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Mind you, if you want "Dracula", you should probably do what I did and write your own template. Most of the "Dracula" story is pretty poorly done with the Pathfinder vampire template.
I wrote my own template because I liked the fluff of the vampire but I didn't want every vampire to be so strong. I wanted a vampire template that scaled better with level and allowed for weaker vampires who could eventually turn into old and really scary vampires in time, and I didn't think that the vampire spawn in Pathfinder did that well at all.
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The implications can get a bit weird, though. According to the druidic faith, being undead is more natural than metal armor? ("Zombies? Well, sure, they're still walking around with all the rotting flesh and everything, but it's not like they're blacksmiths.")Siabrae are neither clerics nor non-evil so I'm not sure what your point is.Stuff like "but neutral nature clerics can memorize animate dead" is not really a productive line of argument. I think they've said that in a perfect world they'd give a separate spell list to every kind of cleric, it's just outside the scope of what they can fit in the books.Siabrae would like to have a word with you, being literally undead druids who still have full druid powers.
And are lead by the single most powerful druid in Golarion at the moment.
There's also the obvious implication that it has nothing to do with good/evil but entirely to do with clerics. Good oracles can know and cast any spell without issues at all. In fact, the Bones oracle has a supernatural ability to call undead servants without it being an evil ability.
Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, Wizards, Magi, and pretty much everyone else can cast animate dead even if they're Good. Clerics are not the standard they are the exception.
Bones
Class Skills: An oracle with a bones mystery adds Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth to her list of class skills.
Bonus Spells: cause fear (2nd), false life (4th), animate dead (6th), fear (8th), slay living (10th), circle of death (12th), control undead (14th), horrid wilting (16th), wail of the banshee (18th).
Revelations: An oracle with the bones mystery can choose from any of the following revelations.
Armor of Bones (Su): You can conjure armor made of bones that grants you a +4 armor bonus. At 7th level, and every four levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +2. At 13th level, this armor grants you DR 5/bludgeoning. You can use this armor for 1 hour per day per oracle level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-hour increments.
Bleeding Wounds (Su): Whenever a creature takes damage from one of your spells or effects that causes negative energy damage (such as inflict light wounds or the death's touch revelation), it begins to bleed, taking 1 point of damage each round. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, this damage increases by 1. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or any effect that heals damage.
Death's Touch (Su): You can cause terrible wounds to appear on a creature with a melee touch attack. This attack deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage +1 point for every two oracle levels you possess. If used against an undead creature, it heals damage and grants a +2 channel resistance for 1 minute. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Near Death (Su): You gain a +2 insight bonus on saves against diseases, mind-affecting effects, and poisons. At 7th level, this bonus also applies on saves against death effects, sleep effects, and stunning. At 11th level, the bonus increases to +4.
Raise the Dead (Su): As a standard action, you can summon a single skeleton or zombie to serve you. The undead creature has a number of Hit Dice equal to your oracle level. It remains for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. At 7th level, you can summon a bloody skeleton or fast zombie. At 15th level, you can summon an advanced skeleton or zombie. You can use this ability once per day plus one additional time per day at 10th level.
(Not an evil ability.)Resist Life (Su): You are treated as an undead creature when you are targeted by positive or negative energy. You are not subject to Turn Undead or Command Undead (or any other effect that specifically targets undead), unless you are actually an undead creature. At 7th level, you receive channel resistance +2. This bonus increases by +2 at 11th and 15th level.
Soul Siphon (Su): As a ranged touch attack, you can unleash a ray that causes a target to gain one negative level. The ray has a range of 30 feet. This negative level lasts for a number of minutes equal to your Charisma modifier. Whenever this ability gives a target a negative level, you heal a number of hit points equal to your oracle level. You can use this ability once per day, plus one additional time at 11th level and every four levels thereafter. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Spirit Walk (Su): As a standard action, you can become incorporeal and invisible. While in this form, you can move in any direction and through any object (except for those made of force). You can take no action other than to move while in this form. You remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level, but you can end this effect prematurely with a standard action. You can use this ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 15th level. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
Undead Servitude (Su): You gain Command Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel negative energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, but only to use Command Undead. You can take other feats to add to this ability, such as Improved Channeling, but not feats that alter this ability, such as Alignment Channel.
(The oracle can do this in addition to being good and channeling positive energy if that's the route they took.)
Voice of the Grave (Su): You can speak with dead, as per the spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to your oracle level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter, the dead creature takes a cumulative –2 penalty on its Will save to resist this effect.
