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Understanding the general implications of undeath in its many Pathfinder iterations, I still don't see becoming undead as an absolute imperative to become evil as a result, unless the form of undeath is unintelligent and not free-willed.
As an example, I'll focus on the Lich. In the description of becoming a lich, there is no part of the process that requires a specifically evil act. Any evil in the process would come solely from the ultimate intent of the person going down that path.
As an example, imagine a human mage (appropriately short-lived in the grand scheme of things) who has been tasked with the duty of guarding something - a location, or object of power, for example. As the mage ages and begins to see that there doesn't appear to be an apparent heir to the duty coming to the fore, yet his/her life is coming towards its inevitable end. That person may make the decision to sacrifice all to continue performing their duties well beyond their natural life spans... at least until another qualified person comes along.
More relevant to an adventuring party, another human mage might see themselves as the guide to the rest of a youthful party (or one made up of beings with much longer life spans) and feels he/she should linger on to continue helping them.
Perhaps the story arch is an intentionally long and complex one, and the character (which, btw, apparently doesn't even need to be a caster, let alone a mage, if they have access to one... warrior liches exist) just can't let death get in the way of saving the world from the end-game bad guy.
Part of my reasoning stems from an appreciation for the potential difficulties of playing such a role. As a lich, one doesn't instantly turn into a rotten corpse-like pile of bones and parchment-skin. That takes decades... even centuries to happen. One could go for years as just an arcane oddity who makes people feel uncomfortable because of a notable aura of something... other.
But all of that just touches upon the subject. Even with NPC's, a ghost might not be even remotely evil; seeking, rather, to see their murderer brought to justice, or even just keep people from falling into the bog that had killed them.
Long story short, I tend to dislike absolutes like, "This can only ever be evil."
Thoughts?
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Think of it in the opposite way, in Golarion, it is axiomatically true that undead are evil. Thus, if a template makes you undead then it must require you to do something very evil. Even if the rules don't tell you what. :)
I believe that it has been mentioned that ghosts are an exception to the rule.
Well, most undead templates (Paizo's, anyway) are from the point of perspective that all undead on Golarion are, unequivocally, evil.
No exceptions, no buts, just evil. (Edit: besides ghosts, so I guess one exception.)
Now, a lot of people, including myself, don't agree with this stance, but it still stands.
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As an example, I'll focus on the Lich. In the description of becoming a lich, there is no part of the process that requires a specifically evil act. Any evil in the process would come solely from the ultimate intent of the person going down that path..
There is no default description of the process. Apparantly every would-be lich invents his or her own. Every process however that's ever been described is one that requires the mass amount of sentient death as part of the job. Rituals so heinous that you can't complete them without being certified evil at the end.
No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.
The mage in your example has a variety of ways to approach the problem. He chose the most self-centered part because of the arrogant belief that he is essential to the solution.
Blood of the Night has a section on non-evil vampires
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Saying that there are NEVER non-evil undead precludes a lot of story options for both GMs and players, and we're in the business of giving people fodder for stories, not snuffing them out before they've even had a chance to develop. In general, whenever possible, it's our official preference not to use superlatives when defining canon, both so future creative juices can explore the exceptions, but also so we don't lay ourselves a canon trap (ie. saying all snarvblatts are CN and then publishing details on a tribe of them that are LE and worship Asmodeus without realizing we'd said that could never happen).
With that said, there's a reason we often say that most or nearly all of a given creature has a certain alignment—allowing for too many exceptions takes the teeth out of the threat the base creature poses. Truthfully, do the generally non-evil vampires in the "Twilight" series make you more or less scared of vampires? Does the possibility that the ghost in your uncle's house might be friendly like Casper make that adventure more or less exciting when you venture in to meet it? Does that goblin paladin you met, that gave you hope that the entire race could be redeemed from their psychopathic ways, make you more or less likely to fear what a tribe of goblins will do to the undefended village?
