drinks, etc). So this way I know my current "max gold spent" and "max gold available". It's much easier to track this than the constant subtracting/adding from scenario to scenario.
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Technically, Briank is right. The Guide still says GMs have to wait for the entire chronicle to be filled out before they sign it. I've seen exactly ZERO actually GMs do it this way, in over 200 tables played/GMed, but that's the RAW.
Which just says to me that the RAW is silly and should be changed.
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Brian you have every right to enforce that they purchase everything prior to signing it, since it is in the guide.
That said "Taking off my VL hat" It is generally not done and there will be no "PFS" police that will take away your GM card if you don't.
I wish they would take it out of the guide, it has got to be the most not followed rule in the guide.
A better practice is to look at the prior chronicle sheet/ITS to verify that they added the latest items they bought between scenarios.
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Hmm... here, in FtF games with the local group, people fill out their entire Chronicle before it gets signed, because that's the rule. People can't "purchase items between games", because they have to do so with a GM present, because those are the rules. In practice, they make the notes on their ITS with the next Chronicle# filled in, and it gets done at the beginning of their next session.
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Hmm... here, in FtF games with the local group, people fill out their entire Chronicle before it gets signed, because that's the rule. People can't "purchase items between games", because they have to do so with a GM present, because those are the rules. In practice, they make the notes on their ITS with the next Chronicle# filled in, and it gets done at the beginning of their next session.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That!, especially at conventions. But you have every right to enforce it, though it would be near impossible to do so at large conventions.
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There is no such thing as "RAW".
If what is being said here was true, then online PbP could not exist, because not a single GM is in the physical presence of any of the players.
See how silly claims of "RAW" can be?
Look at the Chronicle example given to us in the Guide of what a GM needs to fill out.
The lines with totals are not included.
Leave them blank for the players to fill out.
Less stress, less time. Done and done.
If you decide to do it anyways, just know that you're creating more work for yourself, and probably more stress for your players. If you must do it, ask yourself why, and how it contributes positively to anything.
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First, thanks to everyone for responding :)
Understand this, my only PFS exposure has been through the VTT, Fantasy Grounds. Within that community, the GM fills out everything on the chronicle; from the player name, down to the final box, signs it and then sends it over to you. I imagine this is due to the nature of digitally signed documents. But this is the reason I thought this was the way it was done and the reason for my initial question of whether or not I had to itemize a player's purchases on his or her chronicle.
Now that I know that part of filling out a chronicle is the player's responsibility, I will be handling this much differently. Thanks to everyone for helping me clarify that :)
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I think the confusion from online only GMs might be that you see the chronicle as a digital document. That's why you think it has to be completely filled out before being signed, since it can't be modified any more after that.
But it's not a digital document. Chronicles are physical sheets of printed paper, and that's what counts.
In the case of online play, the digital document is how the GM sends the chronicle to the player, with their parts filled out. But it's the player's job to print it out and finish filling in the parts that aren't complete. It doesn't matter that the player can't modify the digital document, because they're supposed to print it and finish it with a pen or pencil, instead.
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Hmm... here, in FtF games with the local group, people fill out their entire Chronicle before it gets signed, because that's the rule. People can't "purchase items between games", because they have to do so with a GM present, because those are the rules. In practice, they make the notes on their ITS with the next Chronicle# filled in, and it gets done at the beginning of their next session.
That's how we do it in Omaha.
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. People can't "purchase items between games", because they have to do so with a GM present
Except when you can explicitly buy stuff in between scenarios
Her Fame might also
afford her certain titles and incidental privileges and
allow her to purchase spells and items from her faction
between scenarios.
If you need to go all rules lawyery, we're all potential DMs....
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There is no such thing as "RAW".
I haven't before and still don't understand why you insist on making this claim. Of course there's such a thing as it. Just because you don't like the term doesn't mean it's not a real thing.
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You're not supposed to do any of that.
You literally do just put what they earned.
I had one GM online that tried filling in my totals for me, and I had to ask him to leave them blank.
It must be a common misconception with GMing online.
Yes, but you aren't supposed to sign it until all of those boxes are filled out.
