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So, a bane causes damage to another character with its 'before you act' power. Is the damage caused to the other character 'before you act' damage, or just damage?
Example situation in WotR:
Character A encounters Dominion Scientist. Dominion Scientist's 'before you act' power deals 2 force damage to each character. Can Character B use Ring of Forcefangs ('Recharge to reduce damage dealt to you before or after you act to 0') to reduce that damage?
So basically, the 'before you act' step is shared by all players, with all players being in a 'before you act' step, even though it's not their encounter?
It's a bit confusing since usually 'you' refers to a single character (eg. 'your combat check' or 'you are dealt 1 damage'), but in here 'before you act' affects more than just one character.
This is how I played it though, so good to know I played it correctly.
Thanks.
I question this. The damage isn't being dealt to player B before he/she acts. It is being dealt to player B before player A acts.
Even though every player can be affected by the before you act step of the player encountering a card, only the player encountering the card has a before you act step.
I would play that player B can't use the Ring of Forcefangs to reduce the damage.
Good one.
I agree with elcoderdude that this is questionable. Waiting for an official clarification.
Multiple opinions, interesting. :)
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Actually I missed the "another character"
I'm not actually sure how I'd rule on that. I'd probably agree that "before you act" isn't happening for people outside the encounter, but at the same time I feel like they meant "during that step".
I'd agree with Elcoderdude and Frencois in its current wording, but with the caveat that I think it needs a rewording to specify damage dealt during that step, regardless of who is in the encounter, so the ring would work in this situation.
I wouldn't be surprised either way though and think it works find regardless.
I question this. The damage isn't being dealt to player B before he/she acts. It is being dealt to player B before player A acts.
Even though every player can be affected by the before you act step of the player encountering a card, only the player encountering the card has a before you act step.
I would play that player B can't use the Ring of Forcefangs to reduce the damage.
Player B has not yet acted during the Scientist encounter.
It is Before You Act damage.
(Player B could provide some sort of support action in the encounter, which would be an action)
During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions. Players may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step (or relate to cards played or powers used in that step).
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Apply Any Effects That Happen Before You Act. If any powers on the card you’re encountering happen before you act, they take effect at this time. You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used before you act.
You can play the card to reduce damage dealt to you even though it isn't your encounter, because it says it can be played before you act.
I agree with skizzerz. It's a step in the encounter called "Before You Act" and it's the same step for everyone. Remember, it used to be called "Before the encounter."
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The only problem with this line of thought is that Player A is the one encountering the Scientist. The Before You Act is his and not Player B. Player B can play cards to reduce damage done to him but not if it specifically says "Before You Act" since he's not encountering the card. To him, it is just damage dealt to him during someone else's encounter.
Plus it really isn't Before You Act damage. It is simply damage taken during the Before You Act step.
The first section of my rulebook quote explains that other players may play cards during these steps as well. "Before you act" is a step of the encounter and although you may not be the one acting, per the first section I quoted you can play cards that reference that step at the appropriate time. I see what you are arguing (that the "you" in "before you act" has extra weight and limits it to your own encounters), but that line of reasoning is needlessly limiting and in other cards that restrict things to your own turn, is mentioned in clearer terms. When there are two valid readings of text, my mantra is the less absurd one is correct, and in this case the more limiting reading is in my mind absurd. You're taking damage, card says it prevents that damage, the technicality of who is encountering the thing dealing the damage shouldn't really matter.
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I think what Theryon is saying is that it says "before you act" (the other players aren't acting and can't use the ring) instead of "during the before you act step" (everyone can use a ring because it is that step regardless of who is encountering). Standing by my earlier statement that it should work as you say, I'm inclined to agree with Theryon as it currently is written.
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I think what Theryon is saying is that it says "before you act" (the other players aren't acting and can't use the ring) instead of "during the before you act step" (everyone can use a ring because it is that step regardless of who is encountering). Standing by my earlier statement that it should work as you say, I'm inclined to agree with Theryon as it currently is written.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
@skizzerz: Yes, you may only play cards related to the step(s) of the encounter but only Player A is encountering the Scientist. So the Before You Act is actually only his. No one else has a Before You Act step during someone else's encounter. To them, it is just another step. I agree that Player B is taking damage. But the ring specifically says "Before You Act" or "After You Act". Player B is not the one doing the encounter and therefore does not have a BYA or AYA step. He just has damage taken during Player A's encounter. Also, it is not needlessly limiting the use of the ring. If the ring was meant to reduce damage at any time, it would have that last phrase limiting its use.
