Thanks! <(^-^)7
You're my only hope. :D
...
I might be anxious to see the new Star Wars... >_>No, there is another.
And another.:D
Simulacrum is a beautiful thing sometimes. (TvT)
One of my homebrews actually gave unchained rogues non-magical castings of Limited Wish (and eventually Wish as a capstone) a few times a day, if they could associate the spell they are replicating with a skill they have selected with Rogues Edge or that Skill Unlocks feat.
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As far as balance metrics, where do you think class abilities should be on the spectrum of power? I was kind of thinking along the lines of class abilities being as strong as a spell two levels lower than the highest available for a full caster. So if a caster can fire off seventh level spells at level x, then a fighter would be able to access class abilities that are equivalent to a fifth level spell, just with fewer restrictions(uses per day etc.).
It's a pretty interesting thing to study. EDIT: That is to say, I don't have a concrete certain answer but it'd contend that it's a good theory to be exploring and figuring out a good measurement would be helpful.
And honestly, pacing non-resource abilities at spell level X-Y is probably not a bad idea. Some friends and I were discussing the merits of making a number of abilities x/day before becoming at-will as a means of reducing bookkeeping, just yesterday. :)
full casters are so powerful as to be literal gods. I think it's OK for PC classes to be nerfed slightly from literal god status.Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
Not to mention that it just sounds like another low magic tabletop clone. How many of those are there now? Pretty sure the lord of the rings niche is covered in Spades.
I don't disagree. That said, the majority of this thread has been nerf nerf nerf. Can we have a solution that comes from the other side please. Please?
I play pathfinder because its high fantasy and all of the solutions proposed offer nothing in the way of a warrior who could plausibly survive the environment that they clearly live in.
I'm not sure what you are looking to see? I mean, a vast majority of these threads speak about how casters, specifically wizards, are so powerful that they are literal gods. It's suggested that they are reduced, but you don't want that. You want martials raised to their level and to leave the casters where they are?
I guess you'd just give them whatever power you are looking for and reskin it as "Really Strong" or "Incredibly Durable." HERO, GURPS and others have done this for years; the special effects of powers is separate from the descriptive elements. Then you can have Superboy punch through dimensions through sheer power. It's a Plane Shift or whatever, but he just did it being strong?
I'm not sure if that is what you are saying, though.
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I think what they're speaking of is the fact that even if you nerf wizards really hard, it doesn't give muggles any better chances of surviving the stuff that they can't handle anyway.
Martials need to be able to traverse in the metaphysical ocean. Taking the wizard's speedboat and handing him an oar doesn't actually help the fighter not drown.
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full casters are so powerful as to be literal gods. I think it's OK for PC classes to be nerfed slightly from literal god status.Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
Not to mention that it just sounds like another low magic tabletop clone. How many of those are there now? Pretty sure the lord of the rings niche is covered in Spades.
I don't disagree. That said, the majority of this thread has been nerf nerf nerf. Can we have a solution that comes from the other side please. Please?
I play pathfinder because its high fantasy and all of the solutions proposed offer nothing in the way of a warrior who could plausibly survive the environment that they clearly live in.
I'm not sure what you are looking to see? I mean, a vast majority of these threads speak about how casters, specifically wizards, are so powerful that they are literal gods. It's suggested that they are reduced, but you don't want that. You want martials raised to their level and to leave the casters where they are?
I guess you'd just give them whatever power you are looking for and reskin it as "Really Strong" or "Incredibly Durable." HERO, GURPS and others have done this for years; the special effects of powers is separate from the descriptive elements. Then you can have Superboy punch through dimensions through sheer power. It's a Plane Shift or whatever, but he just did it being strong?
I'm not sure if that is what you are saying, though.
I can see that. The first three words of my post very literally said that I agreed that casters need to be toned down. In fact, I've concurred with that assessment over and over in this very thread.
That doesn't make gimli the friggin dwarf make any more sense in a level fifteen campaign fighting demon hordes, but that's what we have.
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I'd also like to point out that a classic D&D trope is in fact fighting gods. Several Faerun deities even came about this way (with mortal heroes or villains usurping deities). Likewise, several major outsiders in core D&D/Pathfinder are godlike in virtually every sense of the word. When you're expected to deal with four godlike beings per day before needing to rest...
