More like "Oh my god, this Paladin keeps going around accusing people without any evidence to back up his claims. What's his deal?!?"
If you think you can accuse someone without any evidence beyond your word you think you are above the law. And that is not a very Paladin way of thinking.
Casual reminder that scanning people in public and smiting them out of nowhere is not acceptable behavior for paladins.
If you have access to Dragon magazine back issues, they had a number of "paladins" of every alignment over the years. That might suit what you are looking for. Now, they had different codes and outlooks than the bog-standard paladin, ones that corresponded with the alignment.
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Alright, so paladins are taken at their word because they can't lie. Let's go with that. They're not the only people who can't lie. Several gods do not allow telling lies which means a few clerics should also be taken for their word. Torag comes to mind especially. And clerics are probably the easiest class to identify, just have them channel energy once from their holy symbol.
You can also, oh I don't know, cast touch of truthtelling like I said a thousand times now.
This spell functions identically to the spell zone of truth, except as noted above. The target momentarily takes on the semblance of a being of perfect order, like an archon or inevitable, so that all who can see the target know it is affected by the spell. This divine guise flickers over the target for only an instant and does not allow it to pass as a member of a different race.
With it being a first level spell unless you're in a rural town of like 12 people someone should be available to say "yes, this person is telling the truth." My oracle has this spell on her list just in case she needs to clear her name. If you're that worried about a GM framing you for a crime and you don't have a paladin just carry a scroll of the spell. It's only 25 gp.
It's also superior to a paladin because a paladin's word can't bail out the rogue that got caught alone with a fresh corpse while this can.
More like "Oh my god, this Paladin keeps going around accusing people without any evidence to back up his claims. What's his deal?!?"
If you think you can accuse someone without any evidence beyond your word you think you are above the law. And that is not a very Paladin way of thinking.
Way to try to twist the situation.
The situation is the Paladin is found standing over a dead body. The Paladin explains that the dead person attacked him with a sword. There is no sword at the scene but the Paladin says it turned into a snake and slithered away.
At that point the Sheriff has to decide what to do.
This is not, "Let's accuse people of things."
It was when you changed the topic of discussion.
Also anyone who openly voiced a fear of them would be met with suspicion. "Why? You got something to hide?"
Here's one.
That author looks mighty familiar...
Anyway, digging out the issue to find that you get:
(NG) Sentinel
(CG) Avenger
(LN) Enforcer
(N) Incarnate
(CN) Anarch
Issue 312 covers:
(LE) Despot
(NE) Corrupter
(CE) Anti-Paladin
Wow, pulling BIRTHRIGHT out of the box. That takes me back. How'd you happen to remember that one? Horus' CG Paladins I vaguely remember from FR, but Birthright?
I'd forgotten Horus' paladins until you mentioned it, but I've spent several years playing and GMing in online Birthright campaigns, so I have a distinct advantage in that regard. :)
It's still bizarre to me that you think playing Lawful Good is so much of an unbearable challenge that it's a balancing factor for the Paladin to discourage "powergamers" from taking it. Putting aside the fact that I and many other "powergamers" are fully capable of playing LG even when we're not required to do so, the PF Barbarian is just as good in the same role, do you think the non-lawful requirement for them has the same purpose?Actually isn't an optimized barbarian outright better in most ways compared to an optimized paladin due to more HP, DR X/- starting from level 2 and the ability to get pounce?
They're different.
The Barb does NOT have more HP then the paladin, because the paladin has Lay on hands - lots of them. That's a huge virtual hit point boost. And better yet, the paladin can use it on others.
THe barb's natural DR x/- isn't any better then adamantine armor until level 15, at which point the Paladin is going to get dr 10/evil, which is a LOT of DR. You have to double the barb's DR for it to be truly significant...it gets less relevant as levels go up and dmg/attack increases much faster then DR.
The ability to Pounce is a tremendous ability. So is the Paladin's ability to cast Holy Sword and auto-crit evil foes, which combined with a smite is basically the equal of a full attack.
