The Reasons and Method of Lichdom: A (Hopefully) Civil Discussion

[mourge40k]

Ohgodthisalreadyfeelslikeamistake.

Hey folks! So, after reading a recent thread about why all undead are evil and if they should be, I started thinking about the hoops a Lich has to leap through in order to achieve their "immortality." And, quite frankly, I'm having some trouble thinking of instances where becoming a Lich isn't something that would make a good person flinch away at least some. Here's a few examples that follow, and I'd like you guys to list yours as well in order to build up a directory of sorts.

Rise of the Runelords Example:

Vorel had to trap the souls of more than a few very long-lived things in order to just make his phylactery, some of which were evil, most of which were not. While technically neutral, I personally think that this falls into the whole "self-serving" evil thing as mentioned in the neutral evil alignment.

MAJOR CARRION CROWN SPOILERS:

The Carrion Crown formula itself requires trapping a good-aligned ghost, tearing the heart out from a potent living being, and building a skull out of the fragments of those who had been pretty much slaughtered and left as restless spirits (who were probably not wholly evil, going by the remaining haunts). Oh, and it has to be force fed to someone related to good old Tar-Baphon himself, which kills the individual and leaves them as an empty shell for the Whispering Tyrant to take over. Not much here for me to find as a good act, in all honesty.

Personal Homegame Lich Monologue!:

"I like a joke as well as the next person lass," Matt would say, his tone calm. "But I'd never joke about that. I was a scared teenager who had to confront his own mortality while being surrounded by immortal monsters. I had been taught for years that if I was to do something, then any means were acceptable to accomplish it. And so I had to perfect the formula, make sure that I would remain meself once I made the change. And that meant testing the end product on various people, to see what happened. That's why I did it.

I looked long and hard for people that met me criteria. Thieves who ruined the people they left behind, murderers, rapists, other general scum o' the earth no one would ever miss. I'd watch in between me other jobs, get to know their habits, their vices, their virtues. Then, when the time was right, I'd take 'em. Make no mistake, lass: Every person I took deserved what was comin' to them. Sure, they got a taste o' power that few others got before, but they also got a swift death to ensure complete study and a lack of loose ends.

What was harder to do was get the notes for comparison purposes. For that, I stole from me teachers. They were the ones who raised me, who taught me that anything that if I was to do something, then I was to do it with no regrets, with no hesitation. Wasn't much of a life, but it was what I had. That, and the extra notes from people who tried to hunt me down simply because of who I worked for, led to my final results. Wonderful, innit?"

In short, have any of you actually had a lich in-game that wasn't evil? And if so, what made it so?

[Tammy the Lich]

Tammy isn't civil.

But she is civilized.

[Azri, the Lich of Khalharum]

Azri isn't evil.

Background:

Much like what was going on in Carrion Crown, Azri did not become a lich by choice, but because of a powerful curse whose nature has yet to be fully explored. Given how unusual this is, you can reasonably assume that this isn't just 'a dead guy put a nasty curse on his tomb', but was probably significantly more... interesting.

It doesn't hurt that shortly after changing, she got wrecked by a high-level adventurer, and that pretty thoroughly eliminated any arrogance or willingness to see living things as 'weak'. The implication was that if she turned evil, she would be ended next time, and she's taken that lesson to hea- er, she learned it well.

While not evil, she does have problems with emotions, and because of this often forgets important details about how others view things. This can make her seem standoffish, and perhaps not terribly sympathetic, which is part of why she's Lawful Neutral.

Goal-wise, the party is attempting to rebuild and then rule a city, and Azri intends for this to be a permanent job. Rather than secluding herself in research, she plans to actively support magical education, and as such she has a greater connection to the world than most liches would.

[Nox Aeterna]

Had most monster in the game with diferent alignments than one would expect actually.

Just ended an adventure in a city where my PC is leaving his lawful neutral vampire friend to take his succubus chaotic good friend home.