Well...
Just sayin'.
Which is why I said earlier to dial down the casters and dial up the martials. I don't think that I'd personally bring them all the way up to where wizards are now, but they could use a boost. It's a matter of where to put the boost and what should remain the realm of the mystics.
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Just to offer a counter point, not arguing but showing an alternate view.
If casters weren't in the world, then Martials wouldn't have to worry. Many of the threats your talking about come from things able to cast magic, ergo casters. Remove the ability of things to cast magic, then we have low magic. For example, if there is no spell that lets you create Demi planes because no casters invented it, then now you won't have adventures where Demi planes are accessible.
The presence of casters itself brings the challenges you speak of. If casters are there, they have stuff that everyone can use that actually lets them survive in this magical world. I mean you gods throwing around magic, but the fact magic is there means magical stuff is available for Martials to use against the gods too.
This is the Paradox you face really. Some folks want the magic users but aren't satisfied with the magic users can provide solutions for everyone as well. That makes it a difficult solution to find which is probably why there's so much debate about what people want.
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Would I be correct in assuming that the view would incorporate removing all users of magic rather than just casting classes, such as monsters with SLA's?
But the fact magic is there means magical stuff is available for Martials to use against the gods too.
My personal fix is that there are no non-magical PC classes, since what warrior wouldn't incorporate abit of magic into their repertoire to fill in the gaps? But many dislike that answer since many want to have "non-supernatural warrior" as a viable option, despite the paradox you describe.
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I still think third party neatly solves the problem.
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Just to offer a counter point, not arguing but showing an alternate view.
If casters weren't in the world, then Martials wouldn't have to worry. Many of the threats your talking about come from things able to cast magic, ergo casters. Remove the ability of things to cast magic, then we have low magic. For example, if there is no spell that lets you create Demi planes because no casters invented it, then now you won't have adventures where Demi planes are accessible.
The presence of casters itself brings the challenges you speak of. If casters are there, they have stuff that everyone can use that actually lets them survive in this magical world. I mean you gods throwing around magic, but the fact magic is there means magical stuff is available for Martials to use against the gods too.
This is the Paradox you face really. Some folks want the magic users but aren't satisfied with the magic users can provide solutions for everyone as well. That makes it a difficult solution to find which is probably why there's so much debate about what people want.
Depends by your definition. Remove anything with SLA and casting and you still have DR, Regen, Gaze attacks, and various other supernatural or extraordinary threats that the martials can't respond to. Remove all magic in general and you have plenty of lovely issues like now we get to see what's stronger at level 6, 4 mundanely equipped martials or a couple ogres and several goblins. Can remove all fantastical elements and just face npcs but then the winner is mostly who has the better numbers or tactics as AC is kinda hard capped and martials tend to have trouble with crowd control. They also cannot remove poisons or diseases, heal themselves or others, or circumvent any problems that a skill check won't allow for.
For the last though, I dunno if I'd call it a paradox. Some people want spellcasters and they want their martials to have the ability to contribute more than my face slam their face. The only paradox is when they want the martial to contribute but not in any way that is beyond the realms of reality and exist alongside the wizard same time.
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Would I be correct in assuming that the view would incorporate removing all users of magic rather than just casting classes, such as monsters with SLA's?
But the fact magic is there means magical stuff is available for Martials to use against the gods too.My personal fix is that there are no non-magical PC classes, since what warrior wouldn't incorporate abit of magic into their repertoire to fill in the gaps? But many dislike that answer since many want to have "non-supernatural warrior" as a viable option, despite the paradox you describe.
Yeah, I actually understand that as a stance given the stuff we outlined above. Different horses for courses i guess.
I'm happy to let magic gear stand in, you want supernatural ability. I get that more so since this thread.
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I think what they're speaking of is the fact that even if you nerf wizards really hard, it doesn't give muggles any better chances of surviving the stuff that they can't handle anyway.
Martials need to be able to traverse in the metaphysical ocean. Taking the wizard's speedboat and handing him an oar doesn't actually help the fighter not drown.
I actually don't particularly agree with this statement. I think along with nerfing wizards, you lower the ceiling of what's expected from PCs, leading to more situations that mundanes can handle. Right now the scope of spells is so wide that if the ceiling of expectations was lowered, we'd be in more situations where spells couldn't just solve everything.