Also, why is it absurd? If you read it as written, you wouldn't allow the use of the ring. It is rationalization that is allowing you to take that next step is saying that the "Before You Act" step is everyone's Before You Act step. But the steps of an encounter are for the person encountering the card. There are cards and powers that allow you to act during steps of other players' encounters. This just doesn't happen to be one of them.
IMHO, the simple fact that it raises a such a Xmas debate between game's veterans means it's not 100% obvious and would benefit from an official clarificarion.
Interesting question. It'll be a while before the team is all back together to look at this one, but we'll look at it when we can.
The wording and ruling aside, I find cards that reduce damage 'before you act' to get very little use for that purpose as is. I'm at AD4 now and this is (at most) my third time (in a 3-character solo game) using a card to specifically reduce damage 'before you act'. If it can only affect the owner of the card when she encounters a card, the opportunities get even rarer. A boon of same type that can reduce damage in general just seems more useful instead in just about every instance.
Ring of Forcefangs is a bit of an exception though, since it can block all damage 'before you act' and is a recharge. Even if it rarely gets used, at least it blocks it all.
On the other hand, such an item get to be played before you act, thus enabling another item to be played during the main check....
True. But it's still a rare occurrence to get to use 'before you act' reductions, in my personal experience. There are cards that get used much more frequently for great benefits, so it's hard to justify keeping these 'before you act' cards around instead of them, just on the off-chance they might some day get used. Just doesn't seem worth it overall.
That's the impression I've had so far, anyways. That's all. :) Would be interested to hear how others have fared with decks that use 'before you act' defense.
I think what Theryon is saying is that it says "before you act" (the other players aren't acting and can't use the ring) instead of "during the before you act step" (everyone can use a ring because it is that step regardless of who is encountering). Standing by my earlier statement that it should work as you say, I'm inclined to agree with Theryon as it currently is written.That's exactly what I'm saying.
@skizzerz: Yes, you may only play cards related to the step(s) of the encounter but only Player A is encountering the Scientist. So the Before You Act is actually only his. No one else has a Before You Act step during someone else's encounter. To them, it is just another step. I agree that Player B is taking damage. But the ring specifically says "Before You Act" or "After You Act". Player B is not the one doing the encounter and therefore does not have a BYA or AYA step. He just has damage taken during Player A's encounter. Also, it is not needlessly limiting the use of the ring. If the ring was meant to reduce damage at any time, it would have that last phrase limiting its use.
Also, why is it absurd? If you read it as written, you wouldn't allow the use of the ring. It is rationalization that is allowing you to take that next step is saying that the "Before You Act" step is everyone's Before You Act step. But the steps of an encounter are for the person encountering the card. There are cards and powers that allow you to act during steps of other players' encounters. This just doesn't happen to be one of them.
Yes, I understand your point of view. It's a valid reading of the text, however there is another valid reading proffered by the two sections of the rulebook I quoted that is less limiting. It basically treats "before you act" (the phrase) as a step of the encounter, and the reference to "before you act" in the card text is a reference to that encounter step.
"During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions." That quote is stating that the text in the encounter step sections apply to other players (e.g. players that are not encountering the card) as well. The rulebook later goes on to say "You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used before you act." That is a specified action within the step, meaning that you (the person encountering the card) as well as other players can perform that action. Therefore, a player can play a card that says it may be used before you act even if they are not the one acting based on the combination of those two sentences.