Exceptions are fine, but if they're too common, or too strongly emphasized, they do damage to the entire mythos surrounding other creatures of their kind. Defang monsters with care, because it's hard to put the Drizzt back in the bottle.
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One thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading). But even in the core rules, undeath is inextricably linked to negative energy. It is presented as an antithesis to life in general, and focusing negative energy is the prerogative of evil clerics or those venerating evil gods. This good/life/healing vs. evil/dark/undeath dichotomy is pretty much part of the genetic code of the game, if you will. Negative energy is defined as evil, and this negative energy powers the undead.
A free-willed undead can probably go against this (and would make for an interesting character, struggling against his inner darkness), but most won´t bother after a time, especially if negative energy fuels their power anyway. Who knows? Perhaps a lich needs to be evil to be able to cast his spells, as they draw on his unlife force, as depicted by his daily allotment of spells. Otherwise, why would their spellcasting be limited at all, as undead don´t tire or get exhausted or even need to rest?
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Base don the behavior of nightshades and sceaduinars - both beings of living negative energy - I think its fair to say that negative energy carries with it overwhelming negative emotions. (To Star Wars it up, negative energy probably has a lot in common with the Dark Side of the Force.)
It's also worth keeping in mind that negative energy hurts. Even a mild dose of it can instantly kill a normal human.
So becoming a lich amounts to both trading out your life force in exchange for running on undiluted hatred and hunger, and also setting yourself on fire forever.
The effects on your mental state may not be entirely desirable =P
Edit: Also, IIRC from Undead Revisited and Classic Horrors Revisited, most undead exist in a state of hunger-fueled agony that only subsides while they're chowing down on mortals.)
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One thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading).
Big hole in your argument is the fact that negative energy is not actually evil. It is used by evil, but not actually evil. In the same way positive energy is used by good but not actually good.
Agreed, Mark Moreland, in all respects. The only two reasons for departure from cannon are: story arch, and character development.
Now the side question: if something must be a flavor of evil, is Lawful Evil not a viably playable option, even in the face of Good-aligned players? After all, though the character in question is "evil" (effectively translated as "selfish"), said character does their level best not to break laws or rules... which may well include oaths sworn to the gaming group regarding allowable behaviors.
The fun of this comes from roleplaying character conversations and exploration of moral grounds, in my opinion. It's another version of a True Neutral Druid pointing out and defending some of the viewpoints of humanoids (monstrous and normal) as being relative to environment and circumstance.
There's opportunity for growth for everyone in the group if properly done, certainly including the Evil character. In fact, the goal may be to redeem that very character in the long run. In fact, there's a distinct challenge in accurately portraying the slide from evil to neutral, to possibly even good - in my opinion - that can produce some amazing story archs.
It seems to me that as long as the GM and (more importantly in some respects) other players agree with the idea ahead of character creation and implementation.
Thoughts?
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One thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading).Big hole in your argument is the fact that negative energy is not actually evil. It is used by evil, but not actually evil. In the same way positive energy is used by good but not actually good.
also too much positive energy can kill as well
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@ The Unknown Elder - Honestly, any evil can work as long as you make it a point to not be in conflict with the other PCs.
Being evil doesn't prevent you from liking other people, after all.
(Most important thing is selling to the other players. Basically, convince the people playing good characters that you aren't out to screw with them, and you're golden. You can totally get away with being a psychopath as long as the party feels you are their psychopath =P)
also too much positive energy can kill as wellOne thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading).Big hole in your argument is the fact that negative energy is not actually evil. It is used by evil, but not actually evil. In the same way positive energy is used by good but not actually good.
The best example supporting this is the condition of Neutral Clerics of Neutral deities, allowing them to choose (on creation) which energy to focus upon.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/paizo-fans-united/general-fea ts/dual-channeling
The dual-channeling feat allows for the use of both by one Cleric, though one is still the primary focus.