It won't solve the problem instantly (removing teleport won't remove the reason to move quickly), but it'll make more mundane answers such as overland travel more the norm instead of considered something that only muggles do.
While I do also agree that mundanes should be brought up, I think the idea of the two meeting in the middle is better than simply pushing the floor up until they're close enough where casters don't have to feel bad about being literal deities.
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It's worth noting that if you don't renovate all the areas where martials are lacking, nerfing casters would only remove staples. You'd have to nerf monsters, nerf traps, nerf diseases, nerf supernatural diseases/curses, etc.
For example, I already noted that skills can't really do anything to practically treat poisons and diseases. All they do is provide a bonus on saves. Healing? Paltry. No magic to de-petrify creatures? Suddenly anything with petrifying abilities is far worse. Pretty much every creature in the bestiary (especially iconic monsters like pit fiends, dragons, angels, etc) has to be revised from the ground up.
And we definitely want to make sure that the answer to making muggles feel better is not making everything else more limited like muggles. Why? Because unfortunately muggles are boring as sin. :(
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Oh, I totally agree that there'd have to be some concessions in pushing down mages (some spells needing to be releveled to make sure they're coming at relevant points), although if all that comes down to is dropping Break Enchantment down a level or two, that's a fair price to pay.
Again, I think for me, I want the two to meet in the middle. Things like POW/TOB are aces in my book for this. Sure they don't help mundane's deal with disease and other standard problems, but they do help with other situations that make them less boring.
Here honestly I was hoping skill unlocks would help do some of the things you're talking about (heal skill unlock COULD be beast), but that's a problem. Mundane's are too tied to...well, being mundane. Giving them more ways to interact with the magical world around them would be a good step forward, and from what I've heard of your revamp of the skill system, it seems like you have some ideas for this.
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Yeah it's challenging but I think we (Aratrok and I) are well on our way. Aratrok's asked to take the reigns of the skill system while I'm focusing combat, character building, and mataphysics. I'm pretty excited to see what he's going to cook up. We've discussed a number of things, most noteably the unlocking of progressively more mythical abilities as skill ranks are invested into skills.
The key thing here being that actually investing real ranks can give you the ability to do really crazy stuff that is beyond the realm of normal people. So a monk could fall off a pier and to the surprise of onlookers begin performing his kung-fu across the surface of the water (balancing on it through preternatural acrobatics), or someone with legendary skills in things like Heal, being able to perform some glorious mad doctoring (reviving the dead, grafting new limbs onto things, etc).
The idea is strongly based on the fact that normal human beings the lowest of low levels and that increasing in level makes you more extraordinary. In Pathfinder, a even a mid-level fighter can swan dive 100 ft. into a spiked pit and be okay with that (hurt but okay) but the system forces him to be leashed to pseudo-reality in terms of skills and options.
However, rather than merely allowing super-things through high DCs, ranks will actively unlock additional ways to use those skills, so even if a commoner happens to have a really crazy amazing Dex, Skill Focus, masterwork tool, whatever, the commoner still couldn't do anything that requires say 5 ranks to unlock and thus the commoner couldn't just accidentally dance on water like the 5th level monk could because they rolled well. Similarly, the monk doesn't have to crazy-optimize to hit the DCs of his newly unlocked ability because the ranks themselves unlock the option and the DC can remain in the realm of plausibility on the RNG.
I'm quite excited about it.
EDIT: This also means that using magic items or spells that grant modifiers to skills won't actually replace actual ability in that skill in the first place. For example, even if an effect can give you +20 to a Heal check, you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again unless you've unlocked that ability (which involves RANKS).
Ranks are also more precious and are tied to martial vs magical ability. The more martial you are the more ranks you get and the less martial is (and thus the more magical you are) the less ranks you get. The explanation for this is pretty simple: those practicing magic are too preoccupied with learning the skill of telling physics to STFU, while those who aren't are learning to get VIP treatment from fantasy-physics. :3
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It's understandable, I think skills are probably the weakest part of 3.X, and an overhaul to them has been sorely needed for a while. The tethering of mundanes to being mundane is a damn shame.