Come and Get Me is also hugely dangerous. However, it has nothing on the threat of a Paladin standing there with a full attack and Smiting away at BBEG.
The paladin also has better defenses via immunities, and divine grace matches up against Superstition (the other big reason barbs can rock). The biggest factor, however, is Paladins have much better recovery options then Barbs do, from LOH & mercies to spells. A Barb is highly unlikely to win a damage contest with a smiting paladin, either.
The barb is more motile, and definitely has anti-magic sewn up. Except for the paladin's ability to cast spells somewhat unevening the playfield, I'd call them fairly equal overall. THe barb will be better in rote combat, about equal if the paladin uses sword bond, and inferior when matched to smiting.
They are both excellent classes. The barb is probably a little better at low levels, but the paladin just gets more and more awesome as time goes by.
===Aelryinth
It's still bizarre to me that you think playing Lawful Good is so much of an unbearable challenge that it's a balancing factor for the Paladin to discourage "powergamers" from taking it. Putting aside the fact that I and many other "powergamers" are fully capable of playing LG even when we're not required to do so, the PF Barbarian is just as good in the same role, do you think the non-lawful requirement for them has the same purpose?
Barbs aren't prevented from being lawful. They lose the ability to rage, that's all. Which is a strong feature of the class, no doubt, but it's not everything. I'm not sure...do rage powers still work if you can't actually rage?
All other class abilities actually do stay in effect.They also have no code.
It's playing against archetype, is all, and meant to discourage you from doing so. Barbs are supposed to be 'wild' to a degree, after all. I guess it was their way of encouraging you to stay with the flavor of the class, without making it outright impossible.
And as you noted, they then splatbooked all sorts of alternate versions of rage for the Lawful types to get around the problem.
==Aelryinth
Rage powers are only active while you are raging, so not being able to rage as a Barbarian is essentially the same as losing all your class features. Oh boy, you have fast movement as a Lawful Barbarian. Very potent.
I find the idea of LG being more restrictive than CG especially in reference to paladins gets a chuckle from me.
Full disclosure: This is because I authored a CG "Paladin" class. My players like it quite a bit and we had an issue where the CG "paladin" fell due to depriving someone of their freedom because she hated the depraved nature of their actions.
Just to be clear this was all working hand in glove with the player and was enjoyed by all. When she said (I paraphrase due to memory) "No More! I cannot slay you but I can lock you here in this place to protect those you would defile." and then collapsed a demi-plane on its creator everyone got misty and she fell like a stone. Could not even get her powers back as she was in no way repentant.
Never had a LG paladin fall though, most of my players find them enjoyable so I have seen a few, but *Shrug*. This may just be an artifact of my table.
See, this is why CG paladins make no sense.
Punishing people for doing evil is not wrong, nor is it lawful. Imprisoniing people or giving them indentured servitude for doing wrong is NOT lawful behavior. It's an alternative to killing them.
Your CG paladin basically shouldn't be able to kill anyone, because then he's depriving them of their right to live their life as they see fit - Evil! Lawful! Judgmental! No, can't do it!
A CG paladin should have no problem hauling an Evil person who committed crimes back to a jail and throwing them in there as punishment...as opposed to ONLY having the option of slaughtering them or letting them walk.
It's when people are enslaved, imprisoned wrongly, forced into servitude by oppressive powers - THAT is when Freedom is being threatened, and the CG paladin should go off on them. Enslaving the innocent or blameless should make him fall, but imprisoning a true felon?
I mean, sheesh, by that standard, convicted murderers in prison should be broken out by the CG paladin because they are deprived of their freedom.
So, based on what you just wrote, your code is a sham. You basically forced your paladin into the role of either killing people or letting them walk free, because they cannot honorably punish them for their deeds any other way.
And that's why CG paladins make me roll my eyes. Your CG paladin, in effect, built a wall to keep out a bad guy, and you made them fall for it.
