If I remember correctly a paladin does not need to follow a LG God, the God just needs to be within two alignment steps from LG.
One thing that bugged me was the inability to play a Paladin of pharasma with the undead scourge archetype. Though I think I got it house ruled by the gm due to the archetype.
One alignment step, not 2.
Thus, LN or NG. TN, LE and CG are out.
==Aelryinth
If you think it's a problem, just jettison the alignment restrictions. They serve very little purpose in game anyway; and as this thread is devolving into shows: more a source of arguments than anything else.
Threads only show the opinions of people who are more argumentative than average. Taking them as a sign of general trends is narrow-minded at best, and dangerously misguided at worst.
If you think it's a problem, just jettison the alignment restrictions. They serve very little purpose in game anyway; and as this thread is devolving into shows: more a source of arguments than anything else.Threads only show the opinions of people who are more argumentative than average. Taking them as a sign of general trends is narrow-minded at best, and dangerously misguided at worst.
Are people who aren't argumentative likely to care all that much?
Yeah, but GUARDIAN, Quark.
Guardians stay in one place and, you know, defend stuff. Church Guardians means they're like door guards for churches.
I picture Chaotics getting all emotional and heading on out to smite the enemy, not 'guards'. If they'd said 'Church Champions' in the descriptive text, I wouldn't have the issue.
So I don't see them as dandy's or cavaliers. I personally just think they got the flavor wrong.
==Aelryinth
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You keep saying chaotic characters get emotional but honestly every paladin I've seen, PC or NPC, is the most emotional of the party and the one that gets the most upset at villains. Hell one charged a cleric despite him stunning the guy on the evil scan and got power word blind for his troubles.
Lawful characters tend to be logical.
Chaotic characters tend to be emotional.
Paizo follows this trope. Lawful characters can't rage because they don't get emotional enough, and barbs are the trademark chaotic fighters.
Now, being zealous and fearless, paladins might be impulsive (high Cha and low Wis, I'm looking at you), but that doesn't mean they are as emotionally all over the place as chaotics are.
==Aelryinth
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Lawful characters tend to be logical.
Chaotic characters tend to be emotional.Paizo follows this trope. Lawful characters can't rage because they don't get emotional enough, and barbs are the trademark chaotic fighters.
Now, being zealous and fearless, paladins might be impulsive (high Cha and low Wis, I'm looking at you), but that doesn't mean they are as emotionally all over the place as chaotics are.
==Aelryinth
But it doesn't mean they're the case all the time. In fact the emotion/logic seems a bit evenly spread among the choas/law characters from my experience. Then again I play with a pretty small sample size so I don't deal with the jerk CN players who want to play CE in reality.
As a note, lawful characters can rage. Bloodragers can be any alignment and enter bloodrage.
+1 on that. Really, if something needs to have an alignment restriction that is independent of matching the alignment of an associated deity or philosophy, it should probably be a prestige class, like Hellknight (both types), or maybe even a Plethora of Prestige Classes. In terms of flavor, we already have a precedent with the spell Order's Wrath. Going along these lines, it would not be unreasonable to have a Hellknight Shock Trooper archetype of Barbarian, trained (often starting from captured and broken Barbarians of other types) to channel their Rage along the strictures dedicated by their Hellknight Order, in a process that recapitulates on a small scale the breaking of fallen Angels and fallen Good mortal souls to make Erinyes.
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Lawful characters tend to be logical.
Chaotic characters tend to be emotional.Paizo follows this trope. Lawful characters can't rage because they don't get emotional enough, and barbs are the trademark chaotic fighters.
...Yeah none of this is actually a thing
Lawful characters have a tendency to believe they're being logical, even when they're not. You think that Lawful Evil fascist dictator is being driven by pure rationality?
zeal is directed emotion. Rage is unconstrained and uncontrolled emotion. Chaotics tend to judge things on an emotional level, it's one of the points that make them chaotics. Lawful types tend to be rational and emotion influences their decisions less.
LE types tend to be supremely rational and extremely unemotional ('cold') in their decision making process. Having no regard for life or empathy is a hallmark of the alignment. Their ego, pride and inflated sense of self-worth don't help...When they do have emotions, they tend to all be negative.
That's the trope and the alignment. A paladin who is always thinking with his emotions instead of his Code is probably acting chaotically. The paladin will always restrain his emotions and let his Code prevail. The barb will just run free.
I said rage, not bloodrage. :) Lawful barbs can't rage.