With that said, there's a reason we often say that most or nearly all of a given creature has a certain alignment—allowing for too many exceptions takes the teeth out of the threat the base creature poses. Truthfully, do the generally non-evil vampires in the "Twilight" series make you more or less scared of vampires?
Still scary because the evil vampires are in charge of the vampires: the Twilight main cast are outcasts.
Does the possibility that the ghost in your uncle's house might be friendly like Casper make that adventure more or less exciting when you venture in to meet it?
Seeing as a I had a ghost nanny, it would depend if it was a good ghost or poltergeist being. The nanny was a bad ghost with previous tenants, but I was a baby and she lost hers so that calmed her enough to be friendly.
Then my mom went and exorcised her about a year later since she didn't noticed her till way late. She didn't think anything about fact that I never cried at night.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(Most important thing is selling to the other players. Basically, convince the people playing good characters that you aren't out to screw with them, and you're golden. You can totally get away with being a psychopath as long as the party feels you are their psychopath =P)
Quoted for emphasis.
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For the same reason that people assume drow = evil, when 99% of a demographic is hostile and cruel, the safe assumption when encountering one is assuming the being in question is hostile and cruel. When waiting to find out whether its true or not includes a risk of death and becoming undead yourself, there's only one non-suicidal reaction to have.
It's a method to provide easy moral justification to kill without any other reason than their existence. If you're running a simplistic game where the good guys wear white and the bad guys are ostentatious and puppy kicking evil, then undead are always evil works great. If you want to tell a more complex story, ignore any "always evil" undead or otherwise, in favour of characters that have depth and personality instead of just a (stereo)type.
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It's a method to provide easy moral justification to kill without any other reason than their existence. If you're running a simplistic game where the good guys wear white and the bad guys are ostentatious and puppy kicking evil, then undead are always evil works great. If you want to tell a more complex story, ignore any "always evil" undead or otherwise, in favour of characters that have depth and personality instead of just a (stereo)type.
Yknow i tried to set this down but its a little trolly to refer to games with absolute good and absolute evil as simplistic. I'm relatively certain few games have had the complexity of the one where my GM ran 3 separate parties/campaigns as champions of good, evil, and neutrality on a simultaneous timeline whether they pull the grey area alignment thing or not.
Not everyone is into navel gazing and 20 minute discussions over whether or not to try to talk antagonists down in their games.
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It's a method to provide easy moral justification to kill without any other reason than their existence. If you're running a simplistic game where the good guys wear white and the bad guys are ostentatious and puppy kicking evil, then undead are always evil works great. If you want to tell a more complex story, ignore any "always evil" undead or otherwise, in favour of characters that have depth and personality instead of just a (stereo)type.
Complex stories can be told with those "restrictions" easily enough. Case in point, the entirety of Golorian with removal of any and all plots with exceptions in them. There is a HUGE amount of material out there, hardly any of it is "simplistic" due to not having the special snowflakes.
What's simplistic about the idea is that all X are bad. That means X doesn't require any motivation, characterization, plot, or even thought. That is a way to say X exists for you to kill for points. There's no potential for growth or storytelling involving X. Two things that can help define a character are what they stand for, and what they stand against. When what they stand against is a cardboard cutout with no motivation or characterization, It can make a character seem less meaningful. When bad guys are bad guys because they're bad, doesn't that sound a little simplistic?
Besides, if you think "member of a traditionally evil race seeking redemption" is cliche, try "black and white world", literally one of the oldest storytelling cliches. Think of examples of interesting books, movies, and shows. Do the more interesting ones tend to be ones with a black and white world, or ones with more nuance? Are the interesting ones the ones where all X are Y, or the ones where beings are individuals and have reasons to do what they do? Even Paizo goes beyond the black and white approach in their stories, with members of traditionally good races choosing evil, and members of "always evil" species choosing good.
Absolutes simplify, that's why they're used.