Send me a link to it later and I'll check it out once I finish writing up a few projects I have in mind (some freelance and some guides), I think it'd be fun to hear some of your ideas, see what you've got set up for this jazz.
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It's understandable, I think skills are probably the weakest part of 3.X, and an overhaul to them has been sorely needed for a while. The tethering of mundanes to being mundane is a damn shame.
Send me a link to it later and I'll check it out once I finish writing up a few projects I have in mind (some freelance and some guides), I think it'd be fun to hear some of your ideas, see what you've got set up for this jazz.
As soon as we're pretty comfortable with it, we're going to set up a SRD for it and begin a public playtest. And the really novel idea is that it'll actually be a playtest rather than a publicity stunt.
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As soon as we're pretty comfortable with it, we're going to set up a SRD for it and begin a public playtest. And the really novel idea is that it'll actually be a playtest rather than a publicity stunt.It's understandable, I think skills are probably the weakest part of 3.X, and an overhaul to them has been sorely needed for a while. The tethering of mundanes to being mundane is a damn shame.
Send me a link to it later and I'll check it out once I finish writing up a few projects I have in mind (some freelance and some guides), I think it'd be fun to hear some of your ideas, see what you've got set up for this jazz.
If your planning on publishing it or developing stuff as a business's thing, check the Paizo site licence. I expect you already know this but if it's posted on these boards, then it belongs to them.
At least it used to say that. Haven't checked in about 5 years myself.
Personally I think one of the best adjustments to the game I've implemented was the Consolidated Skill List with adjustments. I don't think that it works as presented in Pathfinder Unchained and I've been criticized for my way of handling it but I've been running numbers back and forth about it and playing it out and I think it just winds up better in the long run and at the table the only dissenters have been the same crowd that generally refuses to take up new classes or options for familiarity reasons.
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I have yet to see an AP that actually requires a character to be above Tier 3 in capability, and I know that most of the 3pp I've worked for generally see that as kind of an ideal balance point for new classes and mechanics.
Age of Worms is a pretty good candidate, if you limit the party to 4 PCs at the levels recommended.
I have yet to see an AP that actually requires a character to be above Tier 3 in capability, and I know that most of the 3pp I've worked for generally see that as kind of an ideal balance point for new classes and mechanics.Age of Worms is a pretty good candidate, if you limit the party to 4 PCs at the levels recommended.
Savage Tide isn't far behind.
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I have yet to see an AP that actually requires a character to be above Tier 3 in capability, and I know that most of the 3pp I've worked for generally see that as kind of an ideal balance point for new classes and mechanics.Age of Worms is a pretty good candidate, if you limit the party to 4 PCs at the levels recommended.
Yeah, if my group didn't have a cleric in this one they were hosed.
Savage Tide, nah. We took it using Martials and 6 level casting classes. Mind you, that was back in the 3.5 days. There were lots more options then.
As soon as we're pretty comfortable with it, we're going to set up a SRD for it and begin a public playtest. And the really novel idea is that it'll actually be a playtest rather than a publicity stunt.It's understandable, I think skills are probably the weakest part of 3.X, and an overhaul to them has been sorely needed for a while. The tethering of mundanes to being mundane is a damn shame.
Send me a link to it later and I'll check it out once I finish writing up a few projects I have in mind (some freelance and some guides), I think it'd be fun to hear some of your ideas, see what you've got set up for this jazz.
If your planning on publishing it or developing stuff as a business's thing, check the Paizo site licence. I expect you already know this but if it's posted on these boards, then it belongs to them.
At least it used to say that. Haven't checked in about 5 years myself.
That's basically why I haven't posted any of the mechanics for our game on these boards. I'm not saying Paizo would scum out and abuse the agreement that protects them from random lawsuits but I'd rather not make it a possibility to make life easier for everyone involved.
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The last few exchanges have certainly revealed how difficult it is to address the caster-martial disparity issue. Not because the system is inherently unfixable, but because even amongst those who agree there is a problem, there appears to be vast differences 6in opinion in how to correct it.
See...I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from Ashiel. I think the solution should inherently rest mostly in bringing down the power level of full casters, to at least the level of the average 6th level caster. Martials need a boost, but currently they are "closer" to my preference of power level than wizards for instance. DnD Wizards are far far far more powerful than almost any equivalent "PC like" character from most contemporary fantasy fiction.