Final Revelation: Upon reaching 20th level, you become a master of death. Once per round, you can cast bleed or stabilize as a free action. If you are brought to below 0 hit points, you automatically stabilize. You can cast animate dead at will without paying a material component cost (although you are still subject to the usual Hit Die control limit). Once per day, you can cast power word kill, but the spell can target a creature with 150 hit points or less.
Bolded for emphasis. Italicized notes mine.
I view "Dracula" as the Mythic Vampire template
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I view "Dracula" as the Mythic Vampire template
Which is kind of a joke because Dracula wasn't that strong. Dracula would actually be a fairly minor vampire in Pathfinder, unless he was rewritten to be waaaaay more uber than he was in the original story.
Which wouldn't be anything new of course. It's actually super common to find super-powered Draculas in stuff like anime and video games.
The implications can get a bit weird, though. According to the druidic faith, being undead is more natural than metal armor? ("Zombies? Well, sure, they're still walking around with all the rotting flesh and everything, but it's not like they're blacksmiths.")Siabrae are neither clerics nor non-evil so I'm not sure what your point is.Stuff like "but neutral nature clerics can memorize animate dead" is not really a productive line of argument. I think they've said that in a perfect world they'd give a separate spell list to every kind of cleric, it's just outside the scope of what they can fit in the books.Siabrae would like to have a word with you, being literally undead druids who still have full druid powers.
And are lead by the single most powerful druid in Golarion at the moment.There's also the obvious implication that it has nothing to do with good/evil but entirely to do with clerics. Good oracles can know and cast any spell without issues at all. In fact, the Bones oracle has a supernatural ability to call undead servants without it being an evil ability.
Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, Wizards, Magi, and pretty much everyone else can cast animate dead even if they're Good. Clerics are not the standard they are the exception.
*snip*
Maybe it's one of those situations where divine power is pretty accessible, but the approval of any one individual god is, like, unknowable and mysterious?
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I view "Dracula" as the Mythic Vampire templateWhich is kind of a joke because Dracula wasn't that strong. Dracula would actually be a fairly minor vampire in Pathfinder, unless he was rewritten to be waaaaay more uber than he was in the original story.
Which wouldn't be anything new of course. It's actually super common to find super-powered Draculas in stuff like anime and video games.
It's true, sadly. Hellsing's Alucard is a very flattering reimagining of the bloated flea-man that was the original Dracula. Modern media had certainly built in me an unrealistic expectation of the count's coolness. I remember the first time I read the book. The great and terrible vampire getting stabbed a couple times with regular knives and going down like a scrub. A lot of bizarrely sexual Victorian era subtext too. I guess I get why it was considered a classic, but I also understand why we changed basically everything as time marched on.
The Texan cowboy guy was pretty boss though, sad he didn't make it.
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Maybe it's one of those situations where divine power is pretty accessible, but the approval of any one individual god is, like, unknowable and mysterious?The implications can get a bit weird, though. According to the druidic faith, being undead is more natural than metal armor? ("Zombies? Well, sure, they're still walking around with all the rotting flesh and everything, but it's not like they're blacksmiths.")Siabrae are neither clerics nor non-evil so I'm not sure what your point is.Stuff like "but neutral nature clerics can memorize animate dead" is not really a productive line of argument. I think they've said that in a perfect world they'd give a separate spell list to every kind of cleric, it's just outside the scope of what they can fit in the books.Siabrae would like to have a word with you, being literally undead druids who still have full druid powers.
And are lead by the single most powerful druid in Golarion at the moment.There's also the obvious implication that it has nothing to do with good/evil but entirely to do with clerics. Good oracles can know and cast any spell without issues at all. In fact, the Bones oracle has a supernatural ability to call undead servants without it being an evil ability.
Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, Wizards, Magi, and pretty much everyone else can cast animate dead even if they're Good. Clerics are not the standard they are the exception.
*snip*
Yeah it's kinda funny. It only matters for clerics and only if their own alignment or their deity's alignment is explicitly opposed to the spell descriptor. It's wholly an issue of spell granting in this particularly form, as a neutral deity can happily hand out any spell in the book to their clerics but only 2/3 of their clerics will be able to receive those spells. So a Lawful Good cleric of a Neutral Good god can't cast protection from law, even though that's a spell the deity has 0% problems handing out.
Meanwhile, oracle mysteries are also said to be able to stem from deities but a Good oracle of a Good deity can still learn and cast animate dead or even use undead-related mystery powers 100% fine.