I used to make folks tell me what to put in them so that I could fill them out when I ran online, and I used to make players at F2F tables fill them out. Eventually I gave in and did what everybody else does. I predict briank2112 gets to that state as well.
I really want to see the rules reflect reality.
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There is no such thing as "RAW".I haven't before and still don't understand why you insist on making this claim. Of course there's such a thing as it. Just because you don't like the term doesn't mean it's not a real thing.
Here is an excellent philosophical viewpoint of the subject.
In this case, the author is discussing professional baseball. You would think that in a sport that generates annually, that RAW would reign above all else. Not so fast. The author explains it much better than I possibly could, but the TL;DR is "the spirit of the game" (RAI) is more important than the rules.
Very interesting read.
A notable quote from the linked text:
Rules should be interpreted in such a manner that the excellences embodied in achieving the lusory goal of the game are not undermined but are maintained and fostered.
Something to consider when applying rules in an activity that we engage in as amateur recreation.* These Chronicles foster the spirit of the organized play, but let's not let the rules for filling them out be so burdensome to inhibit the actual goal of the game: having fun in a social setting. We aren't talking about tax forms here.
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Yes, but once i sign it, the document is locked and can't be edited. That's why I get stuck with adding in all the rest.This is why they moved to the ITS. The way you're still doing it the player can't take the time to shop in between games, he has to tell either you or the next dm what they were buying.
Since you were apparently the only one actually going along with official policy they changed the official policy :)
When was this policy changed? Do you have a link? The PFS Guide version 7.0 pages 36-37 is very clear that you're not supposed to sign until the entire chronicle sheet is filled out.
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Maybe we're just thorough here in the City in the Center of the States, but Omaha's procedure is:
1)Fill out top line (Name, Number, Faction)
2)Fill out XP, PP, GP, Day Jobs
3)Hand it to players to "Do math and get it back to me."
*Between-scenario purchases always go on the next chronicle.
4)Afterwards, get it back, look it over, THEN sign it.
We never seem to have issues of missing chronicles or incomplete or partially filled out ones. Curious how a little enforcement goes a long way.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There is no such thing as "RAW".I haven't before and still don't understand why you insist on making this claim. Of course there's such a thing as it. Just because you don't like the term doesn't mean it's not a real thing.Here is an excellent philosophical viewpoint of the subject.
In this case, the author is discussing professional baseball. You would think that in a sport that generates annually, that RAW would reign above all else. Not so fast. The author explains it much better than I possibly could, but the TL;DR is "the spirit of the game" (RAI) is more important than the rules.
To add to the fun, there is no requirement to follow Rules-As-Written in PFS. The requirement in PFS is Run-As-Written, which means you cannot contradict rules or scenarios, but you may interpret them in any reasonable way you wish that will improve the experience at your table. Subtle difference, but if you believe in Rules-As-Written, subtle differences are important, right?
TINOTR
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To add to the fun, there is no requirement to follow Rules-As-Written in PFS. The requirement in PFS is Run-As-Written, which means you cannot contradict rules or scenarios, but you may interpret them in any reasonable way you wish that will improve the experience at your table. Subtle difference, but if you believe in Rules-As-Written, subtle differences are important, right?
TINOTR
very much so. I have seen some invenerate raw rules lawyery types get very dismayed when PFS was not the promised land of raw they were promised.
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Personal anecdote time:
In a different campaign, it has been required that all purchases/expenditures/effects/etc. be handled and signed off by GMs prior to *leaving the table*.
Unlike the chronicle system in PFS, or the various 'work-arounds' to make the game playable (and ensure that players either get home at a timely hour/next slot on time) it was generally viewed as a responsibility of the *player* to arrange for a GM signature after all math was completed. Not signed? Too bad, one loses.
/end anecdotal.
This does not, however, take into account that in a time-crunch situation, one may make erroneous purchases and knee-jerk reaction buys based on an encounter within the scenario without regard to complete character development.
Given that there's a *penalty* to 'selling back' gear one does not need/want/would not have gotten except for a time-sensitive context, my personal perspective would be to 'not be a jerk' as a GM and insist everyone do all their math and hand sheets back to me before leaving.