My interpretation of alignment is relatively loose, but most any interactions with negative energy could definitely not be considered "good." The closest a person could get to being good and working with undead would be Morning Glory from Libris Mortis (my favorite deity). I played a dread necromancer back in the day who wanted to be good, but couldn't because his way of assisting people was often so morally grey they did not want to work with him (fellow adventurers not withstanding of course). I made him LN, he respected people laws and tried to do what was right, but his way of doing good desecrated things.
A person should not be limited by their alignment, but they should respect it in terms of how the world (or the metaphysical worlds) react to it.
I'm running Wrath of the Righteous, at one point to advance the plot someone has to essentially make a prayer to a demon lord. Normally such things wouldn't ding alignment (it could be done without intent or meaning), but when you are praying to a power on their home plane that is grounds for at the least a ding on the scale towards chaos and evil. I didn't have the character shift, but I made them aware that it was trying on their soul. Same for accepting a profane gift from a demonic power (though that would be an immediate shift).
But that is what I love about alignment, its open to interpretation.
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One thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading). But even in the core rules, undeath is inextricably linked to negative energy. It is presented as an antithesis to life in general, and focusing negative energy is the prerogative of evil clerics or those venerating evil gods. This good/life/healing vs. evil/dark/undeath dichotomy is pretty much part of the genetic code of the game, if you will. Negative energy is defined as evil, and this negative energy powers the undead.
A free-willed undead can probably go against this (and would make for an interesting character, struggling against his inner darkness), but most won´t bother after a time, especially if negative energy fuels their power anyway. Who knows? Perhaps a lich needs to be evil to be able to cast his spells, as they draw on his unlife force, as depicted by his daily allotment of spells. Otherwise, why would their spellcasting be limited at all, as undead don´t tire or get exhausted or even need to rest?
would you also feel the same way about black blooded oracles or dhampiers
Base don the behavior of nightshades and sceaduinars - both beings of living negative energy - I think its fair to say that negative energy carries with it overwhelming negative emotions. (To Star Wars it up, negative energy probably has a lot in common with the Dark Side of the Force.)
It's also worth keeping in mind that negative energy hurts. Even a mild dose of it can instantly kill a normal human.
So becoming a lich amounts to both trading out your life force in exchange for running on undiluted hatred and hunger, and also setting yourself on fire forever.
The effects on your mental state may not be entirely desirable =P
Edit: Also, IIRC from Undead Revisited and Classic Horrors Revisited, most undead exist in a state of hunger-fueled agony that only subsides while they're chowing down on mortals.)
the "dark side emotions" also included things like love as a reminder
and even a tiny bit of a cure spell would kill a first level black blooded oracle or dhampier
neither of those have any alignment restrictions and have nothing to do with any choice made by those characters
are they evil?
as a note the bit from classic horrors revisited mentioned that to be the case with ghouls, most vampires, and unintelligent zombies if [/i]I[/i] recall correctly
also too much positive energy can kill as wellOne thing pointing to the "evilness" of undead is their connection to negative energy. I´m not sure if this has been explored in depth in Pathfinder (I´m waaay behind on my reading).Big hole in your argument is the fact that negative energy is not actually evil. It is used by evil, but not actually evil. In the same way positive energy is used by good but not actually good.
makes you explode if I remember my planescape right
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Exceptions are fine, but if they're too common, or too strongly emphasized, they do damage to the entire mythos surrounding other creatures of their kind. Defang monsters with care, because it's hard to put the Drizzt back in the bottle.
I think that what you're missing out is the fact that many people don't want to. Or believe in the bottle in the first place. That there are folks who prefer for example, that differences between drow and surface elf be more defined by history and culture than an alignment graph, especially since surface elves themselves aren't what most would consider "good" in the portrayals that Paizo itself presented.
Its much like the difference between old and new Trek. The Original Series was framed by the prejudices of the 50's, tempered by the Establishment (not prrogressive) optimisim of the early 60's. Klingons butcher hostages to make a point and even have Snidely whiskers to twirl. And nearly every alien world is hung up on some form of lunatic behavior compared to the Federation's clearly American values.