Honestly i guess it depends on the GM the most , some prefer a more gray world where your monster type wont directly say what one must be , while many follow the formula , there are plenty who dont and some GMs prefer a more by the book play where 99,99% of a certain monster are of whatever alignment is written there.

Personally i prefer these gray worlds more , but i obviously dont think anyone is wrong by playing the game by the book and making it a more black and white world.

[Slithery D]

The Eternal Apotheosis lich ritual in Occult Realms inflicts 20d6 untyped damage on your victims used to boost the success of the ritual. Technically you could do it solo and without hurting/killing anyone if you have the ability to autosucceed on DC 34 skill checks for Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Spellcraft, but by the time you're of a level that you can do that you probably have better options for power and immortality than lichdom.

[Newbonomicon]

Becoming a lich is supposed to be a horrible process, done only by the most twisted and evil spellcasters. The idea of someone becoming a lich through some kind of non-evil means sounds completely ridiculous to me. A lich is such an evil creature that the means to become one should be so wrong that no matter how noble your reasons for becoming a lich, you would immediately become Evil in the process.

[mourge40k]

Newbonomicon wrote:

Becoming a lich is supposed to be a horrible process, done only by the most twisted and evil spellcasters. The idea of someone becoming a lich through some kind of non-evil means sounds completely ridiculous to me. A lich is such an evil creature that the means to become one should be so wrong that no matter how noble your reasons for becoming a lich, you would immediately become Evil in the process.

While I don't disapprove of your passion on this point, this does fly in the face of what I'm asking for in the thread. Give examples of what your liches had to do and why, what made them go evil eventually, that sort of thing. In short, just back up what you're saying in a polite, respectful manner. I'm sure there's some people who don't like having what they think is a good idea dismissed as completely ridiculous.

[Snowlilly]

Personally, I would just stick with the Immortality discovery and few dozen clones.

As for a good aligned lich, it would be very difficult to justify. A neutral lich with a very compelling reason, maybe, but not a good aligned lich. The level of pragmatism necessary to view lichdom as a solution to even the gravest of perils is too great for the person to remain good aligned.

[Newbonomicon]

mourge40k wrote:

While I don't disapprove of your passion on this point, this does fly in the face of what I'm asking for in the thread. Give examples of what your liches had to do and why, what made them go evil eventually, that sort of thing. In short, just back up what you're saying in a polite, respectful manner. I'm sure there's some people who don't like having what they think is a good idea dismissed as completely ridiculous.

I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational, but I just think the idea of a good-aligned lich is fundamentally flawed. There are other ways to attain immortality, and lichdom is only for the truly vile.

[Orfamay Quest]

mourge40k wrote:

Newbonomicon wrote:

Becoming a lich is supposed to be a horrible process, done only by the most twisted and evil spellcasters. The idea of someone becoming a lich through some kind of non-evil means sounds completely ridiculous to me. A lich is such an evil creature that the means to become one should be so wrong that no matter how noble your reasons for becoming a lich, you would immediately become Evil in the process.

While I don't disapprove of your passion on this point, this does fly in the face of what I'm asking for in the thread.

It's not clear that what you're asking for is particularly reasonable.

I have had a good-aligned lich once, but even that particular monster was initially evil; the backstory is that someone had managed to bring it to Jesus, or St. Cuthbert, or Sarenrae, or whomever you like, to the point that the lich was a repentant sinner and trying to atone for its misspent life; one of the key points was if this atonement were ever accomplished, it would in turn mean the end of the lich's unlife.

But even that much is a violation of RAW; the lich template forces an evil alignment.

