| Brakiri |
Dear all,
for starters, let me just say: Happy new year! ;)
I like to ask you for advice concerning my Unchained Rogue / Ninja build.
We are playing the Shackled City Campaign with Pathfinder rules with 25 point buy.
My character is a self created race, named Pardushar. In essence a humanoid race derived from black panthers which are native to the underdark (i'm an orphan found at the city gates and raised in the orphanage of Couldron).
They have darkvision, +8 to climb checks, +4 Dex +2 Int, 40ft speed and Light Sensitivity.
I know that rogues live out their viability really fast at higher levels. I noticed that my usefulness in combat is already fading and my AC can't keep up with the enemies attack bonuses/spells.
I just wanted to ask if you have any ideas (Feats, classes, equipment etc.) how to stay afloat as long as possible. Please see my stats below.
All tipps are appreciated. Please take into account, that PC wealth will not follow the expected progression and will be significantly lower than expected (As you can see from my equipment list, the char is already 5500GP below expected Char wealth).
Thank you!
UnRogue4/Ninja2
STR 10
DEX 22
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 14
Saves: 4/12/3
AC 23 / 27 with Shield on
Traits:
River Rat (+1 Dagger damage)
Reactionary (Ini +2)
Rogue/Ninja Talents:
Minor Magic (Mage Hand)
Vanishing Trick
Major Magic (Shield)
Feats:
TWF
WF (Dagger)
Dodge
Abilities:
Ki Pool (3)
Knife Master (my DM allowed that i take the ability to use d8 for daggers and d4 for aother weapons for precision damage rolls)
Weapon Finesse (Granted by Unrogue class)
Uncanny Dodge
Danger Sense +1
Debilitating Injury
Evasion
Skills above 10:
Acrobatics 17
Bluff 14
Diplomacy 13
Disable Device 17
Disguise 11
Perception 12
Stealth 17
Equipment:
Mithril Chain Shirt +1 (AC 5)
Circlet of Persuasion (+3 on CHA skills)
2 Daggers (MW)
2 Daggers (silver)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of Prot +1
Silent boots (Acr +1, Stealth +2)
| Casual Viking |
Given that your class combo is already a houserule, why not convince your GM to let you play Unchained Ninja?
| Chess Pwn |
So your DM is okay with your illegal class setup right?
Because officially you can't be a rogue and a ninja.
| Scott Wilhelm |
I have 2 builds I've been working on that use levels in Ninja.
1 calls for a level in Gunslinger, 3 levels in Monk and the rest in Ninja. The 3 levels in Monk are for Drunken Master, which will be used to Fuel constant use of the Ninja Vanishing Trick. Guns make Ranged Touch Attacks, and while Invisible, targets don't get their Dex Mods. So this character will be making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC and locking in the Sneak Attack damage nearly every time. I call him the Drunken Ninja with a Gun!
I also have been developing an idea for a Tengu and gathering up more natural attacks. Say a level in White Haired Witch, a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, maybe a Tentacle Cloak, and maybe some Brawler Unarmed Strikes, too. She would lock in the Sneak Attack Damage using Dirty Trick Feats. Then she would take Hamatula Strike, Snake Style, and Feral Combat Training to score a Grapple with every one of those hits, doing Armor Spike Damage and more Sneak Attack Damage. Maybe also Broken Wing Gambit, Combat Reflexes, and Snake Fang to score lots of Attacks of Opportunity, all multiplied by all those Natural Attacks: Hair, Gore, Bite, 2 Claws, and 2 Unarmed Strikes, and maybe 5 Attacks of Opportunity/round + 12 Armor Spike attacks, all with Sneak Attack Damage on her poor, Blinded opponents.
Another thought I had is that multiclassing Ninja and 1 other SA class could help with early access to Arcane Trickster.
| Claxon |
As others mentioned, you can't legally be a ninja rogue. Ninja is basically a more advanced archetype of the rogue and therefore not available for multiclassing.
| Brakiri |
Hi,
i know that this combination is "illegal" but the DM saw no problem in this setup so she allowed it.