New Trek on the other hand is framed by it's generation's values of nuance and mistrust of authority, especially in the shows after TNG.
And there are fans of both. Just as there are those within the D20 sphere who hanker to both old style kick in the door gaming, and those looking for roleplaying nuance. The strength of Paizo's material is that it can keep both groups happy as long as we remember that "homebrew" has always been the way this game has run.
As an example, I'll focus on the Lich. In the description of becoming a lich, there is no part of the process that requires a specifically evil act.
Not quite.
Its always been a fairly evil act (in flavour) but Occult Realms has actually put an example of what the ritual might look like. This one for instance has the [Evil] descriptor and requires some pretty nasty stuff. You can make a 'neutral' or 'good' one but most of what's written has it as Evil by default (as a DM you are obviously capable of changing stuff for the sake of story). You're honestly better off avoiding the term Lich at that point, as great evil for eternal life and power is sort of their shtick.
This ritual represents just one way some liches have transferred their souls into phylacteries. Other rituals tied to lichdom involve bargains or liaisons with evil outsiders, caster-created alchemical tinctures infused with the energy of loved ones' souls, and other such trying necessities. Although heinously evil, the eternal apotheosis occult ritual is perhaps the most direct way to achieve lichdom.
I'd post it, but I don't know what the policy looks like on that kind of stuff. But it does require turning helpless or willing participants to dust and a site of a great atrocity or evil that you have a personal tie to and feel fueled by. It has much more in the description of the ritual as well.
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Don't undead either depend on drawing sustenance from the living or possess abilities that are inimical to mortal life? Ghouls, wraiths, wights, mohrgs and of corporate vampires are possessed of an intense hunger and consume flesh or souls.
Liches, ghosts etc are pretty harmful to others.
I am fine with the assumption that being unable to die makes you so distant to mortals that some psychosis are bound to appear.
I think putting undead templates on a player characters is an incredibly difficult balancing act, unless everyone goes undead.
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I seriously don't understand this obsession with non-Evil undead. Golarion isn't a modern gothic setting; it's high-fantasy, where "good" undead seem woefully out of place. If you want them in your game, that's fine; just houserule it. But it seems like every few days we get another thread complaining about the lack of canonical non-evil undead in a setting that has made it abundantly clear, several times, that creating undead, or pursuing undeath on purpose, is clearly an Evil action.
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I seriously don't understand this obsession with non-Evil undead. Golarion isn't a modern gothic setting; it's high-fantasy, where "good" undead seem woefully out of place.
That's actually WHY many people want to play a good undead in Golarion. It's SSS. (Special Snowflake Syndrome)
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What's simplistic about the idea is that all X are bad. That means X doesn't require any motivation, characterization, plot, or even thought. That is a way to say X exists for you to kill for points. There's no potential for growth or storytelling involving X. Two things that can help define a character are what they stand for, and what they stand against. When what they stand against is a cardboard cutout with no motivation or characterization, It can make a character seem less meaningful. When bad guys are bad guys because they're bad, doesn't that sound a little simplistic?
I don't know. Revenants are an excellent example of an evil undead with room for conflict and character development: They are victims. They are born because they died in a horrible horrible way, and they are only seeking to pay back the person that did this to them. That brings an obvious problem for PCs- "Why should we stop him?". Revenants are the result of actions by the kind of people you would probably want to take your greatsword to anyway. You might even be tempted to team up with the revenant.
The circumstances behind the type of undead's creation can tell a story in an of itself. The abomination is just a conclusion that you finish with your blade- the real story is about what lead to that point. That story can become a part of your own story. A ghoul trapped in a cave might ahve resulted from a poor soul forced to eat the flesh of its fellow prisoners after they were all locked away and left to die- thus, you may want to find out who locked them up.