Perhaps one solution would be too turn most of the really powerful and frequently cited problem spells into complicated occult rituals. Allow all classes access to them, but give an edge on use to characters with investment in relevant skills. Such rituals would be more complicated than ordinary spells and require some advanced set up, but would reduce some of the problematic issues frequently cited with spells.
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The last few exchanges have certainly revealed how difficult it is to address the caster-martial disparity issue. Not because the system is inherently unfixable, but because even amongst those who agree there is a problem, there appears to be vast differences 6in opinion in how to correct it.
See...I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from Ashiel. I think the solution should inherently rest mostly in bringing down the power level of full casters, to at least the level of the average 6th level caster. Martials need a boost, but currently they are "closer" to my preference of power level than wizards for instance. DnD Wizards are far far far more powerful than almost any equivalent "PC like" character from most contemporary fantasy fiction.
Perhaps one solution would be too turn most of the really powerful and frequently cited problem spells into complicated occult rituals. Allow all classes access to them, but give an edge on use to characters with investment in relevant skills. Such rituals would be more complicated than ordinary spells and require some advanced set up, but would reduce some of the problematic issues frequently cited with spells.
You obviously haven't read enough wuxia light novels. D&D Wizards powerful? You obviously haven't seen the power of Tier 4+ Cultivator (in all the various systems, they seem to leave mortality behind at tier 4+ in terms of being able to wipe out cities and stuff).
==Aelryinth
The last few exchanges have certainly revealed how difficult it is to address the caster-martial disparity issue. Not because the system is inherently unfixable, but because even amongst those who agree there is a problem, there appears to be vast differences 6in opinion in how to correct it.
See...I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from Ashiel. I think the solution should inherently rest mostly in bringing down the power level of full casters, to at least the level of the average 6th level caster. Martials need a boost, but currently they are "closer" to my preference of power level than wizards for instance. DnD Wizards are far far far more powerful than almost any equivalent "PC like" character from most contemporary fantasy fiction.
Perhaps one solution would be too turn most of the really powerful and frequently cited problem spells into complicated occult rituals. Allow all classes access to them, but give an edge on use to characters with investment in relevant skills. Such rituals would be more complicated than ordinary spells and require some advanced set up, but would reduce some of the problematic issues frequently cited with spells.
You obviously haven't read enough wuxia light novels. D&D Wizards powerful? You obviously haven't seen the power of Tier 4+ Cultivator (in all the various systems, they seem to leave mortality behind at tier 4+ in terms of being able to wipe out cities and stuff).
==Aelryinth
I think that is where we start running into the problems as well. It appears that we're looking at two different levels of play here and supporters of those: one at a lower, somewhat more gritter level some might say, where players are powerful but not godlike, and a second level where players are doing things in wuxia light novels, higher end myths/fairy tales/tall tales and so on.
What would look great for a campaign where players are supposed to regularly destroy mountain ranges, hop dimensions and otherwise engage with the primal forces of the universe just overwhelms the lower range, and what would be fine for gritty dungeon crawls and fantasy novelesque adventures is not nearly enough for the higher end.
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Of course that is the problem.
SOme classes evolve quite well into that upper bracket.
Others are forced by perception to stay in the lower level ones, which is grossly unfair.
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Oh, BTW, someone made a note about Superman/boy being able to punch through dimensions.
Kindly note that Superman is now a caster. Yes, he's from a high-g world. But pretty much all of his powers now have basically a psionic basis, and even his super-strength is a modified form of touch-telekinesis.
So being able to punch through dimensions with a psychically powered punch is no different then being able to chop a planet in half with the same fist.
==Aelryinth
Of course that is the problem.
SOme classes evolve quite well into that upper bracket.
Others are forced by perception to stay in the lower level ones, which is grossly unfair.
===========================
Oh, BTW, someone made a note about Superman/boy being able to punch through dimensions.Kindly note that Superman is now a caster. Yes, he's from a high-g world. But pretty much all of his powers now have basically a psionic basis, and even his super-strength is a modified form of touch-telekinesis.
So being able to punch through dimensions with a psychically powered punch is no different then being able to chop a planet in half with the same fist.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, that was me. As I recall, the Superboy depicted in that particular series was based on the old Silver Age Superman with planet moving powers and the whole nine yards.
