The rope attached to the net is being held by the user.
The net is not being held by the user.
I would argue that cutting out of the net would involve no sunder attempt.
"Benefit: When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net's maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell.
An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action). A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.
A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a non-proficient one to do so."
Mechanically, yes, the net and the rope are the same item, but I don't see how the net is being wielded by the original user after it has been thrown (any more than a harpoon is being wielded after being thrown).
Personally, I would allow one to simply attack the net with a slashing weapon. It still takes an action.
*shrug*
|
Look at it this way, if the net thrower is still holding the rope, they can pull on the rope to try to nudge or pull the netted victim. That can be as overt as limiting the move area, or as subtle as forcing them to overcome your CMD to cut the net as you pull the net away from their slashing weapon.
Look at it this way, if the net thrower is still holding the rope, they can pull on the rope to try to nudge or pull the netted victim. That can be as overt as limiting the move area, or as subtle as forcing them to overcome your CMD to cut the net as you pull the net away from their slashing weapon.
I'm not arguing how the rules work, simply saying they should be changed in the case of the net and harpoon... (you aren't really holding the weapon anymore, just a rope that is tied to it).
I mean, how would you adjudicate a dropped weapon with a weapon cord attached to it? Same as the net and harpoon?
If not, why not?
Look at it this way, if the net thrower is still holding the rope, they can pull on the rope to try to nudge or pull the netted victim. That can be as overt as limiting the move area, or as subtle as forcing them to overcome your CMD to cut the net as you pull the net away from their slashing weapon.I'm not arguing how the rules work, simply saying they should be changed in the case of the net and harpoon... (you aren't really holding the weapon anymore, just a rope that is tied to it).
I mean, how would you adjudicate a dropped weapon with a weapon cord attached to it? Same as the net and harpoon?
If not, why not?
I would absolutely adjudicate a weapon cord dropped weapon exactly the same.
It's a net and it's tiny; it's practically a death sentence.
The net is both the netting and the rope. Using a weapon to damage it would be a sunder check (which would not provoke from the net wielder in most situations), or you can make a DC 20 Escape Artist check, or a DC 25 STR check.I agree with Imbicatus. Sunder it.
This thread sets a scary precedent...
If something is attached to you via a rope, sunder rules apply.
Tie a rope to your castle, your cart... your ship.
At what point do the Sunder rules NOT get used?
:D
The net is both the netting and the rope. Using a weapon to damage it would be a sunder check (which would not provoke from the net wielder in most situations), or you can make a DC 20 Escape Artist check, or a DC 25 STR check.I agree with Imbicatus. Sunder it.This thread sets a scary precedent...
If something is attached to you via a rope, sunder rules apply.
Tie a rope to your castle, your cart... your ship.
At what point do the Sunder rules NOT get used?
:D
No it doesn't. If a part of a piece of equipment is in your possession the sunder rules apply. To say otherwise is to count the blade of a sword as an unattended object because only the hilt is being held.
A rope is part of a net. A rope is not part of a castle or cart. It is part of a ship, but a ship is not a piece of equipment. It's a vehicle. The slippery slope is all in your head.
If you are strong enough to carry the cart, do you count it as attended gear and apply sunder rules? If not, why not?
We have already established that you don't need to be carrying the harpoon or net to apply sunder rules (instead of just attacking it)... all you have to do is hold a rope, apparently.
Just because you don't see the slippery slope, doesn't mean it isn't there...
Tower shield, attached to owner by 200ft rope. Attended object subject to sunder rules, or unattended object that can be attacked?
Same question, 10ft rope.
Same question, but with Harpoon and 200ft rope.
1000ft rope.
A rope attached to a net allows you to exert some semblance of control over the net.
A 200' rope attached to a tower shield does not.
It's a net and it's tiny; it's practically a death sentence.Except a tiny creature cannot be held by a medium net. Nets only work on creatures within one size category.
Erm...tiny net not tiny creature.
Also, let me know if you see a Radio Shack.
The net states how the entangled creature can escape. None of those are sunder attempts. The only way I see sunder coming into play would be a non entangled person wanting to sunder the net to free the entangled captive......
....though the picture of a great sword trying to cut a net apart without harming the entangled one makes me smile...
The net states options, not restrictions.
It wouldn't, for example, prevent someone from teleporting or using dimension door.
My opinion of nets (and harpoons) is that once they are thrown, they are no longer in your possession, and thus can be attacked (rather than sundered).
I don't see how a rope would change that, whether it be 10ft for a net, 50ft for a harpoon or some other length...
But again, opinion. The rules don't actually state that escaping the net is ONLY possible with the listed options, just that they ARE options...
Actually magic escapes are covered by the net entry itself (concentration check....). I believe the topic of the thread is mundane rules specific methods of escaping from nets...."breaking" was the term used.The net states how the entangled creature can escape. None of those are sunder attempts. The only way I see sunder coming into play would be a non entangled person wanting to sunder the net to free the entangled captive......
....though the picture of a great sword trying to cut a net apart without harming the entangled one makes me smile...
The net states options, not restrictions.
It wouldn't, for example, prevent someone from teleporting or using dimension door.
"An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action)."
If people want to argue that these methods are the only ones that allow escape, then spells don't work. The quoted sentence comes AFTER the one talking about concentration checks.
Listing the hitpoints of the net isn't required if the only way of escaping is Escape Artist or Strength checks, as neither inflicts damage.
Why would the hitpoints be listed if the ONLY way to escape is what is listed?
If sunder is allowed (despite not being listed), then why can't you simply attack the item that is there.
My whole point is that it doesn't (shouldn't) use sunder rules because you aren't holding the net anymore. You threw it at someone. It's on them. You are holding a ROPE attached to the net, not the net itself.