Similarly, lawful evil sorcerers and wizards can casually cast protection from evil or magic circle against law with no issues.
Paladins aren't restricted from casting spells with descriptors opposed to their alignments, so unless you're house ruling, a Paladin can totally use Unsanctioned Knowledge to pick up infernal healing off the cleric/oracle list and use it to heal people. Humorously, said Paladin probably has one of the most awesome supplies of freshly squeezed devil juice to fuel it. I mean, that pit fiend he just killed is just loaded with devil blood.
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So I had to look back a bit in my skype-log, but I found a conversation I had with a friend of mine. She'd read Dracula and the we talked about Van Hellsing being this overblown vampire-hunter in pop-culture. Somewhere in that conversation, this happened.
Count Dracula
NE male undead (vampire )
level 3 aristocrat/1 warrior
Init +6; senses darkvision 60ft, perception +12
AC 19 (10base +2 dex + 6 nat +1 dodge)
hp 34(3d8 + 1d10 + 12cha + 4 toughness)
Ability scores
Str 21, Dex 15, Con -, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Skills Appraise +5, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +8, Fly +3, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (History) +5, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Knowledge (Local) +5, Perception +12, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +17;
Feats skill focus (stealth), skill focus (intimidate), cleave, alertness, combat reflexes, dodge, improved initiative, lightning reflexes, toughness;
SQ blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, change shape, gaseous form, shadowless, spider climbShould probably be built with exceptional wealth, increasing his CR by 1.
Just felt like I should share that, what with the present conversation =]
-Nearyn
So I had to look back a bit in my skype-log, but I found a conversation I had with a friend of mine. She'd read Dracula and the we talked about Van Hellsing being this overblown vampire-hunter in pop-culture. Somewhere in that conversation, this happened.
Count Dracula
NE male undead (vampire )
level 3 aristocrat/1 warrior
Init +6; senses darkvision 60ft, perception +12
AC 19 (10base +2 dex + 6 nat +1 dodge)
hp 34(3d8 + 1d10 + 12cha + 4 toughness)
Ability scores
Str 21, Dex 15, Con -, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Skills Appraise +5, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +8, Fly +3, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (History) +5, Knowledge (Nobility) +6, Knowledge (Local) +5, Perception +12, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +17;
Feats skill focus (stealth), skill focus (intimidate), cleave, alertness, combat reflexes, dodge, improved initiative, lightning reflexes, toughness;
SQ blood drain, children of the night, create spawn, dominate, energy drain, change shape, gaseous form, shadowless, spider climbShould probably be built with exceptional wealth, increasing his CR by 1.
Just felt like I should share that, what with the present conversation =]
-Nearyn
with only 4hd he would be a vampire spawn
The main line of Paizo is the AP line - the RPG was created to support that line.
Yes. The PFRPG was created so that Paizo could continue there AP line with the lack of compatibility with 4e and the lack of licensing.
So while the Pathfinder RPG can be used to run any setting you like, the design intention was that it be used to run APs - which are set on Golarion. So the "in-built" fluff of the RPG is such that it conforms to Golarion in general. Thus it can be informative to examine Golarion to determine what the designers were thinking when creating the RPG.
My point is that it doesn't always conform so you cannot actually determine whether fluff from it applies to the setting neutral part of the game, or whether it is a setting specific exemption.
Now, an argument can be made that they have drifted to form more distinct entities over time, but certainly back in the CRB/Bestiary I days, which is where a lot of this fluff originates, the RPG was basically an accessory to the APs.
Golarion and RPG-line had conflicting stuff since CRB. Again, my primary example is the cleric class, which functions different in golarion.
So when you choose to ignore Golarion, which is entirely your right, you choose to ignore the basic setting assumptions on which the original rules were written - so of course there will be things that don't make sense in that context.
Except that it's written by separate people and sometimes conflicts with the rules of the game. Is it the assumption that elves will be played as aliens despite the fact that it is never even hinted at in the RPG-line. Is it the assumption that you cannot play a cleric of concepts despite the fact the rules say you can. Is it the assumption that ghoulism can be caused by fungus.
If we had to build him by RAW, then yeah, we'd have to increase his HD. What we attempted was to build something we felt could represent the count, as he is in the book. It was easily attainable at much lower level than what you generally see suggested. Same for Van Hellsing.
Don't remember the exact detail, but I do remember we placed Abraham van Hellsing as a level 1 aristocrat/2 expert.
