If there is a situation where, based on feat acquisition, the fighter could be overpowered, at what point would it be balanced around fun, utilitarian options?
To reach that each bonus feat selected would have to have significant impact like giving a whole feat chain PLUS one of a selection of utility options.
Example:
At level 1 Joe Average, the fighter selects weapon focus as his fighter bonus feat, knowing that it will increase to further versions of the feat should he ever qualify. As utility addon he selects (from a list that has not been written yet) the soldier training boon. This gives him 1/2 his fighter level on profession (soldier) and 1/4 his fighter level on saves to stay awake on watch.
At level 2 Joe selects Shield focus which, again, will increase during his career. As a boon he adds Leader of men which gives 1/2 his level on diplomacy and 1/4 his level on his leadership score.
Such a system would be necessary to make the fighter balanced and give him fun utilitarian options.
- This was a quick shot without any playtest -
Another thing to consider- since I brought up eldritch guardian earlier, it is because of one of the design considerations it breaks- some feats are 'meh' when used by one person....but their limit is balanced around the idea that only one person in the party would bother to get that set of feats (since parties are usually about diversity, and the feat looks 'meh' in one person, even if it secretly isn't with multiple people; also, the general hate of teamwork feats on this board).
So one fighter might not be OP, but two could be.
An example would be disheartening display- it is an upgrade to dazzling display that lets you continue to amp up fear until they are crying for their mommies in a corner (cowering). With one fighter, that takes two turns, and is just a waste . But with two, you have enemies running like chickens with their heads cut off from the first round (which makes them easy pickings).
Many feats end up like this- just spam it a lot at once with multiple guys, and it breaks game assumptions and ruins encounters. Oh, sure- you can counter that (immunity to fear/mind affecting), and other people can grab those feats. Fighters just have enough feats that they can have a repertoire of this stuff for different situations.
Of course, this argument could also be applied to rogues (who can flank with each other and just get a ton of sneak attack in). Really, given the way parties are designed, this whole line of thought is more for a GM to screw with players, since he can waste time with hyper specialized builds and lack of diversity since he has more resources to play with in an encounter, and those resources are disposable and replaceable.
Another thing to consider- since I brought up eldritch guardian earlier, it is because of one of the design considerations it breaks- some feats are 'meh' when used by one person....but their limit is balanced around the idea that only one person in the party would bother to get that set of feats (since parties are usually about diversity, and the feat looks 'meh' in one person, even if it secretly isn't with multiple people; also, the general hate of teamwork feats on this board).
Teamwork feats are generally hated on all the boards I've been to, and for good reason.
Ain't no such thing as 'free' for class features.
They are given to you in place of OTHER possible class features.
i.e. you are forced to use them.
The difference there is that when used by the classes involved, they save the OTHER person the feat, and/or can be used without requiring a different person to activate them...turning them from teamwork feats into normal feats.
==Aelryinth
Fighters have a way to do it with the Fighter's Tactics AWT, which can go online at level 5.
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Teamwork feats require twice the investment for a single feat's worth of benefit, as well as certain positioning quirks. Unless you get them for free and have a way to share them or use them alone (like a cavalier, hunter, or inquisitor), it's generally worse than other feats.
This in a lot of ways. Despite how good they can be the teamwork feats are marred mechanically and conceptually by the need for both parties to have them in order to benefit from the marginal bonuses they grant.
Off topic but I've always thought of them more as ways to show off your character's cooperative attitude given their power level rather than the glorious fusion dance finish off 2 players working as 1 so with that in mind I've found if you just remove the requirement that the other person have them and instead just granting them to said party member if they meet all other requirements MUCH better for everyone.
I.e. my Cavalier with Shield Wall can just stand next to an ally with a shield and since he's so good at working in a shield line he grants his buff to every other shielder in his shield wall. Turns them from so so feats into interesting marital buff dropper and makes a lot of them shine.
I recently built a Level 20 Weapon Master Fighter specializing in longsword and using Weapon Finesse but no dex-to-damage feats. There's a new Advanced Weapon Training option that doubles your Weapon Training bonus if you're using Dex to hit but not damage, which means she was very accurate as well as damaging. Using Smash from the Air and Combat Reflexes she can deflect up to 11 ranged attacks per round whether they're catapult boulders or ranged touch spells. Her saves were in the mid-20s and she could reroll a will save per day, plus her AC was in the mid-40s. She even matched the unbuffed initiative of the party arcanist (+21). With two of the item mastery feats she could Dimension Door and Dispel Magic four times a day each, she had Dimensional Assault, and a Phase-Locking Weapon. She is basically the coolest Fighter I've ever built, and that's just with 20 levels of feats and advanced Weapon Training. With every feat it'd just be overkill.
Everybody is powerful at level 20.
Now, at level 10, with only 2 AWT options available, how is that character?
And before level 8, and ANY AWT options? And most of the Item Master feats?
i.e. for most of, if not all of, a normal game, she'll be having problems.
===Aelryinth
And before level 8, and ANY AWT options? And most of the Item Master feats?
Dude. We had this conversation. You take AWT feat at level 5.
Also, don't act like Fighters aren't one of the strongest classes in the game from levels 1 to 8. The fact that they can now take Versatile Training at 5 to make them good at social stuff is gravy.
Saying that Fighters are bad early on to me means that you've never played a campaign with a Fighter.
Saying that Fighters are bad early on to me means that you've never played a campaign with a Fighter.
No, it means that he knows the game well.
A fighter is easily fun and competent for the first 9 levels. They still suck next to fighter replacements of equal optimization.
Sure my Fighter was a relative God next to the ranger and the paladin. But the Paladin was a hospitaler with 14 strength that half fell so she could only smite a specific enemy group in our campaign and the ranger was stripping and jiggling her boobles at foes most encounters and was convinced her snake animal companion was useless.
There is a whole next level the game can be played at and the fighter just can't play at that level.