Bleh. We can't build walls! Deprives people of the right to walk where they want!
==Aelryinth
Rage powers are only active while you are raging, so not being able to rage as a Barbarian is essentially the same as losing all your class features. Oh boy, you have fast movement as a Lawful Barbarian. Very potent.
Superstition is active while you aren't raging, isn't it?
Hey, you also get to keep DR and uncanny dodge, don't forget! :) And trap sense, that's powerful! It's like...you're a fighter with fewer feats...or something.
==Aelryinth
Rage powers are only active while you are raging, so not being able to rage as a Barbarian is essentially the same as losing all your class features. Oh boy, you have fast movement as a Lawful Barbarian. Very potent.Superstition is active while you aren't raging, isn't it?
Hey, you also get to keep DR and uncanny dodge, don't forget! :) And trap sense, that's powerful! It's like...you're a fighter with fewer feats...or something.
==Aelryinth
It's... debatable. There is a general rule that rage powers are only active while raging but Superstition is worded weirdly so that it sounds like there are separate states for when you are and are not raging, and the save bonus applies to both. That's one thing that really needs a clarification from the FAQ squad.
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Rage powers are only active while you are raging, so not being able to rage as a Barbarian is essentially the same as losing all your class features. Oh boy, you have fast movement as a Lawful Barbarian. Very potent.Superstition is active while you aren't raging, isn't it?
Hey, you also get to keep DR and uncanny dodge, don't forget! :) And trap sense, that's powerful! It's like...you're a fighter with fewer feats...or something.
==Aelryinth
"Rage Powers (Ex): As a barbarian gains levels, she learns to use her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains a rage power. She gains another rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers require the barbarian to take an action first. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once."
I said optimized barbarian. An optimized barbarian has the invulnerable rager archetype which gets rid of uncanny dodge and trap sense for a ton of DR and a bit of energy resistance. They don't have DR 3/- by level 15, they have DR 7/-, possibly more, and fire or cold resistance 5.
...That said on second thought a survival optimized paladin does have more HP. Fey Foundling's a powerful feat.
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I find the idea of LG being more restrictive than CG especially in reference to paladins gets a chuckle from me.
Full disclosure: This is because I authored a CG "Paladin" class. My players like it quite a bit and we had an issue where the CG "paladin" fell due to depriving someone of their freedom because she hated the depraved nature of their actions.
Just to be clear this was all working hand in glove with the player and was enjoyed by all. When she said (I paraphrase due to memory) "No More! I cannot slay you but I can lock you here in this place to protect those you would defile." and then collapsed a demi-plane on its creator everyone got misty and she fell like a stone. Could not even get her powers back as she was in no way repentant.
Never had a LG paladin fall though, most of my players find them enjoyable so I have seen a few, but *Shrug*. This may just be an artifact of my table.
See, this is why CG paladins make no sense.
See, this is why CG paladins make no sense.
Punishing people for doing evil is not wrong, nor is it lawful. Imprisoniing people or giving them indentured servitude for doing wrong is NOT lawful behavior. It's an alternative to killing them.
Your CG paladin basically shouldn't be able to kill anyone, because then he's depriving them of their right to live their life as they see fit - Evil! Lawful! Judgmental! No, can't do it!
A CG paladin should have no problem hauling an Evil person who committed crimes back to a jail and throwing them in there as punishment...as opposed to ONLY having the option of slaughtering them or letting them walk.
It's when people are enslaved, imprisoned wrongly, forced into servitude by oppressive powers - THAT is when Freedom is being threatened, and the CG paladin should go off on them. Enslaving the innocent or blameless should make him fall, but imprisoning a true felon?
I mean, sheesh, by that standard, convicted murderers in prison should be broken out by the CG paladin because they are deprived of their freedom.
So, based on what you just wrote, your code is a sham. You basically forced your paladin into the role of either killing people or letting them walk free, because they cannot honorably punish them for their deeds any other way.