-Nearyn
Maybe it's one of those situations where divine power is pretty accessible, but the approval of any one individual god is, like, unknowable and mysterious?The implications can get a bit weird, though. According to the druidic faith, being undead is more natural than metal armor? ("Zombies? Well, sure, they're still walking around with all the rotting flesh and everything, but it's not like they're blacksmiths.")Siabrae are neither clerics nor non-evil so I'm not sure what your point is.Stuff like "but neutral nature clerics can memorize animate dead" is not really a productive line of argument. I think they've said that in a perfect world they'd give a separate spell list to every kind of cleric, it's just outside the scope of what they can fit in the books.Siabrae would like to have a word with you, being literally undead druids who still have full druid powers.
And are lead by the single most powerful druid in Golarion at the moment.There's also the obvious implication that it has nothing to do with good/evil but entirely to do with clerics. Good oracles can know and cast any spell without issues at all. In fact, the Bones oracle has a supernatural ability to call undead servants without it being an evil ability.
Paladins, Rangers, Druids, Oracles, Sorcerers, Wizards, Magi, and pretty much everyone else can cast animate dead even if they're Good. Clerics are not the standard they are the exception.
*snip*
Perhaps not unknowable and mysterious, but just outside the scope of the Core Rulebook. Clerics refer to a code of conduct they must follow or lose their class features in the Ex-Clerics section of their write-up, but what that code of conduct actually entails is left as an exercise for the players/DM. Why they do both that open-ended 'decide for your own campaign' sort of thing but have the good/evil spell prevention clause written in stone is something of a mystery.
You know, this raises a good question. Your question, Milo, is why undead have to be evil in the RPG line. I don't believe that's a rule. It's true that nearly every statted undead in Bestiaries is evil, but I don't believe the rules take a stance on it.
There's a design objective that they generate content that's relevant to Golarion. So since Golarion has strong undead->evil guidelines, good undead don't fit the mold, but that doesn't mean they're incompatible with the rules. They just won't be published. If you create a new type of undead, making them typically good is no more a house rule than creating a new type of evil demon.
As for why undead creation spells are evil, it's because they make creatures that strongly tend to be evil. Just like summoning spells to summon demons. The undead creation spells have specific lists of creatures they make and those creatures are listed as evil in the Bestiary.
Edit: And I don't believe this is a shift in my position. I just realized the part you objected to doesn't actually exist in the core rules, so the explanation for it shouldn't exist in the core rules. Which must have been frustrating when many of the people arguing against your position weren't addressing the core point of all undead being evil. The closest the rules come to addressing that point is making hallow and consecrate work against undead, but that's just in line with good clerics getting positive channeling and evil clerics getting negative channeling. As far as the core rules are concerned, the extent that the undead type (rather than specific undead monsters) are tied to evil is a side-effect of good channeling heals and evil channeling harms and they flip it.
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You know, this raises a good question. Your question, Milo, is why undead have to be evil in the RPG line. I don't believe that's a rule. It's true that nearly every statted undead in Bestiaries is evil, but I don't believe the rules take a stance on it.
That's correct. Which is why I've been saying that without a specific rule or mechanic forcing their alignments to remain a certain thing, after the template is applied the normal rules for alignment come into play. So after a time (however long is normal for the GM to change alignment based on the norms set by the alignment rules) the mindless creatures will turn Neutral and the non-mindless creatures will turn to whatever is their individual norms (or new norms if their transformation impacts their worldview, such as power going to the head of what was otherwise just a man).
As for why undead creation spells are evil, it's because they make creatures that strongly tend to be evil. Just like summoning spells to summon demons. The undead creation spells have specific lists of creatures they make and those creatures are listed as evil in the Bestiary.
Yeah a funny fact concerning this is that if you're Neutral aligned, all the celestial and fiendish creatures you summon with summon monster spells are also neutral. They're neutral-aligned celestials and fiends. This amusingly means that things like protection from evil and protection from good do diddly squat against celestial and fiendish creatures summoned by a Neutral aligned caster.
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You know, this raises a good question. Your question, Milo, is why undead have to be evil in the RPG line. I don't believe that's a rule. It's true that nearly every statted undead in Bestiaries is evil, but I don't believe the rules take a stance on it.
Fortunately, by following bestiary rules even non-homebrew undead can even be Lawful Good paladins. :p
As for why undead creation spells are evil, it's because they make creatures that strongly tend to be evil.