What she won't allow are 3pp sources.
@Scott Wilhelm
Intersting ideas but the char is set so i can't change it now. I was more interested how i can develop her so that she can keep up a little longer than usual.
In that sense, tipps for items, feats, ninja tricks etc. for the future would be more helpful.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Hi,
i know that this combination is "illegal" but the DM saw no problem in this setup so she allowed it.
What she won't allow are 3pp sources.@Scott Wilhelm
Interesting ideas but the char is set so i can't change it now. I was more interested how i can develop her so that she can keep up a little longer than usual.
In that sense, tipps for items, feats, ninja tricks etc. for the future would be more helpful.
So, I guess you could read my last post to include for tips:
1. Dirty Trick feats to lock in your Sneak Attack for a Full Attack Action.
2. Get a Gun to make your Ranged Attacks Ranged Touch Attacks.
A. Use the Ninja Vanishing Trick to make those Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC.
B. A 3 level dip in Monk will let you get Drunken Ki and an abundance of Ki you can Vanish--or do whatever--with.
C. I'll add here that Marker Dye Arrows make Ranged Touch Attacks. They don't do any damage themselves. Elves usually just put packets of paint inside them, but there's no reason why you couldn't put in some kind of Contact Poison. That seems very ninja.
3. Three levels in Wizard or something will let you take levels in Arcane Trickster, letting you develop as a Wizard and Rogue at the same time.
A. I'll add here that if you take even 1 level in Arcanist, you can get a tactical teleport ability called Dimensional Hop: no disorientation, only a 10' range to start, but that is often enough to achieve Flanking or gain Cover so you can then use Stealth.
4. 1 Level in Snakebite Striker Brawler will give you an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack Damage straightaway.
A. I'll add here that so will 1 level in Vivisectionist Alchemist.
B. And I'll add there is a Feat called Accomplished Sneak Attacker or something.
I have more tips if you want.
| Scott Wilhelm |
I was looking at my advice and your character side-by-side, and I was thinking about what I would do with your character if it were mine.
My first thought is that I would have made my main weapon Wakisashi instead of Dagger. You can't throw a Wakisashi like you can your Daggers, but it has a higher base damage, a broader Threat Range, and the Deadly Quality, while not my thing, makes sense in the hands of a Ninja. It won't change your Ninja's flavor any more than to just make him more Ninja-y, and your GM probably won't mind if you beg him to just let you transfer all your Dagger Feats and abilities to Wakisashi.
The next thing I would do is get a bow. I'd use a variety of arrows in addition to the Marker Dye Arrows full of poison I mentioned before. There are a huge number of tricksy arrow choices: long range, short range, arrows that to bludgeoning damage, arrows that explode with shrapnel, a Ninja's smorgasbord. Take a long look at your choices. Also, I would acquire some Weapon Blanch of different kinds and treat some arrows, and if not arrows, then shuriken so you will have a variety of ways to bypass DR. Maybe get a Sling, too.
Next level I'd take a level in Arcanist. With the Dimensional Slide ability, even a level 1 Arcanist can Teleport 10 feet counting as 5 feet of movement that does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. This will improve your ability to achieve Flanking and gain your Sneak Attack more often. In addition, I noticed you have 2 Rogue Talents devoted to learning 2 Spells. With only 1 level in Arcanist, all those Spells are on your Spell List. Use this opportunity of gaining a level to Retrain your Major and Minor magic to get better Rogue Talents or Ninja Tricks. You can use Sorcerer/Wizard Wands without use of the Use Magical Device Skill, and that will mean that you will be the one to get those wands instead of the party Wizard. Wands work the same way regardless of Caster Level, so the Wizard in your party should let you have the wands so he can spend his time casting the really powerful attack spells. While you are at it, you also can take over the chore of casting utility spells like Identify. In addition, your Cantrps like Jolt and Acid Splash count as Ranged Touch Attacks, and when you combine them with Ninja Vanishing Trick, you make them vs Flatfooted AC, locking in your Sneak Attack Damage into the bargain!