==Aelryinth
Those have quietly been thrown out, as well. CG deities are not going to have Paladin followers. Bring that detail to James Jacobs' attention, and he's going to sigh over the editors letting something else slip past...As a matter of fact, I'm sure it was brought up on his thread before, along with N undead from Juju oracles and other continuity errors.
===Aelryinth
Have they? Where/when? Not being argumentative, I'm just curious.
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LE types tend to be supremely rational and extremely unemotional ('cold') in their decision making process. Having no regard for life or empathy is a hallmark of the alignment. Their ego, pride and inflated sense of self-worth don't help...When they do have emotions, they tend to all be negative.
Lawful Evil types tend to have a lot of pride, whether in their country or themselves. They believe that if everyone could just be made to think exactly the way they do then everything would be better. It's basically impossible to use rational debate to convince an LE to change their position because they're so convinced that they must be right.
agree with Quark! He doesn't have the discipline yet to be LE. He's a wannabe.
Note that the Rage Subdomain grants Rage as an SU power - i.e. you're casting magic on yourself to make yourself able to rage. It's no different from any other spell/magical effect that way. So, Lawfuls actually have to rely on magic to make them able to rage! Heh!
Barb rage is Ex and comes completely from within. The 'lawfuls can't rage trope' is also a lot older then splatbook expansions :).
==Aelryinth
Have they? Where/when? Not being argumentative, I'm just curious.
Those have quietly been thrown out, as well. CG deities are not going to have Paladin followers. Bring that detail to James Jacobs' attention, and he's going to sigh over the editors letting something else slip past...As a matter of fact, I'm sure it was brought up on his thread before, along with N undead from Juju oracles and other continuity errors.
===Aelryinth
His thread is THOUSANDS of pages long.
I know the Paladins of Asmodeus question was asked, because I was the one who asked it, and he bluntly said it's not canon.
The N juju undead got revised when the archetype was republished. In golarion, undead are evil.
And they keep making more continuity errors as the world gets bigger.
they actually hired a person whose only job now is to keep continuity straight, so it IS a full time position.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, but GUARDIAN, Quark.
Guardians stay in one place and, you know, defend stuff. Church Guardians means they're like door guards for churches.
I picture Chaotics getting all emotional and heading on out to smite the enemy, not 'guards'. If they'd said 'Church Champions' in the descriptive text, I wouldn't have the issue.
So I don't see them as dandy's or cavaliers. I personally just think they got the flavor wrong.
==Aelryinth
Maybe they guard pilgrims on their pilgrimage?
Maybe the church is fully itinerant?
Maybe, being cavalier-like, the best defense is a vigorous offense?
See, it still works! :p
It's possible that this works better in Golarion than in the original setting -- maybe they are actually guardians of the castle's beer supply. (Not that I agree with the characterization of Cayden Cailean as Good, but that's the Golarion canon.)
* * * * * * * *
Lawful is rule-bound, not necessarily logical. These are not the same thing (and the rules that Lawful things follow do not even have to be legal). This is just like the possibility (which is sometimes exercised, although usually with great efforts to cover it up) to program a computer to cook the books in a company's finances or to cook the results of an election.
In the Birthright setting, paladins of Cuiraécen, the Storm-Lord, were required to be Chaotic Good, and of course, in Unearthed Arcana, there were paladins for each of the four corner alignments, each with their own code.
Mongoose's Quintessential Paladin II had a long section on designing and balancing various alternative paladin codes, so at one point, I even designed a code for an NG paladin, which involved healing the sick, protecting the helpless, defending communities etc.
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Sure it's a weaker rage but it's still rage that a lawful character can use with nothing but themselves. ^w^
You want to make either of these classes lawful characters? I can, and will if challenged.
The new Insinuator Anti-Paladin thing...
I really like it, but is a strange archetype. It can be any evil alignment, and have a code that basically says "I must benefit for anything I do". Basically, everyday it calls an Outsider spirit that can be LE, NE or CE. The antipaladin must respect the "moral structures" of the outsider he uses that day, and gains a limited Smite accordingly; if he calls a LE spirit, can Smite Chaos. Of note that Insinuator lose the spells and gains extra fighter feats or skill focus, one every three levels.
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The local law can't question it. He's a Paladin. Arresting him would be political suicide.
This presumes that Paladins have big floating signs over their heads saying "I am a Paladin", or the equivalent. I'm not sure of the knowledge skill to tell a Paladin from, say, a Warpriest, but I doubt the average lawman would have it.
Plus, what makes you think it's political suicide to lock up a Paladin?
Ordinary people might hate Paladins with their holier-than-thou attitudes...
