As the title asks. Basically I'm curious if one can increase the save DC of an effect a given magic item might force.
For example, the necklace of fireballs allows for a DC 14 reflex save for half damage. Is there a way to increase that DC of 14? Do you increase the CL of the item? Or is it simply not possible?
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Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Saving Throws Against Magic Items
The DC of a spell-replicating item is dependant on the spell level of said spell. So I don't think there are any efficient ways of increasing the DC of spell-replicating items.
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.Saving Throws Against Magic Items
The DC of a spell-replicating item is dependant on the spell level of said spell. So I don't think there are any efficient ways of increasing the DC of spell-replicating items.
Bummer. Oh well. Thank you for the information.
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If you are MAKING the item, yes...if you have the Heighten spell feat, you can put the spell in at a higher level, paying the increased cost for making an item using a higher level spell.
If it is already made? Nope, unless perhaps you are a 3.5 artificer, but that's a different thing.
==Aelryinth
... or you can just take in account your casting ability and feats if YOU make the item.
Example : Elixir of Fire Breath
Spell level is 2 and minimum casting ability to cast a 2nd level spell is 12. Following rules about DC, you get DC 10 +2 (spell level) +1 (ability) = 13 ... as written in description of said item.
Now, let's say YOU craft the elixir and, imagine, your INT is 16 then DC would be 10 +2 (spell level) +3 (ability) = 15 and that DOESN'T change item price (whereas using Heighten Spell will and then will change everything for the item : price, min CL, even prerequisites so Spellcraft DC too)
Moreover, should you have Spell Focus (Evocation), then you are to add a +1 to DC to the elixir.
Got it ? There's plenty of feats to increase DC in this way and not increasing item price.
Of course if it is to upgrade an aldready existing item DC... I'd say it's too late (meaning : already craft) for almost every item but Staff (as Crimeo said) and Wand IF you access to "Staff like Wand" arcane discovery.
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Zerion,
the magic item does not have your feats or ability score.
A magic item is ALWAYS at lowest Stat to actually cast it in terms of DC, regardless of who the caster is.
All magic items thus have fixed DC's dependent on the spell level of the spells they use. Only heighten Spell can lift the DC of a specific spell effect - or using a staff, which uses the Wielder's stats, if better.
Spells CAST by characters are thus almost always better then spells used by magic items.
Your idea, quite literally, does not work, because it is against the rules of the game.
==Aelryinth
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Nope, there isn't. Spell focus doesn't work, items automatically use the minimum caster ability, and there aren't any rules I know of for using heighten while crafting. (Now, it's a little different for stuff like staffs, wands, and scrolls- there are various ways to improve those.)
It's much easier to penalize saves, however. Witches, Antipaladins, Mesmerists, Void Wizards, and a few other things have reliable no-save options for penalizing various saves. You'll have a lot more luck with that.
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You can use Heighten the same way you can use metamagicked spells.
I.e. it IS possible to put a maximized fireball, a quickened true strike, etc. into a wondrous item. You just have to pay the cost for a 6th level spell, but it will still have the DC of a 3rd level spell for the fireball (14), and the quickened True Strike would be a 5th level spell.
Heighten works the same way. Heightening a Fireball to 6th level means you pay the cost of a level 6 spell, and it has the save DC of one (19). It costs the same as a Maximized Fireball effect.
The cost difference, however, can be pretty big. A fireball is normally CL x 9000, a maximized fireball is CL x 36,000 - 4 times as expensive!
A True Strike is normally x 1000, a Quickened True Strike is x 25,000 for cost.
Ditto Heightening.
The reason you don't usually see this kind of stuff is PRECISELY becauase of the cost. metamagic reducers don't work for magic items. So, having Magical Knack and the like doesn't mean beans when it comes time to make a magic item...you always pay the full spell level cost.
==Aelryinth
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If you're looking for a way to increase the DC of premade items... it depends on the item. There are a few ways but most of them are class dependent. Here's the ones I remember off the top of my head.
1. Staff - Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells.
2. Wands -
a. Wizard Arcane Discovery Staff-Like Wand (Ultimate Magic) - Lets you use a wand like a staff, using your intelligence score and relevant feats for DC (as well as your caster level).
b. Magus Arcana Wand Mastery (Ultimate Magic) - Use your intelligence modifier instead of the minimum for that wand. (Does not affect caster level and does not allow you to use feats.)
