Design Manager
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Fighters are supposedly intended to go with Int 13+ which roughly neutralizes the skill rank difference.
I'd say "citation needed", but instead I'll just note that making a class more MAD shouldn't be a selling point, and the barbarian can have a 13 Int just as easily (moreso, since he gets free stat boosts from Rage).
With so many feats fighters can more easily afford skill boosting feats.
The Fighter gets Combat feats, and those are his class features; for every combat feat a Fighter gets, other classes are getting Rage Powers, class features like Divine Grace or Lay on Hands, an animal companion, etc. Most of these class features are actually individually much stronger than a feat, and a Fighter's main advantage of being able to feat trees faster actually means that if he's spending all of his character granted feats on skill and save boosters then he's actually losing out even more. To reiterate, the Fighter has exactly 0 extra feats to spend on things like skill and save boosters; he has the exact same number of general feats as everyone else.
As soon as the barbarian carries medium armor, he becomes slower than a fighter with proper armor training, even with the +10 base speed. I am sceptical about equivalent AC, given rage's penalty, missing Greater Shield Focus and weaker armor.
Greater Shield Focus is an 8th level feat with a prereq, and having it at all assumes your Fighter is actually using a shield. A barbarian can grab Beast Totem 2 levels earlier for a +2 natural armor bonus to AC that doesn't require him to fill one hand with a shield and which will continue to scale as he levels. By the time a Fighter can afford Greater Shield Focus, the Barbarian can afford mithril armor and continue to maintain his advantage in mobility while meeting or beating the Fighter's AC. Or the Barbarian can not worry about trying to match the Fighter's AC, use his innate higher hit points and DR to absorb the difference, and spend his rage powers on abilities that make him more versatile in combat, or more resistant to energy effects, or even a better climber or swimmer. Even if the Barbarian chooses to go that route, he'll still probably have better AC than the Fighter under at least two conditions, when confronted by traps or flanking enemies, and he's got several natural advantages in non AC defenses like saves.
Don't get me wrong, of course the barbarian has his advantages. But if we play a fighter barbarian-style (CHAAARGE with big weapon), it's not surprising he looks bad. Because he is no barbarian. The same would be true for most other classes.
Except..... it's not. Rangers make badass THFs, Clerics make badass THFs, Inquisitors make badass THFs, and I could go on for a while. The thing that all those classes and the many not mentioned will have in common, is that not only are they capable of being hardcore melee beasts, they'll also all be far more versatile than the Fighter.
Why not accept a different class is different and better suited for a different playstyle? Fighters can be good with switching between styles, going for two weapons or specializing on maneuvers.
Rangers are better switch-hitters, and arguably better TWFs as well. Barbarians have options like Knockback, Strength Surge, Ground Breaker, Knockdown, Overbearing Advance, Smasher, etc. that can allow him to rival the Fighter at performing combat maneuvers for a fraction of the resource cost a Fighter has to sink. It's not that different classes are good at different things, it's that the Fighter has exactly one thing he actually has a real advantage in, and he's often unable to actually execute that thing when someone else isn't holding his hand and/or actively spending resources to help him do his thing.
To the OP's question - There are enough feats in the game, I'd say yeah, a Fighter who had every single feat he qualified for at each level would probably be pretty OP. Those feats are going to include things like Eldritch Heritage, Deific Obedience, Leadership, etc. which can give him a wide array of pseudo-magical options to call upon, which in many instances will more than level the field. The biggest issues will be most apparent at levels 6 and below, where the Fighter is already not terribly below par and the huge numerical advantages having every feat available will impart will make him nearly auto-succeed at the tasks he's capable of performing. At the upper levels of the game, like 15-20, he's going to need to use that Leadership feat for some spellcasters though, otherwise he's essentially the T-rex of classes: ferocious and dangerous if you're running around on the ground, largely not a threat for anyone capable of leaving "the island" ("the island" being whatever convenient combat arena the Fighter is trying to force the fight in).
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Because there are what? A thousand feats? And there are many that written off instantly as 'could be nice, but would never spend a feat on it' or 'very nice, but I would never spend 5 feats on the chain to get that'.
Not to mention all the ones that are written off instantly as 'ha ha, oh wow'.
I think the primary problem with this question is that we are trained by the feat system not to think about its nuances.