Regardless of that, the point of the mention was that there comes a certain point where you ramp up a character or allow them to do certain things, swerve out of their lane into the unexpected, and the fans (or fanboys) will riot. The internets were abuzz and ablaze (at least in comic forums) when he smashed time and space. Which may be what we see in some of the arguments here when we start touching on the upper limits of what many would like to see martials do.
Moving back to the topic at hand, yes, some of it is perception that is keeping these classes down. And part of it seems that we've run into a roadblock of where to take them. Some of the posters, here and on other threads, have made suggestions of how to amp up the martials but from what I've seen it's still the problem of where to make the break at and when to say "Ok, above this level it's literally anything goes."
And yes, for a number of people who do believe in the disparity there is still a level that they aren't comfortable with, much like there are those that will not be happy with minor changes and upgrades.
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Personally, I just don't think the world needs another gritty ttrpg, There are scads of those already. It also does not at all fit the setting. The monsters you face in pathfinder at the mid level are already outside the scope of low magic and gritty, that's why I keep saying that trying to fit pathfinder into that mold makes no practical sense.
Personally, I just don't think the world needs another gritty ttrpg, There are scads of those already. It also does not at all fit the setting. The monsters you face in pathfinder at the mid level are already outside the scope of low magic and gritty, that's why I keep saying that trying to fit pathfinder into that mold makes no practical sense.
I can certainly understand that; that said, there are people that are interested in using Pathfinder for any sort of game. Not everyone is comfortable running around at the higher levels -- despite that many of the threads on the boards seem to suggest that high level play is standard.
There should be a balance in what we're trying to do in order to give everyone a chance to play the game how they want, with the ability to adjust the slider from high to low and back again.
Not everyone wants to save (or destroy the world) all the time. I know it got old after the first half dozen or so times. Nor does everyone want to scrape by on 12 copper pieces on dungeon slogs.
We need to keep this in mind when adjusting things.
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Pathfinder does gritty stuff OK -- at lower levels. And, yes, you can totally take the first 10 levels, spread them across 20 levels, and call it good. If you nerf the casters badly enough, this is what, in essence, you're doing.
Or we can leave the casters alone, and accept that levels 11-20 are going to start to get into insane Demigod Wuxia Superhero stuff. And there's no obligation to actually play at those levels; if I decide to stay with a gritty game, I can just have my PC retire at 10th level and start another one, which is pretty much what we always did in 1e anyway (for those PCs who actually lived that long).
My preference is for keeping all 20 levels, if only because it supports a larger player base.
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For any sort of game and moving the slider back and forth, I immediately think of the Hero System as that system was designed to do exactly that. PF wasn't designed with that level of flexibility in mind.
It's a mental block for me; when I sit down to a Hero game, I have no issues with a martial with powerful and/or crazy abilities. With PF, on the other hand, it strikes me as wrong thinking trying to do the same thing, like I'm violating some sacred cow. Most likely, I'm just old ;)
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Personally, I just don't think the world needs another gritty ttrpg, There are scads of those already. It also does not at all fit the setting. The monsters you face in pathfinder at the mid level are already outside the scope of low magic and gritty, that's why I keep saying that trying to fit pathfinder into that mold makes no practical sense.
Because some people like Pathfinder, and its a well-supported system with a high quality of publishing and a complex ruleset.
Also I don't really WANT a gritty game, since I am fine with the current situation regarding healing, resurrections, and item availability, etc. All things associated with a gritty ruleset. I just think high level casters should be brought down in power some, via rewarding specialization in schools of magic and moderating the power of high level spells. I am leery of the solution of raising the power level up to bring everything in line with 9th level casters, because that sort of escalation has the potential to remove the baseline setting to far from anything I am actually interested in. Inevitably I think some class or another would be left behind, and we would still get into some new strain of Caster-X disparity anyway.
Basically...if the extreme situation is Fighter versus Wizard, I think the best solution is to increase the abilities of the weak classes, and tone down the power of the strong classes. Versus just focusing on one or the other.