Where to go next? With 3 levels in Monk, Drunken Master, you will suddenly have all the Ki you need to Ninja-Vanish all you want. You're saving throws will go up fast. You will get 2 bonus Feats. And you will get a 1d6 Unarmed Strike that you can use for a Blunt Melee Weapon
What are some Feats to build toward?
Deadly Aim: Power Attack for Ranged Weapons. With your BAB at +4, you will take a -2 to attack and +4 damage with all Ranged Attacks, but since you are making ranged touch attacks vs Flatfooted AC, you can easily eat that -2 penalty and layer on the damage.
Improved Grapple, then Hamatula Strike, and then get Armor Spikes for your Chain Shirt, because every hit with your 2 Wakisashis can then be turned into a Grapple, and then you get Armor Spike Damage. And if you used your Dimensional Slide to get Flanking, it will be both your blades and your armor spikes get the Sneak Attack Damage.
There are those Dirty Trick Feats you can use to make your opponents go Blind. That would require Dirty Fighting Improved Dirty Trick, and Quick Dirty Trick, and maybe Greater Dirty Trick later.
You could take Broken Wing Gambit and Combat Reflexes, gaining an Attack of Opportunity Trigger. I see you took Weapon Focus Dagger and Dodge. If you added Close Quarters Thrower, then you throw weapons without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Then if you took the False Opening Feat, you could allow your opponents to get attacks of opportunity when you throw a weapon, but then you get a +4 to AC, an they lose their AC bonus until the next round, locking in your Sneak Attack Damage. If you also had Broken Wing Gambit, you then get an Attack of Opportunity yourself, again, with Sneak Attack Damage.
So, what would this look like level-for-level?
Level 7: Ninja2, Rogue3, Monk1, Arcanist1: Unarmed Damage 1d6, Dimensional Slide, Agile Maneuvers, Broken Wing Gambit, Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighter, Improved Dirty Trick
Here, I'm having you retrain 1 of your Rogue levels for 1 level in Monk. Your BAB drops to +3, but you gain the BWG AoO trigger with Combat Reflexes to capitalize on it. You also get to use Cantrips combined with Ninja Vanishing Trick to make Ranged Touch Attack vs Flatfooted, Touch AC. I'm also having you Retrain Minor Magic for Combat Trick Rogue Talent Agile Maneuvers. And you also now have Dimensional Slide for better Flanking. I'm having you Retrain Dodge for Dirty Fighter and Weapon Focus for Improved Dirty Trick, so you can Blind your opponents with an extra Flanking bonus, then gut them the next round.
8N2R3M2A1: Improved Grapple, BAB +4
9N2R3M3A1: Drunken Ki, Quick Dirty Trick, BAB+5
Sadly, Evasion doesn't stack with Evasion, but now you have all the Ki you need to keep Vanishing; just don't quit drinking. Grappling can be tactically very useful all on it's own.
10N3R3M3A1: Sneak Attack +1d6, BAB+6
11N4R3M3A1: BAB+7, Ninja Trick: Combat Trick: Hamatula Strike, Greater Dirty Trick
Normally, you can't take Combat Trick twice as either a Ninja or a Rogue, but since your GM is letting you be both a Ninja and a Rogue, maybe he will also let you take Combat Trick twice: 1 each as a Ninja and Rogue. If he doesn't, then take level 1 Fighter instead of level 4 Ninja. You could achieve the same effect with 1 level in Brawler and use Martial Flexibility, but then you can't be a Snakebite Striker, squandering the opportunity to get a 1d6 Sneak Attack Bonus later on.