Because there are what? A thousand feats? And there are many that written off instantly as 'could be nice, but would never spend a feat on it' or 'very nice, but I would never spend 5 feats on the chain to get that'. There are just too many feats to remember all of them, which means we are unlikely to remember gems that could make this powerful and we certainly couldn't play this character (since you would always forget half of your niche abilities that would do things like invalidate difficult terrain or something)
It would probably have some solution to a vast number of problems. Too bad we can't have a very fruitful discussion of it. This discussion become a simple cliches of 'yes- go fighters!', 'no, fighters are never good', or 'Well, I've been digging through the list of feats AND...'.
That's a very good point. I've noticed I have a more more favorable view of the Fighter than some, and it's possibly because I have most of the feats in the game memorized. (Not on purpose mind you, pesky near perfect memory...)
I think even then the Fighters are probably slightly behind where they should be, but that slightly could be argued invalidated by Eldritch Guardian since it's so good.
I just realized something.
Is this fighter human?
If they are, then they get a Racial Heritage. Notably Racial Herirtage(Kitsune) gets them 8 different SLAs, including Confusion and Dominate.
...gained every feat (within Paizo material) that it qualified for
One problem with this question is that you can't qualify for every feat at once. I can't see someone qualifying for Deific Obedience to Saranrae and Rovagug together, for example. You can't have multiple traits of the same type (combat, magic, faith, whatever). You can't be every race at once. You (probably?) can't be all 9 alignments at once. And so on. So while some builds will be immune to mind-affecting spells, some won't. And so it goes.
Are Mythic feats included?
Then there's the question of whether you can take a feat an infinite number of times, or a saner limit (say 11 or 22 times, which is the maximum a real human F20 could do it). 11xFleet is not OP. Infinite Fleet probably is.
One problem with this question is that you can't qualify for every feat at once. I can't see someone qualifying for Deific Obedience to Saranrae and Rovagug together, for example. You can't have multiple traits of the same type (combat, magic, faith, whatever). You can't be every race at once. You (probably?) can't be all 9 alignments at once. And so on. So while some builds will be immune to mind-affecting spells, some won't. And so it goes.
That's not an issue.... That's the question acknowledging the fact that you can't qualify for every feat...
Are Mythic feats included?
Not unless you qualify for them.
Then there's the question of whether you can take a feat an infinite number of times, or a saner limit (say 11 or 22 times, which is the maximum a real human F20 could do it). 11xFleet is not OP. Infinite Fleet probably is.
No, there is an infinite amount of times a feat can be taken if it lacks a limit. Level 20 isn't even a limit in Pathfinder since it has epic level rules, so you can be a level one thousand human with a hell of a lot of "can be taken multiple times" feats.
Level 20 isn't even a limit in Pathfinder since it has epic level rules, so you can be a level one thousand human with a hell of a lot of "can be taken multiple times" feats.
But the OP asked about level 20...
But the OP asked about level 20...
So what? We know that rule-wise those feats can be taken an infinite amount of times.
Those aren't good builds, CWheezy.
A Fighter has the highest potential AC at 20 point buy. Not that it should be something it should be aiming to. 20+level is more than enough.
In any case, a level 20 Fighter can have:
- Excellent skills
- Excellent defense
- Mind-blowingly good offense
If that makes OP or not depends on a definition of OP.
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Well, I mean, the barbarian one is good for a build mostly maximizing in ac, because barbarians are awesome. The fighter just has high ac because fighters blow super hard
Bro if you can't build a fighter say so, it's not something to be ashamed of.
I mean, you are taking Human racial feats, not buying gaunlets of dueling, avoiding Defender of the Society for a trait, using a shield but avoiding TWF, ignoring WMH goodstuff...
I can give you a masterclass if you wanted.
I play and tutor for PFS building so most builds I make are, yes.
Also note that you said that build was crap yourself.
ONLY fighters can take Defender of the Society.
Anyway, it's not the point of the thread at all to do this. We were talking level 20, not 10. Fighter gets better breakpoints at 12, 11 and higher levels.
Different strokes for different classes. The Fighter is probably better at switch-hitting. For example:
- Hobgoblin (Scarred, Battle-Hardened)
- S16+2ASI+2E D14+2R+2E C14+2R I12 W12 CH7
- Traits: Indomitable Faith, Defender of the Society
- FCB +4 to confirm crits
Feats
LV1. Point-Blank Shot
LV1. Two-Handed Thrower
LV2. Rapid Shot
LV3. Quick Draw
LV4. Iron Will
LV5. Power Attack
LV5. Weapon Training > Thrown
LV6. Advanced Weapon Training > Versatile Training > Thrown > Acrobatics, Perception
LV7. Ricochet Toss
LV8. Deadly Aim
LV9. Improved Critical
LV9. Weapon Training > Advanced Weapon Training > Armed Bravery
LV10. Advanced Weapon Training > Defensive Weapon Training
Gear
+3 Spear
Gloves of Dueling
Sash of the War Champion
+2 Full-plate
Belt of Mighty STR/DEX +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
1k gold left
Stats
HP 10+9d10+30
AC 32 (10+11 armor+4 DEX+1 trait+2 nat+1 deflection+3 shield)
FORT 12 // REF 9 // WILL 13
Initiative +4
Spear melee +19/+14 (1d8+20, 19-20/3x, +4 to confirm crits)
Spear ranged +16/+16/+11 (1d8+16, 19-20/3x, +4 to confirm crits)
Skills
Perception, Acrobatics, Sense Motive, some Climb, Swim, Ride
Do note that this build has a LOT of places to go after level 10.