Personally, I just don't think the world needs another gritty ttrpg, There are scads of those already. It also does not at all fit the setting. The monsters you face in pathfinder at the mid level are already outside the scope of low magic and gritty, that's why I keep saying that trying to fit pathfinder into that mold makes no practical sense.Because some people like Pathfinder, and its a well-supported system with a high quality of publishing and a complex ruleset.
Also I don't really WANT a gritty game, since I am fine with the current situation regarding healing, resurrections, and item availability, etc. All things associated with a gritty ruleset. I just think high level casters should be brought down in power some, via rewarding specialization in schools of magic and moderating the power of high level spells. I am leery of the solution of raising the power level up to bring everything in line with 9th level casters, because that sort of escalation has the potential to remove the baseline setting to far from anything I am actually interested in. Inevitably I think some class or another would be left behind, and we would still get into some new strain of Caster-X disparity anyway.
Basically...if the extreme situation is Fighter versus Wizard, I think the best solution is to increase the abilities of the weak classes, and tone down the power of the strong classes. Versus just focusing on one or the other.
Thank you for saying this better than I could have. I want a nice middle ground .. doesn't have to be gritty, but doesn't have to be earth-shaking either.
I want a nice middle ground .. doesn't have to be gritty, but doesn't have to be earth-shaking either.
If the earth-shaking stuff is at, say, levels 16-20, people who want it will have it, people like you who don't can stop at 15th (or whatever), and everyone gets what they want.
On the other hand, if it's all eliminated and the first 15 levels are spread up to 20th, then you get what you want but a lot of other people don't.
This isn't a zero-sum thing. There is one solution that potentially gives everyone what they're looking for, and a large number of solutions that don't.
I want a nice middle ground .. doesn't have to be gritty, but doesn't have to be earth-shaking either.If the earth-shaking stuff is at, say, levels 16-20, people who want it will have it, people like you who don't can stop at 15th (or whatever), and everyone gets what they want.
On the other hand, if it's all eliminated and the first 15 levels are spread up to 20th, then you get what you want but a lot of other people don't.
This isn't a zero-sum thing. There is one solution that potentially gives everyone what they're looking for, and a large number of solutions that don't.
My apologies. Most of the conversation, at least that I've seen, seems to focus on the higher end answers and less about the rest. While I can understand where it comes from, the perception begins to be that 15+ is the important part.
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It's funny that everyone keeps quoting me and implying that I want to make fighters as strong as wizards. I guess if your arguments are being misinterpreted there's just no way to get people to understand you.
Is there even one quote of me anywhere on this forum stating what is being claimed? Just curious.
I want a nice middle ground .. doesn't have to be gritty, but doesn't have to be earth-shaking either.If the earth-shaking stuff is at, say, levels 16-20, people who want it will have it, people like you who don't can stop at 15th (or whatever), and everyone gets what they want.
On the other hand, if it's all eliminated and the first 15 levels are spread up to 20th, then you get what you want but a lot of other people don't.
This isn't a zero-sum thing. There is one solution that potentially gives everyone what they're looking for, and a large number of solutions that don't.
The question is...what exactly are the earth-shaking things, and do they have to be completely maintained as is to satisfy those people?
these arguments again focus on the extreme ends of the spectrum. how do classes that are considered "fairly well balanced", like non-summoner 6th level casters function at 15th+ level. What are the differences between them and the 9th level casters, and in what ways are casters MORE powerful than these classes?
If a bard functions well in a high level campaign...can you make a wizard function just as well and keep the earth-shaking elements of higher level play, while also bringing down the power level a bit of the 9th level casters?
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It's funny that everyone keeps quoting me and implying that I want to make fighters as strong as wizards. I guess if your arguments are being misinterpreted there's just no way to get people to understand you.
Is there even one quote of me anywhere on this forum stating what is being claimed? Just curious.
If I mentioned it on a post using one of your quotes I apologize, Trogdar. I was speaking of this and the 3600 other posts where we've talked about the topic. I don't think I could point our who specifically said what for a box of cash.
Design Manager
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I have yet to see an AP that actually requires a character to be above Tier 3 in capability, and I know that most of the 3pp I've worked for generally see that as kind of an ideal balance point for new classes and mechanics.Age of Worms is a pretty good candidate, if you limit the party to 4 PCs at the levels recommended.