Now this is a powerful character, on par or outstripping any other melee character in your party with unlimited Vanishing, lots of Flanking, and plenty of Dirty Tricks to lock in 4d6 Sneak Attack Damage, and 7 Attacks of Opportunity/Round with a sensitive trigger for setting them off. Add on top of that a Grappling conversion with Sneak Attack Damage on top of EVERY ONE of those 10 attacks, and you are a one badass, superninja doing 80d6/round!
Or you could keep taking levels in Arcanist. Every level you take in Arcanist gives you another 10' range to Dimensional Slide, more spells, and there are a lot of other Arcane Exploits that are pretty good, like Shadow Veil, Face Thief, and Arcane Weapon. After 4 levels in Arcanist, you can start taking levels in Arcane Trickster, developing as a Rogue and a caster at the same time.
| Brakiri |
Hi Scott,
thank you for the work you put into this! :)
I really appreciate it.
Concerning the grapple-angle: I only do d8s for SA with my daggers and spikes would only do d4s. So that wouldn't be much damage. Can i disengage from the grapple without reprecussions?
Maybe the Drunken KI was revised because i don't think this feature is very powerful. First, i can only have one temporary Ki point, in addition drinking is a Standard Action in which i could do other things like attack normally etc. So i could drink before the fight for one temp ki point but for every ki point after that i would need to use a standard action.
Broken Wing Gambit is a teamwork feat and due to the fact that my AC cannot keep up with the enemies attack bonuses that would be a dangerous gamble.
The Arcanist Level and the Dirty Trick Feat line however look promising.
| Scott Wilhelm |
Concerning the grapple-angle: I only do d8s for SA with my daggers and spikes would only do d4s.
So that wouldn't be much damage.
Ooh, that hurts. Still, it adds on to your damage.
Can i disengage from the grapple without reprecussions?
As long as you are the one in control of the Grapple, letting go is a Free Action.
Maybe the Drunken KI was revised because i don't think this feature is very powerful. First, i can only have one temporary Ki point,
My idea is that you would keep using it.
in addition drinking is a Standard Action in which i could do other things like attack normally etc.
That's a good point. You could work in the Potion Glutton Feat. Then drinking would be a Swift Action.
So i could drink before the fight for one temp ki point but for every ki point after that i would need to use a standard action.
Well, you could use it to turn invisible, then play a Quick, Dirty Trick on your opponent to make him Blind, getting an extra attack into the bargain. Using it as a Sniper, you only get 1 attack/round. You should then get yourself a Wand of Scorching Ray, both those rays will be targeted against Flatfooted, Touch AC, since they are simultaneous, and since they both require Attack Rolls, both gain Sneak Attack Damage. Too bad it's only d4s.
Broken Wing Gambit is a teamwork feat and due to the fact that my AC cannot keep up with the enemies attack bonuses that would be a dangerous gamble.
Yes, it is a Teamwork Feat, so it is something you could select as a dip in Cavalier or Inquisitor or something.
It's a very inexpensive Attack of Opportunity Trigger, so it makes sense there would be a downside. Giving your opponents +2 to Attack and Damage is it for BWG. You do get the AoO whether they hit or miss. Hopefully their attack will be offset by your having Blinded them with your Dirty Tricks.
my AC cannot keep up with the enemies attack bonuses
Huh, yeah, now that you mention it, your AC is what 10 +6 for Dex, +5 for Armor, and +1 for Ring of Protection?, so 22? It could be better.
When you have your opponents Blinded, you will enjoy a 50% Miss Chance due to Total Concealment.
You might consider Combat Expertise instead of Dirty Fighting. That can be used to raise your AC directly.
How available are magic items in your campaign?
As I said, with your level in Arcanist, you can use Wizard Wands. A Wand of Shield is an inexpensive magic item.
An Amulet of Natural Armor will stack with your other AC bonuses. 2000GP for +1.
And extra "+" on your Armor would be 3000gp.
A +2 Belt of Dexterity is 4000GP.