Yeah, but to me, I don't see a difference between that an orcs reproducing. The bestiary says orcs are generally evil, they are making more orcs in the world, and thus bringing creatures that are most likely to be evil into the world. Though I suppose, there is no "Create Orc" spell. Maybe such a thing would have the [Evil] descriptor.
And I don't believe this is a shift in my position. I just realized the part you objected to doesn't actually exist in the core rules, so the explanation for it shouldn't exist in the core rules. Which must have been frustrating when many of the people arguing against your position weren't addressing the core point of all undead being evil.
I mean, part of my issue is that people Think that undead = evil, when the rules say "No, they don't have to be. You can have chaotic good ghouls. You can have lawful good vampires. Neutral good wraiths. Lawful neutral mummies. Etc." and me getting annoyed that undead templates like vampire auto-shift your alignment when it would probably make more sense to for them to stay at their normal alignment but be likely to fall since they now have urges to prey upon sentient beings. And people ruling things like "No you cannot play a lawful good animation-necromancer because when you cast animate dead your alignment turns evil" despite it not making any apparent sense and making implications like repeated protection from evil spells changing your alignment to good. and ugh...
Though, at least there are options in the rules of the RPG-line to remove all that from my games, without even needing to homebrew.
The closest the rules come to addressing that point is making hallow and consecrate work against undead, but that's just in line with good clerics getting positive channeling and evil clerics getting negative channeling. As far as the core rules are concerned, the extent that the undead type (rather than specific undead monsters) are tied to evil is a side-effect of good channeling heals and evil channeling harms and they flip it.
This reminds me. does anyone know of any archetypes that remove the "Evil = Negative, Good = Positive" for chaneling? I've always disliked this, since well. I think it should be dependant on religion rather than your alignment, creating a weird association between the alignments despite the the planes not having alignments and giving me the impression that Good undead should channel negative energy and that evil undead should channel positive energy...
edit: Um... Can people calm down? No reason things have to get heated.
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Amusingly, said clerics do in fact channel associated by alignment regardless of type. More humorously, undead Paladins can heal themselves with Lay on Hands and burn other undead with it. As for actually getting channel energy without the alignment stuff, necromancer wizards and bone oracles can get a restricted channel that's only for commanding undead.
If you've got both the familiar class feature and are a divine spellcaster of 4th CL or higher and a 13+ Cha, you can take Adept Channel from Orcs of Golarion (intended for allowing adepts the channel energy class feature).
It says you channel energy as a cleric, however, so it might be restricted based on alignment.
Dunno beyond that.
Amusingly, said clerics do in fact channel associated by alignment regardless of type. More humorously, undead Paladins can heal themselves with Lay on Hands and burn other undead with it. As for actually getting channel energy without the alignment stuff, necromancer wizards and bone oracles can get a restricted channel that's only for commanding undead.
If you've got both the familiar class feature and are a divine spellcaster of 4th CL or higher and a 13+ Cha, you can take Adept Channel from Orcs of Golarion (intended for allowing adepts the channel energy class feature).
It says you channel energy as a cleric, however, so it might be restricted based on alignment.
Dunno beyond that.
Unfortunately I meant for clerics doing channeling, since I don't see much link between most gods and a form of energy in most settings I've played in and have been disappointed that I have to houserule stuff to get it to work in the past.
Yeah a funny fact concerning this is that if you're Neutral aligned, all the celestial and fiendish creatures you summon with summon monster spells are also neutral. They're neutral-aligned celestials and fiends. This amusingly means that things like protection from evil and protection from good do diddly squat against celestial and fiendish creatures summoned by a Neutral aligned caster.
Huh. I never realized that. That's goofy and I really appreciate you pointing it out.
On the other point, you and I have not disagreed on alignment change based on action (other than the details - I say acting good and meaning it is an indicator you were good all along, but the difference here is academic), only what the implications of changing alignment are. But I'll leave that side conversation alone if you will. :-)
Yeah a funny fact concerning this is that if you're Neutral aligned, all the celestial and fiendish creatures you summon with summon monster spells are also neutral. They're neutral-aligned celestials and fiends. This amusingly means that things like protection from evil and protection from good do diddly squat against celestial and fiendish creatures summoned by a Neutral aligned caster.Huh. I never realized that. That's goofy and I really appreciate you pointing it out.