Is this just fantasy?Wait you took defender of the society as a hobgoblin, is this real life.
Caught in a landslide?
Can you take advanced weapon training as a feat? I do not have the book.
Can you take advanced weapon training as a feat? I do not have the book.
Yes.
So you don't beat him in pounce ac saves, that's sad.
Also you are playing a hobgoblin, lol
1. I beat yours at every save except obviously Fort. Sure, no Superstition, but then again, no Superstition. If your party has a Bard and an Inquisitor, the Fighter is 100% better.
2. Are you seriously saying that a class "has no pounce" when you can clearly see it's meant to switch-hit? Sad, sad, sad.
3. =1 AC but has better AC scaling with level. By the time I have a +4 weapon, that's a +1 to AC. I need to update Amulet and Ring, which you already did. Not to mention your guy is pitiful from afar and needs to take damage to function, while mine can beat face or snipe.
Ok I wasn't clear on that, the only characters I have ever seen in the pathfinder society are for PFS.
Shattered Star AP uses the Pathfinder Society as a launching point for the campaign.
depends on what is OP ?
is over powered = able to do everthing better than any one? than ofc not.
is it = "i can kill anything my CR in 1 round? " than ofc yes.
There are different levels and standards.
Maximum OPness would be having no tactical or strategic benefit for classes other than a fighter with these rules for all levels of play.
Relevant OPness would be every class feeling weak next to this kind of fighter for all levels of play.
Significant OPness would be the GM having trouble properly balancing an encounter for a party where one or more members are a fighter with this rule set for all levels of play.
At least, those are ways someone could define the varying kinds of OP for the sake of conversation.
And I really do think that this fighter should be held to the standard of every level of play. It doesn't matter if they dominate at level one if they are irrelevant at level 20 even with these kinds of advantages. If feats are of any significant value at all, then these kinds of fighters should be grossly overpowered by any metric.
I was about to ask how that fighter can make a ranged full attack. Heh, TIL about ricochet toss.
I was about to ask how that fighter can make a ranged full attack. Heh, TIL about ricochet toss.
It really was a game changer.
Now if there were only a thrown martial weapon with a good range and a not terrible critical range (say, 20 feet and 19-20/2x), that you could 2H with (unlike a dagger), this build would be something else.
But the OP asked about level 20...So what? We know that rule-wise those feats can be taken an infinite amount of times.They have a feat that gives you infinite feats? Interesting.
Pretty sure that, even at 20th level, you have a finite number of feat slots.
I thought the wording of the opening post was vague, my reading of it is that the fighter automatically has every feat that they qualify for. Some feats (like fleet) can be taken many times without any clear limit defined in the rules. It is reasonable to assume that those feats can be purchased many times up to absurd levels. So you could have a first level fighter with an effectively limitless movement speed.
Which feats would be allowed? All Paizo? Everything on d20pfsrd? Everything written for D20?
But I think the most problematic thing about this would be the time every turn might take to use all the stuff he could do. Every feat means lots of stuff you can do yourself because you'd surely have good options for every standard, move, swift action plus some free actions and some things to do with AoOs.
In addition you'd have an AC, a familiar, several cohorts (torchbearer feat, squire feat), followers. Then maybe summons and swarms. The action economy would be hell.
Which feats would be allowed? All Paizo? Everything on d20pfsrd? Everything written for D20?
But I think the most problematic thing about this would be the time every turn might take to use all the stuff he could do. Every feat means lots of stuff you can do yourself because you'd surely have good options for every standard, move, swift action plus some free actions and some things to do with AoOs.
In addition you'd have an AC, a familiar, several cohorts (torchbearer feat, squire feat), followers. Then maybe summons and swarms. The action economy would be hell.
Jeez, I forgot about the cohorts.