If one has a character that has been taking a lot of face-plant action due to an unlucky run of the dice (not poor tactics, not lack of support on party part, etc) and they purchase an item to mitigate that solely based on one scenario, when the issue doesn't come up in subsequent scenarios, that can become crippling in terms of future development and finite resource management (as now said characters have to make a choice. Either keep that item they bought 'in the heat of the moment' that does NOTHING for their character or sell it back for 'half price'.)
In addition, there are some very *neat* chronicles that very much have prohibitive costs for the items on said chronicles, such that players may not be able to purchase said items for their characters in the context of that scenario, but a future one.
In a perfect world, each player in such a situation would then need to produce the chronicle that provides the overpriced option in some subsequent scenario where they can actually afford it, and then get the GM to sign off on it. Ideally, that could take five minutes. Multiplied against a table of six players, that's half an hour under ideal circumstances.
In less than ideal circumstances, it could take an hour above and beyond the scenario completion, and as most slots either push the envelope on scenario completion and/or finish within forty-five minutes of the end of a five-hour slot, that becomes a less than viable option.
Thank you very much for your time and patience, may you have a great evening.
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Maybe we're just thorough here in the City in the Center of the States, but Omaha's procedure is:
1)Fill out top line (Name, Number, Faction)
2)Fill out XP, PP, GP, Day Jobs
3)Hand it to players to "Do math and get it back to me."
*Between-scenario purchases always go on the next chronicle.
4)Afterwards, get it back, look it over, THEN sign it.We never seem to have issues of missing chronicles or incomplete or partially filled out ones. Curious how a little enforcement goes a long way.
I used to do it that way myself. (Or, for online games, ask players what to put in.) But, people would be quite put off by it, and I literally never saw any other GM do it. So I decided to go with the flow.
Enforcement would go a long way, sure, but I think that the momentum is so far in the other direction that changes of changing it are small.
Also, many a time I have been very rushed at the end of a scenario slot, and doing all of that would have been prohibitive... especially if players weren't used to it, and would wonder what the hell was wrong with me.
In any event, I don't believe all of this is really necessary. I think that future season chronicle sheets should remove all that accounting, and the ITS should be turned into a thing that lets you track all of your gold incoming and outcoming, and that players should have the freedom to do purchases between scenarios on their own, as long as they're all documented in the ITS. It would simplify our lives greatly, and I don't think there'd be any loss of accountability. We should strongly encourage GMs and VOs to look over ITSes every so often, but I suspect most people would just behonest, and mistakes would mostly be minor.
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I still put everything on my Chronicles in addition to the ITS. The ITS just serves as a nice quick reference sheet for what I have on hand.
Especially since I use a modified ITS that keeps track of expensive consumables. Instead of adding an extra line for every Adamantine Durable Arrow (for example), I instead circle another box (which I'll then X out when I inevitably lose it).
Writing them on the Chronicle Sheet is really the only way to keep track of the actual purchase.
We don't usually have time for all the bookwork at the end of a session. So the item tracking sheet is kinda important. The main things we use the chronicle to record expendatures for is stuff like disease/curse removal. So far at least. Nobody's actually died. Wait, no. I think we had one person die, but they were playing a pregen. And we still pooled together to help them revive so the chronicle could be applied for xp and prestige once they made a character.
EDIT: As for purchases, we don't generally have time for that after a session. Everyone has to leave, or the store's about to close (or once actually closed an hour previous). Since I have to print off a new sheet when I level or buy items (well, beyond the consumables I'm merely replacing) I record what I'm buying in Hero Lab and my tracking sheet, print off the updated character, then actually buy it at the start of the next session I play that character.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Hmm... here, in FtF games with the local group, people fill out their entire Chronicle before it gets signed, because that's the rule. People can't "purchase items between games", because they have to do so with a GM present, because those are the rules. In practice, they make the notes on their ITS with the next Chronicle# filled in, and it gets done at the beginning of their next session.That's how we do it in Omaha.
That caught me off guard when I visited. Especially when the GM chided me for filling it out in pencil.