Someone told me this weekend that, unlike ability damage, if enough ability drain accumulated that it matched your ability score (any ability score, not just Constitution), you would die.
They also said that if you accumulated one less than full ability damage (so 9, if your score was 10, for example) and then gained 1 point of drain, you would die in that circumstance too.
I can't seem to find the rules text to support that though. Were they mistaken? Or am I just blind?
The only other example besides Con drain is losing all Strength to one of the Shadow family of monsters, which will kill you and then have you rise up as a Shadow yourself.
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Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
Only reducing your Constitution score to 0 causes death, unless a more specific ruling is called out for in the text (as is in the case of shadows).
This is reinforced by...
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Note that even ability damage to Constitution can cause death (not just Drain).
Someone told me this weekend that, unlike ability damage, if enough ability drain accumulated that it matched your ability score (any ability score, not just Constitution), you would die.
They also said that if you accumulated one less than full ability damage (so 9, if your score was 10, for example) and then gained 1 point of drain, you would die in that circumstance too.
I can't seem to find the rules text to support that though. Were they mistaken? Or am I just blind?
Con always. Otherwise only if the ability that inflicts the drain specifically says so. (like with the Shadow)
Nope, ability drain simply lowers the affected stat. Each stat has special text to explain what happens when your stat hits 0. Con's the only one that kills you. (Mental stats hitting 0 means you get to roll for insanity, if you're using those rules.)
A character with a Strength score of 0 is too weak to move in any way and is unconscious. Some creatures (such as incorporeal creatures) do not possess a Strength score and have no modifier at all to Strength-based skills or checks.
Look up Shadow (Undead) special attacks. They are the exception to that rule. In fact, that's the only damage a shadow does.
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As mentioned, other than Con, most ability drain/damage will cause helplessness or unconsciousness, not death. There are specific expceptions, but they are spelled out in the effect itself, like the mentioned Shadow's Strength damage. I have also experienced a Charisma damage/drain (don't remember which) which causxed death when Charisma hit zero, but it was specific to that isease.
Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).Only reducing your Constitution score to 0 causes death, unless a more specific ruling is called out for in the text (as is in the case of shadows).
How does that rule even apply when neither damage nor drain actually reduces your score?
How does that rule even apply when neither damage nor drain actually reduces your score?Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).Only reducing your Constitution score to 0 causes death, unless a more specific ruling is called out for in the text (as is in the case of shadows).
It applies by the text. Taking Constitution damage equal to or greater than your score kills you. Having your Constitution Drained to Zero also kills you. Note bolded text above.
I think Ravingdork's point is that ability damage does not actually affect score and therefore can not technically reduce a con score to 0.
I think Ravingdork's point is that ability damage does not actually affect score and therefore can not technically reduce a con score to 0.
And the point of the text is that it does not have to reduce the actual score to kill you. The rules say ability damage to Con will kill you, plain and simple.
Here is another question:
What happens when ability drain to another ability brings that ability to 0?
In the glossary under Ability Damage Penalty and Drain the CRB states:
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.
But....
In the Getting Started section of the CRB under Ability Scores, it gives an effect for what happens if each individual ability is brought to 0.
For example under Dexterity
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).
Intelligence is even weirder
A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose.
Comatose is never defined but I assume by that they meant unconscious.
Edit, this deserves its own thread. Link
Edit 2, Ravingdork, I always seem to bounce off your posts with even more questions.
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How does that rule even apply when neither damage nor drain actually reduces your score?Dead
When your character's current hit points drop to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score or lower, or if he succumbs to massive damage, he's dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).Only reducing your Constitution score to 0 causes death, unless a more specific ruling is called out for in the text (as is in the case of shadows).
Drain reduce your score.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score.
And constitution damage has a specific piece of text:
The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
it don't matter that the damage don't reduce you ability score. What matter is if the amount of damage you have suffered is equal or larger than your ability score.
You are slipping, Rav. ;-)
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Here is another question:
What happens when ability drain to another ability brings that ability to 0?In the glossary under Ability Damage Penalty and Drain the CRB states:
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.But....
In the Getting Started section of the CRB under Ability Scores, it gives an effect for what happens if each individual ability is brought to 0.
For example under Dexterity
A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).Intelligence is even weirder
A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose.Comatose is never defined but I assume by that they meant unconscious.
Edit, this deserves its own thread. Link
Edit 2, Ravingdork, I always seem to bounce off your posts with even more questions.
Damage don't change your ability score, so it never reach 0. so the getting started paragraph is irrelevant for it.
Hmmm careful reading would have helped me here.
It looks like drain gives you the special effect out of the getting started section and damage simply renders you unconscious.
Yes, seems I was misremembering about drain. Question still stands in part: How does Constitution damage kill you if it can't, by definition, reduce your score to 0?
Yes, seems I was misremembering about drain. Question still stands in part: How does Constitution damage kill you if it can't, by definition, reduce your score to 0?
If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
If you have 10 Con and you take 10 Con damage, you are dead. Strait RAW.
Where does it say your score is not reduced to 0? that language is only in the "Penalty" section not "Damage" or "Drain".
Yes, seems I was misremembering about drain. Question still stands in part: How does Constitution damage kill you if it can't, by definition, reduce your score to 0?
Reason 1) The rues say so. Specific (Con damage) trumps general (ability damage).
Reason 2) It is not that your Con drops to zero, it is that Con damage equals or exceeds your Con score. This is very much like non-lethal damage; it does not reduce your hit points, you drop when your non-lethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points.
If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
If your CON is 16 and you take 16 points of CON damage, you die.
Semantics. It doesn't really matter which direction drain works, Con drain will kill you anyway.
Colloquial English, not technical writing.
So the rules contradict each other in two places it would seem. Thankfully, it's pretty obvious which one is an error.
No, they don't contradict. It flat out says 'if you take damage equal to or greater'. It doesn't say anything about reducing your score to 0 (for damage).
So the rules contradict each other in two places it would seem. Thankfully, it's pretty obvious which one is an error.
It's not a contradiction; it's a matter of parsing.
A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution score to 0 (see Special Abilities).
One reading of this is: You can die from your Constitution score being reduced to 0 by 1. taking ability damage, or 2. suffering ability drain. If that's the intended reading, it's likely a holdover from OGL material when ability damage reduced the score in 3.5. In that case, yes there's a contradiction because the implication here is that ability damage reduces your score.
Otherwise, the reading is: You can die from 1. taking ability damage, or 2. suffering ability drain that reduces your Constitution score to 0. Then it directs you to Special Abilities to better understand how that works.
In the second reading, the reducing bit is restricted to drain. So there isn't necessarily a contradiction there.