He can have a 9th level caster in his pocket as part of leadership. That pretty much settles it, doesn't it?
Which feats would be allowed? All Paizo? Everything on d20pfsrd? Everything written for D20?
But I think the most problematic thing about this would be the time every turn might take to use all the stuff he could do. Every feat means lots of stuff you can do yourself because you'd surely have good options for every standard, move, swift action plus some free actions and some things to do with AoOs.
In addition you'd have an AC, a familiar, several cohorts (torchbearer feat, squire feat), followers. Then maybe summons and swarms. The action economy would be hell.Jeez, I forgot about the cohorts.
He can have a 9th level caster in his pocket as part of leadership. That pretty much settles it, doesn't it?
But if leadership is allowed every other pc can have it, too.
Pretty sure that, even at 20th level, you have a finite number of feat slots.
Again. Irrelevant. This character gets every feat they qualify for automatically, and since they will never stop qualifying for some feats they will get the feats that can be taken an unlimited amount of times and unlimited amount of times.
Which feats would be allowed? All Paizo? Everything on d20pfsrd? Everything written for D20?
The first post says "within Paizo material".
Pretty sure that, even at 20th level, you have a finite number of feat slots.Again. Irrelevant. This character gets every feat they qualify for automatically, and since they will never stop qualifying for some feats they will get the feats that can be taken an unlimited amount of times and unlimited amount of times.
Which feats would be allowed? All Paizo? Everything on d20pfsrd? Everything written for D20?The first post says "within Paizo material".
True facts.
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Yesterday i was chatting with a friend about the martial-caster disparity.
He mentioned that perhaps a build from the Fighter focus on UMD (including wands, scrolls, etc) could actually reduce this gap.
So, is this a thing?, could it work?. I mean, i know it would be pretty gold-intensive, but between finding scrolls and wands, and buying, plus instead of investing the gold in full fighter stuff, investing as "UMD user" ... what are your thoughts guys.
Regards.-
Seems I should read more carefully. I'd missed the part about within Paizo material.
Yesterday i was chatting with a friend about the martial-caster disparity.
He mentioned that perhaps a build from the Fighter focus on UMD (including wands, scrolls, etc) could actually reduce this gap.So, is this a thing?, could it work?. I mean, i know it would be pretty gold-intensive, but between finding scrolls and wands, and buying, plus instead of investing the gold in full fighter stuff, investing as "UMD user" ... what are your thoughts guys.
Regards.-
It's a trap route because you invest limited resources to be able to do something a caster is already capable of but better. Sure you gain options, but those options do nothing to the gap because the caster has the same options.
For this hypothetical fighter build the resources are not that limited as they are for the normal fighter so it might actually do him good.
If the classic fighter invests enough in int and cha to afford a high UMD he decreases his competence in other areas too much. Not even speaking of the gold that he needs more than most classes.
Disclaimer: This is my subjective view on the matter and not everyone has to agree with it.
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Seems I should read more carefully. I'd missed the part about within Paizo material.
Yesterday i was chatting with a friend about the martial-caster disparity.
He mentioned that perhaps a build from the Fighter focus on UMD (including wands, scrolls, etc) could actually reduce this gap.So, is this a thing?, could it work?. I mean, i know it would be pretty gold-intensive, but between finding scrolls and wands, and buying, plus instead of investing the gold in full fighter stuff, investing as "UMD user" ... what are your thoughts guys.
Regards.-
It's a trap route because you invest limited resources to be able to do something a caster is already capable of but better. Sure you gain options, but those options do nothing to the gap because the caster has the same options.
For this hypothetical fighter build the resources are not that limited as they are for the normal fighter so it might actually do him good.
If the classic fighter invests enough in int and cha to afford a high UMD he decreases his competence in other areas too much. Not even speaking of the gold that he needs more than most classes.Disclaimer: This is my subjective view on the matter and not everyone has to agree with it.
Thanky for the input!.
I agree with you, the weird stuff is that he would stop being "the fighter", and focus full on magic, therefore the only thing as fighter he would have, would be the class name. So he can emulate all the spells availables (core at least), skills would be some advantages for the caster, but the gap would not be that much in that case.
What is stoping people for doing this ?.
Regards.-
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What is stoping people for doing this ?.When your character concept is some sort of warrior, a Beowulf or Lancelot or Guan Yu or Miyamoto Musashi or Odysseus or Finn MacCool; being told the best thing you can do is buy a whole bunch of magic items (ones that aren't weapons) and become good at using those would seem rather to fail at emulating the type of character you thought you wanted to make. Then finding that you're still second-rate to an actual primary spell-caster but it's still more useful to the party than playing your concept is Icing.
