Having a primary attack doesn't make other attacks secondary.
Unless hooves are always normally secondary regardless of the docile quality. However, if that was the case there were be no need for the docile quality to exist.
I think somewhere there is some confusion about whether hoof attacks are regularly secondary or primary attacks.
Unfortunately I don't know of a list that codifies this. Usually the only time you know is that secondary attacks will specify they are secondary.
Edit: Found the list that specifies them as secondary.
This is ultimately a contradiction. Either combat training makes hooves into primary attacks when they are normally secondary (due to docile) or their is no reason for docile to exist.
My personal conclusion is that the attacks become primary attacks when the animal is combat trained and stat blocks tend to agree with this conclusion. Ignore those other older threads.
Having a primary attack doesn't make other attacks secondary.
Unless hooves are always normally secondary regardless of the docile quality. However, if that was the case there were be no need for the docile quality to exist.
I think somewhere there is some confusion about whether hoof attacks are regularly secondary or primary attacks.
Unfortunately I don't know of a list that codifies this. Usually the only time you know is that secondary attacks will specify they are secondary.
Edit: Found the list that specifies them as secondary.
This is ultimately a contradiction. Either combat training makes hooves into primary attacks when they are normally secondary (due to docile) or their is no reason for docile to exist.
My personal conclusion is that the attacks become primary attacks when the animal is combat trained and stat blocks tend to agree with this conclusion. Ignore those other older threads.
Docile is needed because if you're only type of natural attack is secondary it becomes primary for you.
If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
so a horse with only hoofs would have those as primary attacks were it not for docile.
But all horses have a bite, so they will always be secondary.
Either docile does nothing and is not needed because horses have a bite and the hooves would be secondary.
Or combat training upgrades what are normally secondary attacks to primary by removing docile, in a special effect.
So just did some double checking, your Horse, Heavy, Combat Trained (Fiendish) was overfiend_87 translation, and he messed it up. So there's no officially made combat trained horse. But if you look at a light horse it only has hoof attacks too with the docile. So combat training helps ponies and light horses but not heavy horses since they have a bite.
But all horses have a bite, so they will always be secondary.
Either docile does nothing and is not needed because horses have a bite and the hooves would be secondary.
Or combat training upgrades what are normally secondary attacks to primary by removing docile, in a special effect.
Light Riding Horses and ponies don't have a bite. Thus they get a bonus from being combat trained. A heavy horse with a bite gets no benefit.
if you look at a light horse it only has hoof attacks too with the docile. So combat training helps ponies and light horses but not heavy horses since they have a bite.
Why would that matter? A non-trained heavy horse has a primary bite and two secondary hooves. A combat trained heavy horse has primary bite, two primary hooves.
The Horse companion has Docile until level 4, unless it's a Cavalier's mount.
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if you look at a light horse it only has hoof attacks too with the docile. So combat training helps ponies and light horses but not heavy horses since they have a bite.Why would that matter? A non-trained heavy horse has a primary bite and two secondary hooves. A combat trained heavy horse has primary bite, two primary hooves.
The Horse companion has Docile until level 4, unless it's a Cavalier's mount.
This is not correct. Being combat trained removes the docile special quality. Being combat trained does not make hooves primary attacks.
Hooves are secondary attacks. A horse would use its hooves as primary attacks if it were not for the docile quality, because its hooves is the only type of attack that it has.
The heavy horse's hooves are always secondary attacks, because it has two types of attacks, regardless if it is combat trained or not.
It would be kind of odd if a combat trained horse that you bought could make its hooves primary attacks but an animal companion horse could not.
The players handbook was completed before the bestiary rules were finalized. This is one of those things that was a little lost in the translation.
This is not correct. Being combat trained removes the docile special quality. Being combat trained does not make hooves primary attacks.Hooves are secondary attacks. A horse would use its hooves as primary attacks if it were not for the docile quality, because its hooves is the only type of attack that it has.
The heavy horse's hooves are always secondary attacks, because it has two types of attacks, regardless if it is combat trained or not.
1: But the hooves are only secondary attacks because of the Docile quality, so removing that makes them primary attacks.
2: Outside the Docile quality, why would hooves be secondary attacks?
3: Where are you getting this from? Creatures can have multiple primary attack types.
EDIT: Are you referring to the Horse Companion?
This is not correct. Being combat trained removes the docile special quality. Being combat trained does not make hooves primary attacks.Hooves are secondary attacks. A horse would use its hooves as primary attacks if it were not for the docile quality, because its hooves is the only type of attack that it has.
The heavy horse's hooves are always secondary attacks, because it has two types of attacks, regardless if it is combat trained or not.
1: But the hooves are only secondary attacks because of the Docile quality, so removing that makes them primary attacks.
2: Outside the Docile quality, why would hooves be secondary attacks?
3: Where are you getting this from? Creatures can have multiple primary attack types.
EDIT: Are you referring to the Horse Companion?
Universal monster rules.
Hoof, Tentacle, Wing — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B Secondary
Hooves are a secondary natural attack, which would mean either the docile property does nothing, removing the docile property does nothing...or something got a little wonky at some point.