3. Rods -
a. Magus Arcana Rod Mastery (Ultimate Combat) - just like Wand Mastery but for Rods.
4. Scrolls -
a. Magus Arcana Scroll Mastery (Magical Marketplace) - just like Wand Mastery but for scrolls (and requires you to spend an arcane pool point).
b. Wizard Scrollmaster archetype - 10th level ability lets you use a scroll like a staff, using your intelligence score and relevant feats for DC (as well as your caster level).
c. Cyphermage Prestige Class Insightful Scroll Cypher Lore - lets you use your spellcasting ability score and feats to set the DC. (Does not affect caster level, limited uses/day)
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Wouldn't a quickened true strike scroll for instance still take a standard action to use though...? Not super helpful.
For custom wondrous items, maybe, but I can't seem to find any mention of swift (or any other action type) as a parameter. Does that mean it's not possible to do custom, or that it's no extra cost?
Generally speaking, metamagics wondrous items completely breaks the magic item pricing guidelines.
Instead of a quickened spell, it would be smarter to create a Use-Activated item which is activated by itself or as a free action (See Boots of Speed).
Use-Activated is essentially a quickened Command Word spell-replicating item, but the price is just 1/9 higher instead of 5 spell levels higher.
Wouldn't a quickened true strike scroll for instance still take a standard action to use though...? Not super helpful.
For custom wondrous items, maybe, but I can't seem to find any mention of swift (or any other action type) as a parameter. Does that mean it's not possible to do custom, or that it's no extra cost?
Nope, it's a swift action. The extra speed is taken care of by the extra cost. Your argument is effectively the same as "A Quickened Spell cast by a sorc would still be a full round action", which is NOT the case. The metamagic takes care of it.
==Aelryinth
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Wouldn't a quickened true strike scroll for instance still take a standard action to use though...? Not super helpful.
For custom wondrous items, maybe, but I can't seem to find any mention of swift (or any other action type) as a parameter. Does that mean it's not possible to do custom, or that it's no extra cost?
Nope, it's a swift action. The extra speed is taken care of by the extra cost. Your argument is effectively the same as "A Quickened Spell cast by a sorc would still be a full round action", which is NOT the case. The metamagic takes care of it.
==Aelryinth
Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer)
A quickened spell is a swift action but the spell completion is still a standard.
Whiiiiich is obviated by the fact it is QUICKENED, which is a metamagic effect that changes the time. Metamagic does that to the default, you know.
If you don't want it to work, that's fine. Just make it Word-activated, so it's a free action, and doesn't even have the cost of being Swift.
==Aelryinth
Command word? Those are typically a standard action as well.
I might allow quickened scrolls in my game, but I don't think that's in the rules.
"Word-activated"? If you mean creating a magic item with a command word, then that is still a standard action.
Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.
A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Whiiiiich is obviated by the fact it is QUICKENED, which is a metamagic effect that changes the time. Metamagic does that to the default, you know.
The rule for activating scrolls does literally say "whichever is longer". It can't be written any clearer.
There is no real application for the quickened metamagic for magic items.
Edit: Gaah! Ninja'd by 20 seconds!
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You can use Heighten the same way you can use metamagicked spells.
I.e. it IS possible to put a maximized fireball, a quickened true strike, etc. into a wondrous item. You just have to pay the cost for a 6th level spell, but it will still have the DC of a 3rd level spell for the fireball (14), and the quickened True Strike would be a 5th level spell.
Heighten works the same way. Heightening a Fireball to 6th level means you pay the cost of a level 6 spell, and it has the save DC of one (19). It costs the same as a Maximized Fireball effect.
The cost difference, however, can be pretty big. A fireball is normally CL x 9000, a maximized fireball is CL x 36,000 - 4 times as expensive!
A True Strike is normally x 1000, a Quickened True Strike is x 25,000 for cost.
Ditto Heightening.
The reason you don't usually see this kind of stuff is PRECISELY becauase of the cost. metamagic reducers don't work for magic items. So, having Magical Knack and the like doesn't mean beans when it comes time to make a magic item...you always pay the full spell level cost.