Same thing for the harpoon.
Agreed sunder rules are not a good way to get out of a net.
Now if someone wanted to sunder the rope from the net, or the hand holding it I would be fine with sunder rules application...
Right!
I don't care how skilled a warrior you are... the level of control you can exert over a sword in hand is NOT the same as what you can do to a net you control using a rope.
You can either pull on a rope, or... uh... not pull. You certainly can't make the NET move left, right, up, down etc...
Sword, you have a huge range of motion. Sunder obviously applies here.
Sundering someones hand, ouch...
I'm of the interpretation that you need to sunder it: and that sunder is allowable even if you only threaten the net that you are entangled by, and not the holder.
Since the holder of the rope is probably jostling you while they entangle you, this is fair from a fluff point of view, and prevents the net from becoming irrelevant from a rules point of view.
Also, anything that makes sunder CMB/CMD more relevant is probably a good thing.
The rope is part of the weapon that is the net: attaching ropes manually to something else doesn't achieve this, per-se, as they get moved outside the bounds of a standard weapon, and more into custom contraption territory.
If the holder of the rope drops it however, it's no longer attended: so just simply cut it.
Agreed sunder rules are not a good way to get out of a net.
Now if someone wanted to sunder the rope from the net, or the hand holding it I would be fine with sunder rules application...
Right!
I don't care how skilled a warrior you are... the level of control you can exert over a sword in hand is NOT the same as what you can do to a net you control using a rope.
You can either pull on a rope, or... uh... not pull. You certainly can't make the NET move left, right, up, down etc...
Sword, you have a huge range of motion. Sunder obviously applies here.
Sundering someones hand, ouch...
The level of control you can excert over a Whip is quite different to that over a Rapier which is different to that over a Flail which is different to that over a Net. So how do you define which can and can't be sundered?
You can pull on a rope, tug it sideways, ease of tension, crack the rope, give suddebn tigs, and because the person entangled the net is providing dymnamic resistance (unless they are completely still) you can figure that into the movement. The Nets also have a draw string function so that losening and tightening the net affects how it grips the target it's entangling.
Citation on the extra drawstring function you mentioned?
The point I'm trying to make is that the net (and harpoon) both talk about having a rope.
This is talked about as if a separate component, NOT part of the weapon.
Instead of saying that you can control the net from ten feet away, the entry for net says this:
"If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows."
So, as a player, I would argue that I could target the thing affecting my ability to move: the "trailing rope".
If the "trailing rope" is one item, the net is another.
You control what you hold, not something that you have a rope tied to.
It's already been shown that tying a rope to a shield doesn't allow you to protect your shield from a distance, so why should the net (or harpoon) be any different?
The distinction between the net and the trailing rope is right there in the weapon description. It's listed as two parts.
People are arguing that nets have to be sundered, I would argue that they only use those rules while being held.
After being thrown at a target, a weapon isn't in your hand anymore. It isn't a reach melee weapon, it's a thrown weapon.
The fact that a rope is attached to it is basically irrelevant.
Unless you want to argue that tying a rope to anything allows you to protect it from a distance somehow.
Whether it's a ten foot rope (in the case of the net) or a fifty foot rope (in the case of the harpoon) shouldn't matter, should it?
I realize that I'm the minority on this one, but I do feel very strongly about it... I do honestly believe that once thrown, a weapon is no longer being wielded... and thus can be attacked, rather than sundered.
Well, since you can use the net to trip/pull and so on, with the requisite feats: I'd say its clear that the trailing rope is part of the rope-net: its not even explained whether the 'trailing rope' is anything other than the completely netty end of the entirely uniform net you are holding, not some thin attached single rope.
However, the ambiguity of the language is confusing.
The net rules are in dire need of clarification, and this should also be clarified.
I made a thread a couple of months ago asking for all aspects of the net, snag net, net adept feats and general style questions to be FAQed / Errata'ed:
The link is here, if you'd like to hit the FAQ button :P
Request for FAQ / Errata regarding Net Feats
I also provide links to many other threads on the topic.
Well, since you can use the net to trip/pull and so on, with the requisite feats: I'd say its clear that the trailing rope is part of the rope-net: its not even explained whether the 'trailing rope' is anything other than the completely netty end of the entirely uniform net you are holding, not some thin attached single rope.
However, the ambiguity of the language is confusing.
The net rules are in dire need of clarification, and this should also be clarified.
I made a thread a couple of months ago asking for all aspects of the net, snag net, net adept feats and general style questions to be FAQed / Errata'ed:
The link is here, if you'd like to hit the FAQ button :P
Request for FAQ / Errata regarding Net Feats
I also provide links to many other threads on the topic.
Nice! I clicked on FAQ on that one. I wonder if anybody has given any thought to the harpoon... surely something 50ft away from you can be attacked rather than sundered... :D
Its actually a relevant topic for any ranged grapple attack as well (instead of the odd ranged entangle thing that nets do), so its also pertinent for things like giant frogs, canopy creepers, cave fishers and so on.
Then there's the "If I sunder without improved sunder do I provoke the object that I'm entangled within" question. May not be relevant to ranged attacks, but the giant frog is a reach weapon, and nets can be, with feats.
To me it's not a sunder. If a CMB/CMD roll was called for then I would agree that a sunder would be required, but the rope is only limiting where you can move to without an opposed strength check. If the rope was let go then the victim would still be entangled but would be able to move away from the former wielder.
If you net an opponent if you retain hold of the rope and the target has either failed the opposed strength check when he tried to move away or has not tried to move away then surely attempting to break the net would involve a Sunder Attack rather than attacking an inanimate object, as the Net is still been wielded by the caster?
I'd argue it does. Please see here for (much) more detail.