When undead are victims twisted into monsters, you can find plenty of ways to continue the story. They are just bodies at a murder scene that need you to do a few attack rolls before you can begin investigation.
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No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.
The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth. In fact, it's very holy, sacred, and noble.
And then "Evil" is slapped on you because screw everyone.
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I seriously don't understand this obsession with non-Evil undead. Golarion isn't a modern gothic setting; it's high-fantasy, where "good" undead seem woefully out of place.That's actually WHY many people want to play a good undead in Golarion. It's SSS. (Special Snowflake Syndrome)
Or the Glittering Vampire Syndrome ? ;-)
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The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth.
Unless you're an alchemist who can become a mummy with a special diet and 30 days of 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10 KM run.
No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth. In fact, it's very holy, sacred, and noble.
And then "Evil" is slapped on you because screw everyone.
The mummy is indeed a curious case. The standard variety is explicitly created as a guardian, and could justifiably be LN instead of LE. But the Spell Create Undead is evil necromancy. Now, other spells and magic to create some kind of guardian (say, a golem) are not necessarily evil. So, creating undead is probably evil per definition. If so, you could argue that BEING undead has to be even more evil, irredemably so.
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...pursuing undeath on purpose is clearly an Evil action.
I don't think the process of pursuing undeath, or how you become a lich or mummy, is the relevant issue.
A lot of undead creatures didn't become undead voluntarily. A Paladin who was defeated by a vampire and turned into a vampire didn't do anything intentionally evil to get his CR+2 template. Needing to drink blood to live isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't go around taking it from innocent people by force.
But canonically, there's something about the undead condition that warps your mind (quickly? slowly?) to evil. Otherwise, undead would have the same alignment range as everyone else, and they'd just be ordinary citizens, adventurers, soldiers, etc. Which is fine if that's the type of world you want to create, but sometimes it's nice to have creatures you can run into while adventuring and know that it's OK to kill them.
The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth.Unless you're an alchemist who can become a mummy with a special diet and 30 days of 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10 KM run.
Your hair all falls out, though
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But canonically, there's something about the undead condition that warps your mind (quickly? slowly?) to evil. Otherwise, undead would have the same alignment range as everyone else, and they'd just be ordinary citizens, adventurers, soldiers, etc. Which is fine if that's the type of world you want to create, but sometimes it's nice to have creatures you can run into while adventuring and know that it's OK to kill them.
Or perhaps it's not really you at all anymore. Order of the Stick has a storyline going about a main character going vampire - and the character isn't actually controlling his body at all. His soul/personality is being held captive by the vampire - held captive in his own mind for the vampire to interrogate. Watching - but unable to do anything.
I thought that it was an interesting take on it.
Your hair all falls out, thoughThe price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth.Unless you're an alchemist who can become a mummy with a special diet and 30 days of 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, and a 10 KM run.
but you do gain ungodly strength and the ability to kill everything with one punch
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Tammy uses Gentle Repose, a girl's gotta look fresh after all.
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The mummy is indeed a curious case. The standard variety is explicitly created as a guardian, and could justifiably be LN instead of LE. But the Spell Create Undead is evil necromancy. Now, other spells and magic to create some kind of guardian (say, a golem) are not necessarily evil. So, creating undead is probably evil per definition. If so, you could argue that BEING undead has to be even more evil, irredemably so.No matter what the initial goal or justfication may be... you simply can't exist beyond your alotted span without a price. And frequently much of that price is paid by the innocent.The price of becoming a Mummy, which is a popular lich alternative for clerics and such, is holy oils, blessed linens, fragrant flowers, and so forth. In fact, it's very holy, sacred, and noble.
And then "Evil" is slapped on you because screw everyone.
See the problem with Golems is that they are actually subjugated Elementals, basically bound and forced into servitude to animate a body.
Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.
I would say thats as Evil as forcing someone into undeath. The descriptors are really just there to show what type of energy is powering a spell. What you do with it is still fairly important as well.