Hello! Now I am aware this isn't the smartest thing to do.... but I'm interested in building a comedic themed grappler with the kitsune Fox Shape feat. The whole goal is to be a tiny grappling death machine of cuteness.
What kind of classes/feats outside of the obvious grapple/imp grapple can you think of to best outfit our little guy in a world of tall folk?
I'm very interested in sneak attack (leaning towards a slayer build with claws). Is any kind of constrict possible? white haired witch gets some fun things but I don't know if its really a strong enough grappler because of it's BAB.
Thanks everyone!
If you want to do the whole massive Dex based grappler with kitsune, then you need to with Tetori monk... Unfortunately constrict is very difficult to gain now unless you have a racial option.
|
Rough. Tiny makes you take penalties to combat maneuver checks(that includes grapple checks), and you'll need to take an AOO by moving into his square to grapple him as you have 0 ft reach. You'll probably want at least 1 level in swashbuckler(mouser) archtype, or monkey style chain of feats to move in without AOOs.
You'll need to steal some principles from this thread:
http://paizo.com/search?q=Songbird+of+doom&what=messageboards&inclu deUnrated=true&includeUnavailable=true
You'll definitely want agile maneuvers, improved grapple and greater grapple. Tetori make the best grapplers for their ability to suppress freedom of movement effects. Anaconda belt so you can qualify for final embrace feat chain, though you won't be able to use the grab ability due to size.
Beyond that, I've not played as a tiny sized character before, so I can't really help much.
Special Size Modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows:
Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
The -2 is not too horrible to overcome; however, you will want to find a way to bump up your CMD. A lot of folks neglect their CMD and while they might be able to successfully grapple a troll, if they cannot maintain their hold on said troll... that's a problem.
Now the big question is.... does the bolded line above work for the kitsune shapeshifting ability? If yes, then you won't need to worry about Agile Maneuvers.
Songbird of doom... I approve :D yeah i should get agile maneuvers for free basically since I'm size tiny. The mouser deed is pretty much perfect for this build!
As for reach, I think I originally thought I could use lunge, but that appears to be melee attacks only and I don't think it will let me grapple at a range (I know grapple counts as an "attack" but I don't think it technically counts as a "melee attack"??)
white haired witch gives a range 5ft+ grapple which is cool but it forces you to use int, which could potentially diminish the strengths of the other grapple feat chains and also gives a constrict at level 2, so maybe a tiny dip wouldn't hurt?
So far it looks like a lot of multiclassing to pull this thing off! :) I was really hoping that there was something out there for ignoring size penalties on combat maneuvers but i haven't found anything yet, but yeah worst case senario -2 isn't that bad unless you're comparing it to a size large creature that has a +2 (forcing you to bridge a gap of 4 with other stufF)
The three styles that go the best seem to be Kraken style (lots of sneak attack synergy), monkey style for the movement, and panther style if you want to go the "intentional" AOOs route. Kraken style seems to be the highest damage with a sneak attack build if you can make sure your qualifying as flanking etc (like with the mouser)
The three styles that go the best seem to be Kraken style (lots of sneak attack synergy), monkey style for the movement, and panther style if you want to go the "intentional" AOOs route. Kraken style seems to be the highest damage with a sneak attack build if you can make sure your qualifying as flanking etc (like with the mouser)
Does kraken style set off sneak attack damage dice? It seems to be something different than an attack, its more like a consequence of a combat maneuver.
Rationally I think this works, my brain is raising warning flags. I don't know why.
|
Anaconda belt so you can qualify for final embrace feat chain, though you won't be able to use the grab ability due to size.
This doesn't work anymore, sadly. Final Embrace was errata'd so that you only qualify if you have constrict from a racial ability.
The only was a PC can qualify is by being a Naga Aspirant druid.
3 levels of (Lore Warden) Fighter Archetype will net you a +2 Bonus to CMB and CMD, full BAB for 3 levels, two Fighter Bonus Feats, and Combat Expertise (useful primarily for qualifying for Improved combat maneuvers).
Maneuver builds will often use a combination of Monk and this archetype.
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver provides +2 to one type of maneuver.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
I actually have a PFS-Legal Kitsune Brawler who uses Fox Shape to go tiny and trip everything.
Kiyomi Foxsoul, a former fox familiar whose witch abandoned her when she was seduced into joining a coven.
In Fox Form, she's got a +15 to trip. Make sure to take the Equality for All trait... it gives you +2 to your CMB and CMD against Medium creatures. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
I thought Equality for all was halfling only.
It's legal for all creatures in PFS, from what I can tell, since it does not say in the Additional Resources page anything about the traits being halfling-only. I assumed only the Race traits from that book were actually halfling-specific, and I can always take Adopted to take it anyway, right?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
How can a Tiny fox trip anything larger than a Small creature?
Ooh... I just looked back at the rules there.. no more than one size larger than yourself... crap. I thought that was just for grappling. Okay so my Fox Shape tripper is not as legal per-se as I thought she was. Crappo. LOL
Equality for all is exactly the type of thing I was hoping to find!
That's a good point BigNorseWolf, I know the definition of attack is purposely vague, I would have to just talk with the DM on how he would classify it. Officially though, I swear I read somewhere that sneak attack can be used on things like that but I may be mistaken. For example, I thought sneak attack could be added to constrict, is that true? If so I feel it would be similar wording?
This level 13 build sounds fun, I threw in some vivisectionist for near perfect sneak attack and for discovery tentacle. Gives a mutagen that I could use for Dex and since tentacle is a class feature, in theory you should be able to use it while in fox shape right? The tentacle could be positioned like another tail and then the fox would basically have a hand at all times!
Kitsune, trait: equality for all
1. Swashbuckler (mouser 1) FEAT:unarmed strike
2. Slayer (1)
3. Slayer (2) ST:(ranger style natural) aspect of the beast claws FEAT: Fox Shape
4. Slayer (3) sneak attack 1d6
5. Alchemist (vivisectionist 1) sneak attack 2d6 FEAT: Imp grapple
6. Alchemist (vivisectionist 2) sneak attack 3d6, discover Tentacle
7. Slayer (4) ST: combat trick Kraken style FEAT: Greater grapple
8. Slayer (5) sneak attack 4d6
9. Slayer (6) ST: rending claws FEAT: Strangler
10.Slayer (7) sneak attack 5d6
11.Slayer (8) ST: fast stealth FEAT: Body Shield
12.Slayer (9) sneak attack 6d6
13.Slayer (10) AST: assassinate (because no one suspects the cute fox...) FEAT: Kraken Throttle
Vivisectionist doesn't grant immediate sneak attack damage dice bump necessarily. His levels stack as levels of rogue to determine the next sneak attack scaling. I am not sure how this affects slayer's sneak attack damage though, but it's probably 1d6 lower then you wrote.
Adam
It does actually! :) There are even other forums that help clear it up, but basically Vivisectionist turns all your sneak attack classes into a rogue progression, so basically add all your sneak attack classes levels up (in this case 12) and then compare it to a rogue chart. So in this example at level 5 when i take Viv, I'm a 4th level rogue for sneak attack (2d6 just like I typed out)
:a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability:
A vivisectionist has the following class features.
Sneak Attack
At 1st level, a vivisectionist gains the sneak attack ability as a rogue of the same level. If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on).
Take Celestial Obediance, Worship Falayna.