On the other point, you and I have not disagreed on alignment change based on action (other than the details - I say acting good and meaning it is an indicator you were good all along, but the difference here is academic), only what the implications of changing alignment are. But I'll leave that side conversation alone if you will. :-)
Sure thing. :P
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On the subject of celestial/fiendish creatures and summoning, it's one of the reasons that being a Neutral-aligned caster is also the strongest sort of caster (which bothers me, because there shouldn't be a "best" alignment for being powerful IMHO). Neutral aligned casters can bypass all the protection from spells when summoning celestial/fiendish creatures and can likewise ignore them when casting charm and dominate spells because while Paizo removed the ability to protect against all attempts from those spells, they didn't add in a protection from neutrality spell or anything.
So as is, neutral-aligned casters can wreck you with mind-affecting and summons even if you're saturated in protection from spells. They likewise take 1/2 damage from all anti-alignment spells automatically (1/4th on a successful save), aren't subject to things like bless weapon, and ignore the kicker effects on spells like holy smite and unholy blight.
The more I've become familiar with Pathfinder, the more I keep finding them making the game actually worse in fundamental ways over 3.x. Now 3.x was a cluster**** of bad splat material, poorly balanced core books, bad class design and so forth. However, I keep noticing that for every issue fixed in the core, Paizo failed to fix or broke two other things. >_>
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In a similar fashion, it bugs me that there are no chaos/law/evil equivalents of bless weapon. Or that the antipaladin's spell list sucks because the actual Paladin's spell list is loaded with great spells and the antipaladin's list is meh, partially because there are no equivalencies in terms of spells.
It would have actually been less lazy and more effectual to have taken the antipaladin's spell list and included a note saying "The antipaladin shares the Paladin's spell list with these few exceptions: *insert exceptions*. Further, any spell that affects good or evil creatures (such as bestow grace or bless weapon) has all instances of Good replaced with Evil and all instances of Evil replaced with Good".
As it is right now, your typical anti-Paladin is actually just going to get face-rolled by a real Paladin because the real Paladin will pop bestow grace and bless weapon, so not only will the antipaladin never manage to land one of their status ailments on the Paladin, the Paladin will also auto-confirm every critical threat against the anti-paladin and blow him to pieces with multiplied smite damage.
Unfortunately I meant for clerics doing channeling, since I don't see much link between most gods and a form of energy in most settings I've played in and have been disappointed that I have to houserule stuff to get it to work in the past.Amusingly, said clerics do in fact channel associated by alignment regardless of type. More humorously, undead Paladins can heal themselves with Lay on Hands and burn other undead with it. As for actually getting channel energy without the alignment stuff, necromancer wizards and bone oracles can get a restricted channel that's only for commanding undead.
If you've got both the familiar class feature and are a divine spellcaster of 4th CL or higher and a 13+ Cha, you can take Adept Channel from Orcs of Golarion (intended for allowing adepts the channel energy class feature).
It says you channel energy as a cleric, however, so it might be restricted based on alignment.
Dunno beyond that.
Well you can actually take the feat as a cleric if you can get a familiar as a class feature. In which case you gain a new set of channeling. This does mean that if you're a neutral cleric you could choose to make the new channeling feature the opposing energy type.
EDIT: So if you're a multiclassed cleric or get a familiar from an archetype or something, you can pick the feat up and being Neutral you can 100% certainly choose whether your new channel energy channels positive or negative energy.
I just meant that the choice might still be restricted by alignment since it says "otherwise functions as the cleric's channel energy class feature".
Well you can actually take the feat as a cleric if you can get a familiar as a class feature. In which case you gain a new set of channeling. This does mean that if you're a neutral cleric you could choose to make the new channeling feature the opposing energy type.
For some reason I don't think the priests of 90% of the religions of my setting should have familiars :P
Well you can actually take the feat as a cleric if you can get a familiar as a class feature. In which case you gain a new set of channeling. This does mean that if you're a neutral cleric you could choose to make the new channeling feature the opposing energy type.For some reason I don't think the priests of 90% of the religions of my setting should have familiars :P
Neither do I. :(
Maybe I'll find something. Otherwise we'll probably just need to turn to homebrew/house rules. It's what I did. I still use alignment in my games but it's heavily modified, and as a result clerics and stuff choose what type of energy they are most suited for channeling regardless of alignment (mostly based on whether the individual cleric views, since warrior priests are likely to use their channeling as a weapon).
Maybe I'll find something. Otherwise we'll probably just need to turn to homebrew/house rules. It's what I did. I still use alignment in my games but it's heavily modified, and as a result clerics and stuff choose what type of energy they are most suited for channeling regardless of alignment (mostly based on whether the individual cleric views, since warrior priests are likely to use their channeling as a weapon).