And that's why CG paladins make me roll my eyes. Your CG paladin, in effect, built a wall to keep out a bad guy, and you made them fall for it.
Bleh. We can't build walls! Deprives people of the right to walk where they want!
==Aelryinth
Saying things like "Sham" "sheesh" "bleh" seems dismissive and close-minded to me.
I have been trying to read your posts with a grain of salt but honestly you come across as aggressive and having already decided what is going on.
If you cannot respond to others posts in a calm manner and have a dialogue perhaps take a break and come back when you are more ready to examine this subjective topic rooted in a game?
Saying that, you should perhaps give others some slack.
Lets say the following
1.) Character is CG.
2.) Character is a CG paladin variant.
3.) One of the lines in the code for this character is
"Remember the sanctity of choice and oppose those who would take it from another."
4.) Character destroys a demi-plane with a BBEG in it knowing that in doing so the BBEG will be trapped forever outside time and space. Locked away from the ability to grow, choose, change, and improve, but undying.
That is pretty cut and dry in my opinion, but if you find it ridiculous well we will have to agree to disagree.
Also, the race the paladin came from did not build walled cities or enclosures for the reason you sarcastically stated. Only building what was needed to protect themselves from the environment, mostly via natural holes in large trees or rocks.
The same paladin also did free a whole bunch of criminals when overthrowing an unjust government. She met in fair combat those who would not repent their evil and agree to do good.
The way her race and code saw things, if she opposed someone she could actively combat them but once she had control of them via unconsciousness or subdual it would be wrong to imprison them, period.
In short she could oppose their choice with one of her own, but she could not force or dictate the way they made choices.
Hope this helps you understand.
Pssh. Bloody immunity to so much stuff is powerful.
Being able to declare a smite and then Power Attack and STILL have a positive TH modifier is powerful.
And of course, some of their spells are just, wow, niiiice.
And of course, being able to give away a smite to every single one of your comrades to wipe the BBEG is probably the most devastating group melee buff in the game.
==Aelryinth
What her race considers fair is not what CG considers Fair.
Alignments are above the petty concerns of mortals.
Let me rephrase something you wrote.
4.) Character destroys a demi-plane with a BBEG in it knowing that in doing so the BBEG will be trapped forever outside time and space. Locked away from the ability to grow, choose, change, and improve, but undying.
to
Character destroys a demiplane with a BBEG in it, knowing that doing so will kill them and condemn them forever to an eternal life of torment in the lower planes, never able to grow in power or escape from the fate they made for themselves.
------------------------------------
She was being MERCIFUL. And you made her Fall for it. Being Imprisoned so that you can't wreak harm on others is Just Punishment, not a freaking Sin.
Imprisoning instead of slaughter is MERCY. And your code basically made her a merciless butcher. Be Good or I'll Kill You. You know what that is called in paladin arguments? Lawful Stupid.
That is what you've written and described to us. It is a TRAVESTY of the CG alignment.
So, no, I'm not taking it seriously as an argument, and I'm dismissing it. You hit all my 'stupid paladin rules' buttons, from a crappy code to a DM making the paladin Fall for doing the Right Thing, and Lawful Stupid behavior from the player.
So, eesh.
==Aelryinth
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That is one of the best demostrations of "badwrongfun" I have ever seen. I may disagree with that opinion, Aelryinth, but you can do better than that.
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Aelryinth,
I have tried to be reasonable and cordial. You are being aggressive and dismissive along with at least to me seeming to rant.
Since you refuse to take a break and cool down, I am placing you on ignore for now.
I admit I usually enjoy your posts, but I need some time so that I do not have to write huge annoyed posts and then delete them so I do not descend to your level.
I know you probably do not care, however I am telling you as a courtesy so you do not think I simply disappeared.
Happy gaming, maybe I will see you later.
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The only way you could have a world where paladins are universally trusted is to add a way for them to be unerringly identified. Which does not actually exist in the game. If it's the kind of game you want, go for it.