3: Where are you getting this from? Creatures can have multiple primary attack types.Universal monster rules.
Hoof, Tentacle, Wing — 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B Secondary
Hooves are a secondary natural attack, which would mean either the docile property does nothing, removing the docile property does nothing...or something got a little wonky at some point.
Ah, thanks.
"Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks"
translates into
"If specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are not treated as secondary attacks".
Specific trumps general, and a creature with hooves as a primary attack would be totally valid.
(Also, I hope we're all just splitting hairs for the mental exercise here; the intent is obvious). EDIT: Not actually obvious. Can you combat train your horse companion before level 4?
Ah, thanks.
"Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks"
translates into
"If specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are not treated as secondary attacks".
Specific trumps general, and a creature with hooves as a primary attack would be totally valid.
(Also, I hope we're all just splitting hairs for the mental exercise here; the intent is obvious).
I believe that your translation is common sense and RAI, and its how I run it for horses and horse animal companions. Some folks are stricter raw, especially as horse animal companions don't actually have the docile property.
EDIT: Not actually obvious. Can you combat train your horse companion before level 4?
Yes, and you probably should. Near as I can figure that ability really doesn't do anything.
Actually, mathematicaly speaking:
You do not read rules like a math equation. They're not written that way. If someone tells you no purple dragons, that tells you that dragons of other colors are allowed.
There is NO reason for the docile quality to exist if it doesn't do anything. At all.
Actually, mathematicaly speaking:You do not read rules like a math equation. They're not written that way. If someone tells you no purple dragons, that tells you that dragons of other colors are allowed.
There is NO reason for the docile quality to exist if it doesn't do anything. At all.
Just throwing this out here, but it seems like you don't read any posts in the thread that maybe already answered your question.
Light Riding Horses and ponies don't have a bite. Thus they get a bonus from being combat trained. A heavy horse with a bite gets no benefit.But all horses have a bite, so they will always be secondary.
Either docile does nothing and is not needed because horses have a bite and the hooves would be secondary.
Or combat training upgrades what are normally secondary attacks to primary by removing docile, in a special effect.
Yeah, looks like someone already asked your exact question and I already answered it.
also Finkmilkana has it spot on.
The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
So a heavy horse takes the base horse that has docile and adds a bite attack, making the docile do nothing for heavy horses, but it still effects the two that originally have it, the pony and the light riding horse. Because if your only form of natural attacks are secondary they are primary for you. So without docile ponies and light horses would have two primary hoof attacks, but with docile they stay secondary for them.
It does something, it makes the hooves of horses into secondary weapons.
This is nothing. As quoted above hooves are already secondary weapons.
The bonus bite attack a Heavy Horse gets might also do that
No, it would not. This is a 3.5 rule that was not carried over to pathfinder. Attacks are primary or secondary based on the chart, not whether you have other attacks. Looks at most creatures in the bestiary: they have claws and bites both at full attack bonus.
but just a template that makes some quality redundant does not automatically remove said quality.
It is not the template. It is the nature of hoof attacks.
If a sign says "Do not go on the ice if ice is less than 4 inches thick" the implication is that you can go on the ice if its more than 4 inches thick, not never go on the ice. Its not that "do not go on the ice if ice is less than 4 inches thick" and "never go on the ice" are mathematically incompatible, its just completely nonsensical to leave more than four inches thick as unknown rather than to just say "don't go on the ice"
It does something, it makes the hooves of horses into secondary weapons.This is nothing. As quoted above hooves are already secondary weapons.
The bonus bite attack a Heavy Horse gets might also do thatNo, it would not. This is a 3.5 rule that was not carried over to pathfinder. Attacks are primary or secondary based on the chart, not whether you have other attacks. Looks at most creatures in the bestiary: they have claws and bites both at full attack bonus.
but just a template that makes some quality redundant does not automatically remove said quality.It is not the template. It is the nature of hoof attacks.
If a sign says "Do not go on the ice if ice is less than 4 inches thick" the implication is that you can go on the ice if its more than 4 inches thick, not never go on the ice. Its not that "do not go on the ice if ice is less than 4 inches thick" and "never go on the ice" are mathematically incompatible, its just completely nonsensical to leave more than four inches thick as unknown rather than to just say "don't go on the ice"
I'm beginning to think you must have a filter on me or something, as your questions have clearly already been answered and explained why it's that way, Yet you are continuing to ask the question.
First, you seemingly haven't checked the chart you're talking about because if you had you'd notice that a HOOF is a SECONDARY natural attacks.
If all you have are secondary natural attacks, AKA HOOF, then those attacks are primary for you. So a Light Horse or Pony, having just hoof attacks, have their hoofs as primary, even though hoofs are normally secondary.
But adding a Primary natural attack, AKA BITE, to the two hoofs attacks make them back into secondary attack, as you now no longer only have secondary attacks.
So the Pony and the Light Horse both have Docile to keep their hoof attacks as secondary, even though they otherwise would be primary attacks. The Heavy horse is a template onto the light horse, as quoted in my previous post, as such it doesn't call out to remove the Docile quality, even though for heavy horses it's no longer needed as hoofs are secondary always because of the primary bite gained.