[Starbuck_II]

This guy on this forum says:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29570-Complete-Lich-Your-Guid e-to-Immortality-and-Beyond
[SBLOCK]"Once the phylactery is completed, it must be placed on an altar to a death god which you must construct from black onyx (500 gp) in a process that takes 8 days. With all the etchings and enchantments done, requiring you to expend 6 hours and two whole levels of spell slots each day, you are ready to transfer your soul to the phylactery. With an evil outsider watching over (it is impossible for them to interfere, via the power of the ritual), you must sacrifice one of your race who is twice as young as you and another who is twice as old (to a max age of the maximum age for your race), as per the ritual. Their souls are consumed by the black onyx altar where you will slay yourself using your most potent necromancy spell. Your soul will travel through the black onyx into the phylactery where it will be activated, coming your passage into lichdom. The evil outsider is automatically dismissed to wherever they came from and the black onyx altar dissipates from the site. The altar becomes a tribute to the death god you dedicated it to, your name being engraved throughout it as your soul was channeled through it. [/SBLOCK]

Another
[SBLOCK]
the ritual itself (detailed in Encyclopedia Magica vol. 4) entails drinking several deadly poisons at once, along with a liquified heart from a sentient humanoid, no more than six hours dead, etc.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?70054-Ritual-to-become-a-Lich#i xzz3xAnHwZ6z
[/SBLOCK]

[Rhedyn]

"Further complicating the ritual is the fact that no two bodies or souls are exactly alike—a ritual that works for one spellcaster might simply kill another or drive him insane."

Yeah. So I would think a good lich used a good method.

[GM 1990]

Haven't actually done it/had it, but a couple ideas I had, and I think they would be non-religious since their deity could also just provide them eternal life if they wanted, so these types would have to do it by "man alone".

1. Protectors of an object, either a good object, or a group sworn to guard a great evil.

2. Devotee's to a cause. Either Good vs evil, or Neutrals seeking to ensure balance.

Tomes and other research into long life, delaying death, and placing your actual life force into an object, or gathering/gaining power through objects or other means to sustain yourself could be found and used. I would start by researching how liches do it, but only to understand the concepts. So for example, how does a lich's lifeforce not die, weaken, or fade in its phylactery? What and how is it sustained? A non-evil being could find a way to tap into a non-evil power source, maybe the weather, maybe sunlight, focus that power and use it to sustain its lifeforce in an object. Not by becoming undead, but by sustaining your life-force and keeping your body from aging. Something along the lines of how Magic Jar takes your soul into the gem, but your body doesn't become "dead". Its a world of magic and you're the GM, plenty of ways to do it that don't have to pass physics or logic...how does teleport exactly work again?

While an evil lich does it for power, a non-evil lich does it as a sacrifice for a greater cause. Yes, you'll live for ever, and you will destroy a lot of evil....a really, really lot - that sounds great. Except, you'll also watch everyone you know and love grow old and die, and their great, great, great grandchildren as well, even mountains will melt under the rain and wind as you look on. The sun itself will grow in size turning more and more red, until it either consumes the planet or shrinks and fades dying as a brown dwarf, or explodes into a supernova finally granting you the peace of death.

That's why even though the books/knowledge exist, it has been secreted away. Even hidden by those who have taken the path, because they know what you can not. You seek eternal life on the earth in order that you may do so much good, fight so many evils, what ever your purpose is, but you can't not realize it is also a curse. Eternal life for you is the same curse of the "undeath" just in a good form that torments you and tempts you for an eternity to turn evil and abandon your cause. The evil men do makes it even worse as you watch eons of war, death, and decay of civilizations while you devote yourself to your cause and wonder if its worth it.

That's the part I struggle with. you could do it, and as far as the campaign timeline goes you could be a good "lich" (call it something else if you don't want to ruin the trope). But how could you live forever watching the world -literally- die around you and not go insane or eventually seek war so much just so you could die?

[Umbral Reaver]

Do you need a lich specifically? Or will a non-evil intelligent undead of any other kind do?

[GM Rednal]

There are some other ways of doing it, too. For example, there's a template for divine guardian creatures that protect a specific spot, not to mention an 'Eternal' template for creatures you just can't get rid of.