I think it's still pretty doable with the right selection of Tier 3 and 4s, though I'll admit that it's difficult if you're sticking with only 1pp classes; I suspect a group made up of a Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, and Paladin could probably put together a sufficient array of tools to deal with it effectively though, and I know it can be handled with a group of four 3pp classes. We ran it a while back with a Cryptic, Dread, Psychic Warrior, and Vitalist a year or two (maybe 3...?) ago, and it went pretty well.
The hardest part was probably that there are so many Tier 1 equivalent enemies with options that the party generally just didn't have as many ways to counter or replicate, but when you don't expect to have those hard counters and quick solutions and can push you to be a better player with what you've got.
Kind of related, I see the "it's a team game" argument come up a lot when someone is saying martial/caster disparity is not an issue, and people have probably heard my response to that before: teamwork is when two halves come together to become greater than the sum of their parts, 1+1=3, if you will. I feel like a lot of times when you add (for example) Fighter + Wizard you get 1+1=1.5, where the wizard is actually losing efficacy to help the fighter function. One of the reasons I really like Tier 3 as a balance point is that it generally entails a well-rounded adventurer who has enough flexibility to do one or two things really well without losing the ability to interact with other aspects of the game. I find these classes are often much better at what I view as teamwork and achieving that 1+1=3 equation, which was really how our Age of Worms playthrough felt like it worked out.
When it comes to the upper and lower limits of appropriate PC power, I don't really have a problem with PCs retaining access to 9-level spells, although I think in general they are more suitable as capstones as opposed to becoming available at 17th or 18th level, but that's a small issue.
I'm all for boosting martials, but I really think the system requires at least some nerfing of casters, especially wizards. I don't mind wizards and other 9-level casters gaining access to godlike powers, I just don't like that they acquire these powers so easily and with such a small opportunity cost. This doesn't apply to all 9-level casters equally, and wizards are undoubtedly the big culprits here. In my ideal system, wizards would only ever reach 9th-level spells within a single school of magic that was their focus, or something along those lines.
Many 8th-level and 9th-level spells seem to me far more suitable as lengthy, costly rituals, preferably involving some kind of risk or similar. Maybe I'm just hankering for a system that's far more gritty than the majority of PF players would be comfortable with, but to me everything that makes godlike magic powers wielded by mortals narratively interesting is completely eliminated when said powers are wielded with as much ease and lack of risk as if though the characters themselves truly WERE gods.
Just my 2cp.
Cheers,
- Gears
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The humorous thing is, in Pathfinder, 9th level spells aren't that great. The real power comes from using lower level spells intelligently (like with the aforementioned succubus spying).
My favorite spells in the game that are my go-to toolbox for dealing with common obstacles are in the 8th and under levels, with 3rd-7th being the gravy spot for really good spells that heavily contribute to your success and can be combined together in very effective ways.
Most of the 9th level spells that were an issue in 3.5 were nerfed into the realm of kinda cool but not really all that special. The real 9th level contenders for mad power are gate, timestop, and miracle. Wish got nerfed really hard (not a bad thing but I think it was nerfed too much in some regards), shapechange is far from the crazed beast it was in 3.x, and things like Wail of the Banshee aren't even worth preparing.
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A greater emphasis on school specialization would be great, even if the generalist option was kept. One of my favorite parts of the 3.5 & DSP Psion is the discipline system that forces you to specialize or lose free access to some of the best powers in the game.
Want to shapechange? Better be an Egoist.
Want to mind control people? Better be a Telepath.
Want to know everything with psionics? Better be a Seer.
Want the best overall powers/abilities for a Psion? Better be a generalist, but you lose all the unique power access.
I think my last wizard was a Divination "specialist" because of the stupid school power that gave the bonus to initiative. Almost every spell I learned was from the transmutation or conjuration schools, aside from the best divination spells to take advantage of the free spell/day. That's hardly a specialization.
What do you think are the most powerful spells, or rather, what are the best spells for overcoming obstacles?
I would think much of the movement stuff is good, as wells as the abilities that come with polymorphing. Save or Suck is powerful in combat.
I suspect that the various planar binding type stuff is the most powerful, because it adds almost every outsider that gets printed, some of whom are almost as powerful as a PC. Dominate person/monster has a similar effect, with the additional benefits of total compliance, and remote viewing.