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The local law can't question it. He's a Paladin. Arresting him would be political suicide.This presumes that Paladins have big floating signs over their heads saying "I am a Paladin", or the equivalent. I'm not sure of the knowledge skill to tell a Paladin from, say, a Warpriest, but I doubt the average lawman would have it.
This works the other way too, have a half-decent bluff mod and a sword and you can easily fool law enforcement that doesn't have magic into believing that you're a paladin. And if they have the magic to tell you're a paladin they probably have touch of truthtelling available to them, which means that they can tell you are innocent.
Really if you want the ability to not be framed, play an enchanter and charm the guards. 9 times out of 10 they have a s$@#ty will save and no ranks in spellcraft.
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Wait ... there is a spell that tells you the class of the target?
I must have missed that one.
Heh i will agree that since you usually dont know a paladin is a paladin , then people have no reason to stop the arrest or to trust you , atleast the paladin in said case would be arrested until he could be confirmed to be a paladin , which depending on the city could take hours or weeks to get in touch with the order of said god.
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Wait ... there is a spell that tells you the class of the target?
There's no detect class but there is Detect Good and paladins have very strong auras for their levels. However the same is said for clerics of good deities as well so Touch of Truthtelling is the better spell for proving innocence.
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Indeed, a chaotic neutral cleric who worships a chaotic good deity has a 'good' aura. And we all know how murderous the average chaotic neutral PC is...
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The only problem with opening up the Alignments is this:
The no true Scottsman Clause.
As it is, the LG Paladin has one HUGE advantage.
They can't lie. They are valorous. That makes them VERY scary.
If a Paladin is found in a room with a dead human and no murder weapon. If the Paladin says that the man attacked him with a sword that turned into a snake and slithered away...
The local law can't question it. He's a Paladin. Arresting him would be political suicide.
They don't need evidence, they are Paladins.
Once you open it up to wider restrictions then you lose that.
A Paladin can't lie, but she can be completely f+$%ing nuts. I would detain this Paladin until evidence is found to back up her claim.
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Indeed, a chaotic neutral cleric who worships a chaotic good deity has a 'good' aura. And we all know how murderous the average chaotic neutral PC is in the hands of THAT GUY
Seriously people, if someone is playing CN like CE at your table, kick them out or force them to retire their character. CN is a great alignment when it's not being abused by trolls.
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Wait ... there is a spell that tells you the class of the target?There's no detect class but there is Detect Good and paladins have very strong auras for their levels. However the same is said for clerics of good deities as well so Touch of Truthtelling is the better spell for proving innocence.
True , but there are spells to conceal or change your alignment to detection , while true that truth spell is great.
Indeed, a chaotic neutral cleric who worships a chaotic good deity has a 'good' aura. And we all know how murderous the average chaotic neutral PC is in the hands of THAT GUYSeriously people, if someone is playing CN like CE at your table, kick them out or force them to retire their character. CN is a great alignment when it's not being abused by trolls.
Heh indeed , most of my PCs start CN , but end up on CG in no time actually lols.
Back when i was younger being evil was so much easier.
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Note that the Rage Subdomain grants Rage as an SU power - i.e. you're casting magic on yourself to make yourself able to rage. It's no different from any other spell/magical effect that way. So, Lawfuls actually have to rely on magic to make them able to rage! Heh!
Barb rage is Ex and comes completely from within. The 'lawfuls can't rage trope' is also a lot older then splatbook expansions :).
You're moving the goalposts from "rage" to "(Ex) Rage." An example of which HyperMissingno has already provided.
The fact that the "nonlawful rage" concept is older doesn't make it valid. In fact, you could describe the splatbooks and ACG as progress away from the outdated, inherited assumption that rage is lawful.
Or, you could interpret it as Powergamers want the shinies of other classes without having to jump through alignment/other hoops! (Which is basically what splatbooks have been doing for all classes).
Seeing as this is a non-LG paladin thread, after all. :)
Wow, pulling BIRTHRIGHT out of the box. That takes me back. How'd you happen to remember that one? Horus' CG Paladins I vaguely remember from FR, but Birthright?
==Aelryinth
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It's still bizarre to me that you think playing Lawful Good is so much of an unbearable challenge that it's a balancing factor for the Paladin to discourage "powergamers" from taking it. Putting aside the fact that I and many other "powergamers" are fully capable of playing LG even when we're not required to do so, the PF Barbarian is just as good in the same role, do you think the non-lawful requirement for them has the same purpose?
It's still bizarre to me that you think playing Lawful Good is so much of an unbearable challenge that it's a balancing factor for the Paladin to discourage "powergamers" from taking it. Putting aside the fact that I and many other "powergamers" are fully capable of playing LG even when we're not required to do so, the PF Barbarian is just as good in the same role, do you think the non-lawful requirement for them has the same purpose?