I use subjective morality rather than standard alignment rules.
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I prefer my vampires along the Strahd von Zarovich / Dracula lines.Ah, so you prefer vampires that can survive indefinitely in sunlight? After all, Dracula could. You'd also have to throw out a lot of the Pathfinder vampire template (which I assume you're comfortable doing as you've already thrown out the alignment rules).
Then again I'm a traditionalist.Apparently not. If you were really a traditionalist, you'd despise how Stoker ignored and completely reshaped centuries of traditional stories about vampires. And you'd dislike the authors of Ravenloft even more for basing Strahd Von Zarovich off of Hollywood-Dracula and ignoring the traditional sources.
If you are going to rant about your personal preferences, please be honest about them and don't hide behind a faux sense of "tradition" when it's readily clear you don't care about tradition at all.
Honestly, I've been strongly considering revising my own vampires to make them capable of existing in sunlight but in a weakened state. Especially after reading The Anatomy of Failed Design: Vampire The Masquerade. Specifically this part...
Vampires in Vampire have a big problem with sunlight and fire. That's defensible from a folklore standpoint, but it's obviously problematic. Very notably, Dracula wasn't unable to handle sunlight, he was just weaker during the day. If he had been literally unable to take a blast of sunlight to the face, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere with his evil schemes. In a modern setting, this works at all, but only just. A lot of shit only happens when the sun is up, and while you can do things with electric lights, it's very limited indeed. But if you scale things back to any kind of past at all, things don't work at all. You can't interact with people as anything but a whispered voice from under the bed if there isn't any light, and before 1880, literally all of the light was generated by fire or the sun. All of it. So you can't have any vampire counts or vampires in posh clothes having their portraits taken or any of that shit.
Remember, Toreador are supposed to hang out with artists doing art wanky salon shit. Ventrue are supposed to have evil business meetings. Vampires need to hang out where people are doing people things. They can do it at night (or at least, mostly at night), but people have to f~+@ing be around. And if vampires have to spend all their time hermetically sealed from all light sources, they can't do that. Because humans do all their interactions except f$~&ing in the light. Even when they do things at night they still bring light with them. To add insult to retardedness, the vampires in Masquerade don't even have any special ability to navigate in darkness. So they are not only incapable of hanging out with historical figures, their history is one of stumbling around in the dark like a radio comedy.
What this means is that the limitations on vampires are way too big, and it ends up requiring a whole lot of mind caulk to keep the setting moving at all. Sunlight actually setting vampires on fire is a cool device, but it doesn't work. If you're going to have a cooperative storytelling setting with the vampires as anything other than cave dwelling beasts, they need to be able to stand fire and sunlight. They can find it distasteful or even uncomfortable, but they have to be able to be in its f*%~ing presence.
Maybe I'll find something. Otherwise we'll probably just need to turn to homebrew/house rules. It's what I did. I still use alignment in my games but it's heavily modified, and as a result clerics and stuff choose what type of energy they are most suited for channeling regardless of alignment (mostly based on whether the individual cleric views, since warrior priests are likely to use their channeling as a weapon).I use subjective morality rather than standard alignment rules.
Maybe we should swap notes sometime. :)
Maybe we should swap notes sometime. :)
I used to have a giant page of house rules for alignment... now I just use this. Thank you Mark Seifter.
Honestly, I've been strongly considering revising my own vampires to make them capable of existing in sunlight but in a weakened state.
Give a look to Dreamscarred Presses vampire rules, which has them as weakened in sunlight (which affects mages and martials).
Has anything been solved yet or are we up to "do what you want in your own games"?
Has anything been solved yet or are we up to "do what you want in your own games"?
nope nothing solved
I
As it is right now, your typical anti-Paladin is actually just going to get face-rolled by a real Paladin because the real Paladin will pop bestow grace and bless weapon, so not only will the antipaladin never manage to land one of their status ailments on the Paladin, the Paladin will also auto-confirm every critical threat against the anti-paladin and blow him to pieces with multiplied smite damage.
It's the Paladins clocked that's going to be creamed for the folloiwng reasons.
1. The Paladin wasted two combat rounds buffing his weapon, so he's obviously weaker.
2. The Anti-Paladin not being an honest believer in fair one on one combat has used those two rounds setting the Paladin up for flanking precison damage with oe of his allies.
3. He can smite along with the best of them.
The Paladin has one unfair advantage... his swift action self heals. Hopefully the Anti-Paladin would have given him reason to use up some of those before the engagement.