I actually kind of like the idea of separating out the assumed paladin trust and giving it to anyone who makes appropriate sacred vows - which would also give you some form of unfalsifiable magical badge verifying your status. The main benefit is to allow other classes to get a similar RP benefit if they accept the RP restrictions - the secondary benefit is that it's easier to develop paladins with more customized codes without necessarily screwing over the traditional type that could benefit from this kind of trust.
It's worth noting, though, that just because paladins can't lie doesn't mean they can't be fooled - you can't be sure that what a paladin says is true, just that they believe that what they say is true.
There's actually a FR book where the 'paladins can do no wrong' trope is displayed to the Lawful Stupidest extent I've ever seen - Thorn Keep.
Not only is the spokesman for the paladin order a Fallen traitor, the paladin 'hero' goes around killing innocents and anyone the guy calls evil, because fellow paladin. He can't even be 'slowed down' by Khelben Arunsun because he'd be interferring with a 'goodly knight'.
It's one of the worst cases of paladin writing I've ever seen, and I regretted buying the book.
But yeah, Kirth has a great point - there is no 100% way of identifying a paladin, only word and belief. And maybe a really high Sense Motive check.
Note that it is completely possible for a spellcaster to swap an alignment aura to fool aura readers. It's a key tactic used in the first book about that Pharasman agent...the bad guy steals the innocent's aura and subs his own on her. Cue arrest the innocent party when the Good Priest reads her aura, not bothering to ascertain if the spell is being misdirected.
==Aelryinth
Hang on, which spell swaps auras? I know misdirection is a thing but that just copies someone or something's aura and makes yours look like it.
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It's worth noting, though, that just because paladins can't lie doesn't mean they can't be fooled - you can't be sure that what a paladin says is true, just that they believe that what they say is true.
There was a quote somewhere about the most dangerous men being the ones who are absolutely convinced they are in the right.
Hang on, which spell swaps auras? I know misdirection is a thing but that just copies someone or something's aura and makes yours look like it.
I believe he cast the spell on her so she would take on his aura. They never called out the mechanics on how he did it.
You could also put something with a strong Evil aura on someone, which if they were low level would completely override their own aura and cause a misread.
==Aelryinth
That is one of the best demonstrations of "badwrongfun" I have ever seen. I may disagree with that opinion, Aelryinth, but you can do better than that.
I'm sorry.
But he pushed ALL my poor play of paladins buttons.
Using that example as a good reason to play a CG paladin...just, ugh. It couldn't have been much worse, on all levels. It's one of the worse examples of Lawful Stupid I've seen on the DM and player levels, like, ever.
Seriously: You can't trap a depraved bastard in a prison of his own making, giving him his own justified comeuppance, without Falling? magnificent, ironic giving the bastard what's coming to him - and you punish the paladin?!?
You MUST release even guilty prisoners, and if they don't give up Evil, you have to then slaughter them? CONVERT OR DIE, SCUM?!?
This is a CG Paladin?
:P
==Aelryinth
It's worth noting, though, that just because paladins can't lie doesn't mean they can't be fooled - you can't be sure that what a paladin says is true, just that they believe that what they say is true.There was a quote somewhere about the most dangerous men being the ones who are absolutely convinced they are in the right.
or, The Road to Hell is paved...
==Aelryinth
Ah yes, Torag. The perfect deity for your A%*#&+! Murderhobo Paladin.
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Using that example as a good reason to play a CG paladin...just, ugh. It couldn't have been much worse, on all levels. It's one of the worse examples of Lawful Stupid I've seen on the DM and player levels, like, ever.
Seriously: You can't trap a depraved bastard in a prison of his own making, giving him his own justified comeuppance, without Falling? magnificent, ironic giving the bastard what's coming to him - and you punish the paladin?!?
You MUST release even guilty prisoners, and if they don't give up Evil, you have to then slaughter them? CONVERT OR DIE, SCUM?!?
Interestingly, I have some of the same reactions to what some people require of classic paladins.