Actually isn't an optimized barbarian outright better in most ways compared to an optimized paladin due to more HP, DR X/- starting from level 2 and the ability to get pounce?
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I find the idea of LG being more restrictive than CG especially in reference to paladins gets a chuckle from me.
Full disclosure: This is because I authored a CG "Paladin" class. My players like it quite a bit and we had an issue where the CG "paladin" fell due to depriving someone of their freedom because she hated the depraved nature of their actions.
Just to be clear this was all working hand in glove with the player and was enjoyed by all. When she said (I paraphrase due to memory) "No More! I cannot slay you but I can lock you here in this place to protect those you would defile." and then collapsed a demi-plane on its creator everyone got misty and she fell like a stone. Could not even get her powers back as she was in no way repentant.
Never had a LG paladin fall though, most of my players find them enjoyable so I have seen a few, but *Shrug*. This may just be an artifact of my table.
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There are plenty of paladins that would fail any specific test. They trade away certain auras and abilities, but are still paladins.
The only way you could have a world where paladins are universally trusted is to add a way for them to be unerringly identified. Which does not actually exist in the game. If it's the kind of game you want, go for it.
It would be rare that people would hate Paladins. First off, the Lore pretty much doesn't support that they are. Secondly, they are Warriors who dedicate their lives to selfless acts of valor and ARE KNOWN to do so.
Yes, because every townsfolk is LG, NG, or CG and isn't part of a mob/mafia that's controlling the town. They also wouldn't have plans that a paladin could easily screw over, making said paladin a threat they should take out. Noooooope, no mortals out to get paladins at all!
Yes, because every townsfolk is LG, NG, or CG and isn't part of a mob/mafia that's controlling the town. They also wouldn't have plans that a paladin could easily screw over, making said paladin a threat they should take out. Noooooope, no mortals out to get paladins at all!
It would be rare that people would hate Paladins. First off, the Lore pretty much doesn't support that they are. Secondly, they are Warriors who dedicate their lives to selfless acts of valor and ARE KNOWN to do so.Not saying there wouldn't be *some* that would hate them or fear them but they'd be a minority.
Also anyone who openly voiced a fear of them would be met with suspicion. "Why? You got something to hide?"
In a world where little green monsters who eat people are a very real threat few "common people" would really hate an order of heroes who actively run toward danger and protect people.
Anyone that would openly voice fear would be suspected. That's why they'd do shady stuff in the shadows like smart villeins. Threaten the right loved ones, pull your strings, make sure you have law enforcement by it's balls, if the GM wants to put the party in jail he can put the party in jail, paladin or not.
Also most PCs run into danger headfirst. Do it enough times in the open and the townsfolk will love you even if you aren't a paladin. If they don't it's probably because you're a teifling or something.
Also anyone who openly voiced a fear of them would be met with suspicion. "Why? You got something to hide?"
I dunno about you buddy but that line of questioning is sounding real Lawful Evil to me
Like, I get what you're saying, but your Lawful Good Paladin who thinks he's above the law because he's a Paladin is pretty damn s+@%ty at being a Paladin.
Paladins are a pain in the back of a LOT of people , not a small minority , sure they get boons , but they also get major pains.
If there are cities where they could say "Im a paladin and this is what happened" , there are cities where being a paladin means being killed in the public square or making yourself target of major evils that stay within.
And ofc there is a vast majority of cities , where neither happen and both sides of the conflit evil/good must do more than just speak out a few words to win an argument after being found in a murder scene.
...You realize that including a clause that entitles you to trial by combat against the accuser is the GM specifically giving you an out to avoid being imprisoned, right?
Also anyone who openly voiced a fear of them would be met with suspicion. "Why? You got something to hide?"I dunno about you buddy but that line of questioning is sounding real Lawful Evil to me
Like, I get what you're saying, but your Lawful Good Paladin who thinks he's above the law because he's a Paladin is pretty damn s@&@ty at being a Paladin.
Who said it was the Paladin saying that? Also how is that Evil. A Paladin is a known paragon of good who cannot lie and cannot kill an innocent without losing their powers.
You start openly talking against them people are GOING to start wondering what's up.
A Paladin allowing other people to use his name to start witch hunts is even worse.
More like "Oh my god, this Paladin keeps going around accusing people without any evidence to back up his claims. What's his deal?!?"
If you think you can accuse someone without any evidence beyond your word you think you are above the law. And that is not a very Paladin way of thinking.