Thanks for the thought ... so mecanically, nothing. Conceptually, could be.
If you want a fighter that can use magic items, instead of investing into UMD you can just be a half-elf with the arcane training (see below) alternate racial trait.
It costs you your favoured class bonus but that may or may not be better than the UMD hassle.
Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.
Or else just dip into a casting class. And classes that gain spellcasting later in their career still give you wand usage at 1st level.
So a Fighter X/Ranger 1/ Bloodrager 1 can use all ranger and bloodrager wands without UMD. If you play him 'till level 20 the dips hurt. But if you end the game early it's not such a big deal. Especially as both classes do not lose BAB but significantly increase versatility when compared to the fighter.|
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If you want a fighter that can use magic items, instead of investing into UMD you can just be a half-elf with the arcane training (see below) alternate racial trait.
It costs you your favoured class bonus but that may or may not be better than the UMD hassle.Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.Or else just dip into a casting class. And classes that gain spellcasting later in their career still give you wand usage at 1st level.
So a Fighter X/Ranger 1/ Bloodrager 1 can use all ranger and bloodrager wands without UMD. If you play him 'till level 20 the dips hurt. But if you end the game early it's not such a big deal. Especially as both classes do not lose BAB but significantly increase versatility when compared to the fighter.
Thanks, i understand that but was not the idea of the topic.
Is not that i Want to do that, is just a specific thought, and i want some feedback on that.
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Yes... but with a lot of emphasis on what kind of game your playing, the gm you have, what if any special mechanics you've got in play (hero points, prestige points, etc.), and what books and therefore options you have access to. I think the weapon master's handbook helps a lot with the new magic item feats that let you pull magic from the items you wear but again those above points really are what this conversation pivots on.
Like for my money fighters are best in survival games with consistent resource scarcity including rests since all of the gear you really need (weapons, armor, feats, etc.) are singular buys that grant a passive buff constantly and don't have an ammunition counter built into them like spells. This helps a lot when resources are pressed since it means you will be able to perform your role pretty consistently across multiple encounters without much management on your part save a few scrolls you give to your caster to pulls status effects off you.
That being said, the fighter falls off the more mage friendly games get. When you find yourself at a table that only has maybe 1-2 encounters a game day and they are all at apl for you, that doesn't use encumbrance, or only fights the mage on his terms (seriously, steal combat maneuver to snatch the spell components pouch is mean and can shut a wizard down) then your fighter is likely not going to have much fun.
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So, to the OP, yes, a Fighter with infinite feats would be OP. He'd basically be the Flash, plus any number of moderately powered super heroes. He begins play with infinite movement speed, likely quite a few spell-like abilities, including some EXCEEDINGLY powerful ones at low levels, and his baseline saving throws are absolutely fantastic, with free rerolls (and, if he's a dwarf steel soul) and the base 20s and the save-improving feats. He has weapon focus with every weapon, and every possible combat style for which he qualifies, can heal himself infinitely between encounters, and as a swift action each round he chooses, has the perfect style feats to abuse all sorts of craziness... the list goes on. Plus, this guy can, at 5th level, craft basically any magical weapon, armor, or wondrous items he needs (assuming he puts his skill ranks in Craft or Profession). It might take him a little while, but given that he has skill focus and a high base modifier, and can quite literally raid any number of safe tombs and bandits/thieves/etc. instantly, he probably has the money to afford to craft whatever he would like, and there are some quite powerful Wondrous Items.
But the REAL point of this thread shouldn't be to argue about what fighter is better/worse at, nor should it be to showcase the ridiculousness of the premise, but to examine the premise seriously and ask: If there is a situation where, based on feat acquisition, the fighter could be overpowered, at what point would it be balanced around fun, utilitarian options?
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Ok I wasn't clear on that, the only characters I have ever seen in the pathfinder society are for PFS.Shattered Star AP uses the Pathfinder Society as a launching point for the campaign.
I have played a character who was seeking a field commission to the Pathfinder Society and regularly sent long missives to the closest Lodge to Darkmoon Vale. Unfortunately the character was delusional, and self-aggrandizing, so while he did indeed see messed up stuff, it would be hard for a reader to differentiate between his insanity and that caused by the great evil that stirred within the Vale. He never got that commission...
If there is a situation where, based on feat acquisition, the fighter could be overpowered, at what point would it be balanced around fun, utilitarian options?
Omg. Someone not only read the OP, but read into it?
I call BS. I refuse to believe it. There must be some other explanation.