You can't use sleeping poison even if it would save a life?
You can't tell a lie ever, or even mislead someone, even if it's the Nazis looking for Jewish children hiding in your attic? Sorry kids, we're making a heroic last stand here...
Interestingly, I have some of the same reactions to what some people require of classic paladins.
You can't use sleeping poison even if it would save a life?
You can't tell a lie ever, or even mislead someone, even if it's the Nazis looking for Jewish children hiding in your attic? Sorry kids, we're making a heroic last stand here...
Depends whether there is another way
{. . .}
As to it being political suicide?
That depends upon where you are. One of the Pathfinder Tales Web Tales (Blood Crimes -- I miss those . . .) is set in Geb, and starts with a scene of the execution of a Paladin of Iomedae.
Oh indeed, it would be, any opponent you had would use that as so much ammunition. Especially since we can assume the Paladin in question is proven to be a Paladin before the person runs again.
Example:
"Sheriff Curthal imprisoned Sir Dunny Paladin of Sarenrae for stopping a vile cultist. Curthal claims he was just doing his job. Since when is it the job of the Sheriff to protect murderous cultists?
Vote Reginald Tinder for Sheriff."
"Sheriff Curthal claimed he didn't know Dunny was a Paladin and that the cultist was evil. Can we afford a Sheriff who can't tell the good guys from the bad?
Vote Reginald Tinder for Sheriff."
"Paladin Dunny saved us from a demented murderer and Sheriff Curthal didn't believe him. If Sheriff Curthal can't tell when a Paladin is speaking the truth, do you want to defend yourself when he falsely accuses you of a crime?
Vote Reginald Tinder for Sheriff."
"Now I want to know what Reginald Tinder was doing back at that radical Sarenite party back in 4661 . . . We haven't gotten to the bottom of this yet. And Reginald Tinder still hasn't answered questions about his birth certificate . . . Can we trust that he is really an Andoren citizen? And then . . . AND THEN . . . Remember that Reginald Tinder spent several years growing up in school in Jalmeray -- the implications of this could be !
Reginald Tinder: He's not one of us!"
Rules are rules , but then again , one would expect the GM wouldnt put you in a situation where it is fall or fall.
If it did happen , then well , what hero wouldnt sacrifice themselves to protect others right?
Depends whether there is another wayInterestingly, I have some of the same reactions to what some people require of classic paladins.
You can't use sleeping poison even if it would save a life?
You can't tell a lie ever, or even mislead someone, even if it's the Nazis looking for Jewish children hiding in your attic? Sorry kids, we're making a heroic last stand here...
Nothing says they can't mislead someone, draw attention elsewhere, or answer around the question. They don't have obligations to allow the Code to be used to further the Cause of Evil - that is against the very spirit of the Code.
Remember, it's about acting with honor for those instances. If you're trying to save a life with sleeping poison, NOT trying to take one...that's acting with honor and good intentions, and totally in the spirit of the Code. If you're using poison because you're lazy and its the easy solution, that's not.
You can even tell white lies, if doing otherwise would hurt the target for no good reason. And of course, you can lie boldly and loudly so that everyone knows you are lying, which is a form of truth all its own.
Remember the Code is spirit as well as letter! It's the LN and LE folks who want to argue its all letter and easy to subvert!
==Aelryinth
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I appreciate that interpretation. I have, however, seen people argue that if given a choice between obeying the letter and the spirit of the law, the paladin should choose the letter. It makes me very uncomfortable, and it certainly doesn't encourage me to trust or respect such a paladin.
I've also seen some people describe holding the spirit of the law as more important than the letter as being a Chaotic trait.
I hope this illustrates why I think the issue with the Law-Chaos alignment restrictions is lack of consensus on what Law and Chaos actually means in terms of philosophy and behavior.
^In the absence of a release from the current odd situation of all Paladins being Lawful Good regardless of associated deity, I would have to say that it has to depend upon the particular Paladin in more subtle ways:
Most Paladins: Choice between ebeying the letter or the spirit of the law depends upon how just the law is in the first place, but can go with the spirit of the law in a lot of cases.