I am calling the more limited reading absurd because it does not fit the flavor of the source material. Ring of forcefangs in the RPG does not only situationally work depending on whose turn it is or requiring an immediate action to use (for those unfamiliar with the RPG, a player can only use one immediate action per round). The fact it doesn't work when fully charged can be represented by you needing to recharge it to use it (e.g. using it once fully charges it, and by the time it gets back to your hand it loses enough charges to be useful again). It only working on force damage isn't really represented well in the card game, and I imagine it was changed to BYA/AYA damage to keep a restriction on its use that was more applicable, although I can't say for certain what the design or intent was. With the restrictions in the source material explained via that, and lack of restrictions on whose turn it is in the source material, I do not personally believe that the intent was to introduce a restriction of that sort where there previously was none, given all of the other restrictions in the source material were ported over already. Because of that, given a choice between a valid reading where a new restriction is invented and a valid reading where no new restriction is invented (thus staying more true to source material), I find the second to be more likely to be the correct reading and the first to be more absurd due to the invention of new restrictions.
"During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions." That quote is stating that the text in the encounter step sections apply to other players (e.g. players that are not encountering the card) as well. The rulebook later goes on to say "You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used before you act." That is a specified action within the step, meaning that you (the person encountering the card) as well as other players can perform that action. Therefore, a player can play a card that says it may be used before you act even if they are not the one acting based on the combination of those two sentences.
I think the first statement refers to all players and the second statement refers only to the encountering player. The fact that other players can act during the encountering player's steps doesn't mean that all rules regarding the encountering player refer to all players.
I can't speak to parallels with the RPG. I'm looking at the card game as its own entity.
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"During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions." That quote is stating that the text in the encounter step sections apply to other players (e.g. players that are not encountering the card) as well. The rulebook later goes on to say "You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used before you act." That is a specified action within the step, meaning that you (the person encountering the card) as well as other players can perform that action. Therefore, a player can play a card that says it may be used before you act even if they are not the one acting based on the combination of those two sentences.I think the first statement refers to all players and the second statement refers only to the encountering player. The fact that other players can act during the encountering player's steps doesn't mean that all rules regarding the encountering player refer to all players.
I can't speak to parallels with the RPG. I'm looking at the card game as its own entity.
First, you can parallel some of what's in RPG with ACG but definitely not the actual mechanics. The basics of encounters is completely different overall. (Meaning that it is not as singular as ACG.)
And while you are reading the rulebook one way, I'm agreeing with elcoderdude with the interpretation you are quoting. While you and other players are able to play cards that are applicable during the various steps, I never have read it that each player has such steps outside of their personal encounters. (As I've said before in my post.)
Obviously Mike and crew are going to look into this. But as a VO and "the judge" in the games I'm running, I'd be ruling against the use of the ring's power when not on your turn/encounter. That is until we hear otherwise.
Character Before/After You Act powers potentially affected by any decision here:
Seelah (WotR All) - Skill Substitution
Adowyn (WotR Blight Scout) - Reduce Damage
Crowe (WotR Mauler) - Reduce Damage
Ekkie (WotR Guttersnipe) - Skill Substitution
Merisiel (S&S Shadow) - Reduce Damage ("before the encounter")
Rooboo (Monk CD All) - Skill Substitution
Harsk (Ranger CD Vanguard) - Reduce Damage
Qualzar (Sorcerer CD Mesmerist) - Reduce Damage
I only did a quick search through the various character sheet PDFs, so I might have missed something.
Personally: I think that, in these and similar powers, Before You Act is describing a substep of an encounter and they always apply. I found two powers where the authors went out of their way to specify they can only be used on your turn or encounter:
Arabundi (Ranger CD Mage Hunter) - Add To Your Combat Check
Rooboo (Monk CD Flowing Monk) - Add To Your Combat Check
Crowe (WotR Mauler) has an Add To Your Combat Check power that doesn't specify only on his turn. However, since it's only going to work if he's going to make a Combat check during that encounter (so his turn or multiple checks), I don't see any problems with it.
This leaves Agna (Ranger CD Aggressor), who has a Before You Act power that lets her draw cards. This one might need clarification.
Just my $0.02:
I can think of 2 reasons why I believe that "before you act" effects would be universal to all characters, not just the encountering one (meaning the ring can be used by the non-encountering character):
1) That character (character B) MAY choose to act by using a power or card to assist the player who encountered the bane. Since cards don't have memories we can't wait until they DO act to decide if they may, therefore, I'm of the opinion that it is just as much player B's "before you act timeframe" as it is player A's.