Has anything been solved yet or are we up to "do what you want in your own games"?
If someone had solved human nature in this thread, you'd have heard about it on the morning news.
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Has anything been solved yet or are we up to "do what you want in your own games"?
In the old days, that's where we would have started... and finished.
Has anything been solved yet or are we up to "do what you want in your own games"?In the old days, that's where we would have started... and finished.
Everyday is the old days when you are knightnday!
Knightday, what are you looking to be "solved"? "Solving" something would imply that you believe there was a problem to begin with. What is that problem you were hoping this thread could solve?
No real solution, really, just looking to break the mood up a bit and see if we've come up with something more than slapping back and forth. The last few pages have been a little growly. Which, I guess, was the point of what I was saying: While I appreciate all the verbiage, is it going somewhere?
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No real solution, really, just looking to break the mood up a bit and see if we've come up with something more than slapping back and forth. The last few pages have been a little growly. Which, I guess, was the point of what I was saying: While I appreciate all the verbiage, is it going somewhere?
And here I thought me and Berinor were being rather civil :p
No real solution, really, just looking to break the mood up a bit and see if we've come up with something more than slapping back and forth. The last few pages have been a little growly. Which, I guess, was the point of what I was saying: While I appreciate all the verbiage, is it going somewhere?And here I thought me and Berinor were being rather civil :p
Yes, you have been. But there have been others that aren't playing quite as nicely together. :)
In any case, it IS an interesting thread with some intriguing ideas that makes you go "hmmm." I'm not sure that they'd necessarily work for every campaign, but then again what does?
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No real solution, really, just looking to break the mood up a bit and see if we've come up with something more than slapping back and forth. The last few pages have been a little growly. Which, I guess, was the point of what I was saying: While I appreciate all the verbiage, is it going somewhere?And here I thought me and Berinor were being rather civil :p
I'd like to think that I'm pretty civil when people aren't constantly misrepresenting what I'm saying. Though it's only an unconfirmed theory. :P
As to what we've determined from the thread:
1. Undead, even those like vampires, aren't required to be evil. This is supported by the Bestiary explanation for creature types and alignments as well as (and most importantly) the core rules on alignment.
2. Undead whose alignment is changed by a template have no special feature or ability that creates an exception to the alignment rules, so they will shift to whatever alignment best describes their moral attitudes (Neutral for mindless creatures) because they are still subject to the core alignment rules. How long this takes is dependent on the GM, but the GM is required to be consistent with it.
3. Alignment doesn't control your actions outside of the very specific helm of opposite alignment, thus being turned evil by a template or magic item doesn't prevent you from returning to being non-evil or even stop you from acting good. Your alignment will shift back at a pace determined by the GM, but the GM is required to be consistent with it.
4. Atonement can be used to change alignment and restore class features rapidly. It is likewise done at no extra cost if the change was involuntary, meaning undead Paladins such as those turned into vampires can quickly recover their features and alignment and go play Vampire Hunter D now.
5. Clerics (and only clerics) have issues with negative energy and alignment descriptor spells based on their alignments. Every other class (including Paladins) have no restrictions on the types of spells they are allowed to cast. This prevents the cleric argument from being used to signify definitive correlation to things like negative energy or alignment subtyped spells being only usable by particular alignments.
6. Oracles make really good candidates for being Good and also marching around with a small army of undead. They have methods of calling up undead as a supernatural ability that has no alignment subtype and eventually get to cast animate dead as an SLA without expending material components. They can likewise pick up animate dead as a 3rd level spell and cast it while being Good aligned.
7. Neutral is the superior alignment because rules are hard for Paizo.
8. Vampires can easily feed and sate their hungers without ever putting people at risk of dying. This fans the flames of evil when a vampire does serious harm or slays people by feeding as it's a bullet point denoting just how evil they are.
9. Ghouls are actually pretty cool and most want to be left alone and prefer eating rotten corpses.
10. Cannibalism isn't in and of itself evil. Murdering people is.
11. Mindless undead don't have souls nor trap souls. This is confirmed in the cosmological rules, the rules for the dead condition, the rules for magic jar, etc.
12. Blood drain actually causes Con damage rather than drain.
13. Commoners are the other white meat.
14. I put too much thought into NPCs and their behavior. I am unapologetic for this habit.
The quest for truth continues! @_@
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15. Nature is associated with the Neutral alignment, so going against it does not automatically equate with Evil.
16. I just learned you can freeze vampire souls.