Oath Against Chaos Paladins, Paladins of Abadar, and maybe Paladins of Irori: The letter of the law is paramount, as long as it does not violate the Paladin's (modified) Code.
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Just checked again,
Torag’s Paladin CodePaladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
• My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
• I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
• I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
• Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
That is indeed the ADDITIONAL code specific to Torag. A Paladin of Torag must respect both this code and the CRB code. And the two codes do not contradict each other.
^In the absence of a release from the current odd situation of all Paladins being Lawful Good regardless of associated deity, I would have to say that it has to depend upon the particular Paladin in more subtle ways:
Most Paladins: Choice between ebeying the letter or the spirit of the law depends upon how just the law is in the first place, but can go with the spirit of the law in a lot of cases.
Oath Against Chaos Paladins, Paladins of Abadar, and maybe Paladins of Irori: The letter of the law is paramount, as long as it does not violate the Paladin's (modified) Code.
Paladins of Irori most certainly don't consider the letter of the law paramount because they believe everyone has their own path to perfection and what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander. Despite being neutral Irori is probably the most individualistic of the Lawful deities.
Irori is likely intended to represent the self-discipline interpretation of Lawful, especially since his Paladins are expected to fabricate their own codes.
Granted, "I have my own code of honor that I abide by strictly but have no intention of enforcing it on others" sounds like a pretty chaotic ideal to me but nobody will ever agree on what law and chaos mean.
Yes, Irori is an odd case. I wrote what I said above based upon his official alignment of Lawful Neutral, but from the writings on him, he seems a bit short of fully Lawful and possibly a bit above the Neutral line on the Good/Evil axis. Wonder who he has for Lawful Evil worshippers? (In contrast, for Abadar, the answer to that last question is pretty obvious, and reconciling Abadar with Good is the hard part.)
Nah, good Abadar worshipers are easy to find; he blesses honest, hard-working merchants with security and peace of mind. If there's a Paladin of Abadar in the area you know that the city and trade routes are well-protected from those who would take your wares unjustly. I played a Paladin of Abadar in an undead campaign who's first priority was cleansing the roads so people could get in and out of the city freely.
For Irori's Lawful Evil followers... You cannot choose how others live their life, but the path to perfection is a difficult one and so many people are intent on getting in your way. If they don't grasp the importance of your goals, then so be it.
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My favourite part of the thread is when paladins somehow became totally top-tier super broken with an alignment restriction/code to keep them balanced. It's like we're all the way back in ad&d again!
My second favourite part is how therefore everyone who disagrees and would like a CG paladin is a powergamer.
My favourite part of the thread is when paladins somehow became totally top-tier super broken with an alignment restriction/code to keep them balanced. It's like we're all the way back in ad&d again!
My second favourite part is how therefore everyone who disagrees and would like a CG paladin is a powergamer.
You know Bards are weaker in Pathfinder than they were in previous editions because the alignment restrictions were removed. Paizo had to nerf the Bard to compensate for that. Logic!
^Huh? Pathfinder Bards look pretty good to me (and it seems to be pretty popular with people voting with their feet in choosing what to play in PbPs), and look like they advanced along with most of the other classes (for base classes, Rogue seems to have gotten kind of the short straw in that department; for prestige classes, Loremaster seems to have gotten kind of the short straw).
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^Huh? Pathfinder Bards look pretty good to me (and it seems to be pretty popular with people voting with their feet in choosing what to play in PbPs), and look like they advanced along with most of the other classes (for base classes, Rogue seems to have gotten kind of the short straw in that department; for prestige classes, Loremaster seems to have gotten kind of the short straw).
No, that's... that's the joke. Pathfinder Bards are fantastic, ergo alignment restrictions have nothing to do with how good a class is. I really thought I made that bit of sarcasm pretty clear, hrm.