2) If "before you act, succeed at x check or you may not plays spells or weapons" types of bane powers affect all players, such as someone using Illuminate to add to another character's check has to beat that check to assist, then this should count as a before you act to all players as well.
Gambit001's item 2 is why I mentioned skill substitution powers above. (Those checks apply to everyone and happen in the Before You Act substep.)
1) That character (character B) MAY choose to act by using a power or card to assist the player who encountered the bane. Since cards don't have memories we can't wait until they DO act to decide if they may, therefore, I'm of the opinion that it is just as much player B's "before you act timeframe" as it is player A's.
I don't understand this claim. Any assistance I can think of (playing blessings, playing spells, Lem/Valeros/Harsk/etc assistance) takes place during steps other than the BYA step.
2) If "before you act, succeed at x check or you may not plays spells or weapons" types of bane powers affect all players, such as someone using Illuminate to add to another character's check has to beat that check to assist, then this should count as a before you act to all players as well.
The spell-restriction BYA power is universal because such limitations apply to all players, not because all players experience the before you act step.
I think the debate hinges on whether the "you" in "before you act" is significant. If the step were "Before the encountering player acts" and the Ring of Forcefangs said "When you are dealt damage before the encountering player acts", I'd raise no objection.
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So really the only question is whether "you" is plural or singular. Man...we need different words for that in English.
You and y'all :)
1) That character (character B) MAY choose to act by using a power or card to assist the player who encountered the bane. Since cards don't have memories we can't wait until they DO act to decide if they may, therefore, I'm of the opinion that it is just as much player B's "before you act timeframe" as it is player A's.I don't understand this claim. Any assistance I can think of (playing blessings, playing spells, Lem/Valeros/Harsk/etc assistance) takes place during steps other than the BYA step.
2) If "before you act, succeed at x check or you may not plays spells or weapons" types of bane powers affect all players, such as someone using Illuminate to add to another character's check has to beat that check to assist, then this should count as a before you act to all players as well.The spell-restriction BYA power is universal because such limitations apply to all players, not because all players experience the before you act step.
I think the debate hinges on whether the "you" in "before you act" is significant. If the step were "Before the encountering player acts" and the Ring of Forcefangs said "When you are dealt damage before the encountering player acts", I'd raise no objection.
For #1: I guess what I was trying to say is that because any assistance happens on a different step, we have to assume that such assistance could occur and therefore every character has a before you act step regardless of who encountered the card.
For #2: The way I see it, if one before you act power counts as a before you act power, they all do, whether you have to make a check (which would allow you to use cards/powers) or if you have to resolve an effect (in this case taking damage).
Again this is just my viewpoint, and one of the guys I play with and I get into debates about cards and rules all the time, which is why I love this forum so much!
In the end I agree it comes down to the significance of the "you" on the card, but it just seems to me that "before you act" damage would be universal.
Interesting question. It'll be a while before the team is all back together to look at this one, but we'll look at it when we can.
Since it cropped up recently, I just wanted to ask if there's any progress in that regard. (For the record, the dominant camp in my group seems to be "Before You Act" is a step for all player and they can play relevant cards - if you just imagine it was called something else, let's say "Preparation Step' and the card was saying "Reduce damage dealt in the Preparation Step" no one would bat an eye)
Chief Technical Officer
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The short answer is that "before you act" is about when, not about who.
We will try to use wordings that make that clear, but most of those changes should be cosmetic. The one functional change that we know will be coming out of this is that Agna's "Before you act" power needs to be limited to her turn.
Now for a fun one (just for fun) : say I meet that cute guy. He summons a "Before You Act Skeleton". That skeleton deals me combat damage. Is it Before You Act damage?
... Just for fun....
Now for a fun one (just for fun) : say I meet that cute guy. He summons a "Before You Act Skeleton". That skeleton deals me combat damage. Is it Before You Act damage?
... Just for fun....
Inasmuch that Before You Act is a step in an encounter, and the Ancient Skeleton initiates a separate encounter - I'd say it deals to you normal Combat damage (in it's own Take Damage If Necessary phase).
I agree with Longshot here - the summon has its own phases and you're not in the Headless Lord's BYA phase when you're fighting the summon