==Aelryinth
There's no Necklace of Heightened Fireballs. That would be a custom magic item. The pricing guidelines for custom magic items (which are guidelines and specifically call out shenanigans like True Strike to get around fair weapon pricing) don't include anything about metamagic. So you're two steps into house-rule territory. Not unreasonable house rules, but it's still not an official way to increase the DCs.
Zerion,
the magic item does not have your feats or ability score.
A magic item is ALWAYS at lowest Stat to actually cast it in terms of DC, regardless of who the caster is.
All magic items thus have fixed DC's dependent on the spell level of the spells they use. Only heighten Spell can lift the DC of a specific spell effect - or using a staff, which uses the Wielder's stats, if better.
Spells CAST by characters are thus almost always better then spells used by magic items.
Your idea, quite literally, does not work, because it is against the rules of the game.
==Aelryinth
Where did you see that rule ??
Items looted and found randomly are considered to be done by the least competent caster to make it not items you made yourself.
Quote the rule please.
Nope, there isn't. Spell focus doesn't work, items automatically use the minimum caster ability, and there aren't any rules I know of for using heighten while crafting. (Now, it's a little different for stuff like staffs, wands, and scrolls- there are various ways to improve those.)
It's much easier to penalize saves, however. Witches, Antipaladins, Mesmerists, Void Wizards, and a few other things have reliable no-save options for penalizing various saves. You'll have a lot more luck with that.
True, that's why Staff of Power doesn't contain Heighten spells :-)
Staff of Power
Aura strong varies; CL 15th
Slot none; Price 235,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
A staff of power is a potent magic item with varied offensive and defensive abilities, carved from magically hardened wood. It is usually topped with a glistening gem or orb that burns from within with a flickering red light. The staff allows the use of the following spells:
Continual flame (1 charge)
Fireball (heightened to 5th level, 1 charge)
Levitate (1 charge)
Lightning bolt (heightened to 5th level, 1 charge)
Magic missile (1 charge)
Ray of enfeeblement (heightened to 5th level, 1 charge)
Cone of cold (2 charges)
Globe of invulnerability (2 charges)
Hold monster (2 charges)
Wall of force (in a 10-ft.-diameter hemisphere around the caster only, 2 charges)
The wielder of a staff of power gains a +2 luck bonus to AC and on saving throws. The staff is also a +2 quarterstaff, and its wielder may use it to smite opponents. If 1 charge is expended (a free action), the staff deals double damage (x3 on a critical hit) for 1 round.
A staff of power can be used for a retributive strike, requiring it to be broken by its wielder. (If this breaking of the staff is purposeful and declared by the wielder, it can be performed as a standard action that does not require the wielder to make a Strength check.) All charges currently in the staff are instantly released in a 30-foot spread. All creatures and objects within 2 squares of the broken staff take an amount of damage equal to 20 x the number of charges in the staff, those 3 or 4 squares away take an amount of damage equal to 15 x the number of charges, and those 5 or 6 squares away take an amount of damage equal to 10 x the number of charges. All those affected can make DC 17 Reflex saves to reduce the damage by half.
The character breaking the staff has a 50% chance of traveling to another plane of existence (01—50 on a d%), but if she does not, the explosive release of spell energy instantly destroys her. Only certain items, including the staff of the magi and the staff of power, are capable of being used for a retributive strike.
Construction Requirements
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, cone of cold, continual flame, heightened fireball, globe of invulnerability, hold monster, levitate, heightened lightning bolt, magic missile, heightened ray of enfeeblement, wall of force; Cost 117,500 gp.
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Note: Fireball, Lightning bolt and Ray of Enfeeblement are all HEightened to 5th level, thus raising the default DC of those spells. You also need Heightened versions of those spells to make the staff, per the pre reqs.
There's no Necklace of Heightened Fireballs. That would be a custom magic item. The pricing guidelines for custom magic items (which are guidelines and specifically call out shenanigans like True Strike to get around fair weapon pricing) don't include anything about metamagic. So you're two steps into house-rule territory. Not unreasonable house rules, but it's still not an official way to increase the DCs.You can use Heighten the same way you can use metamagicked spells.
I.e. it IS possible to put a maximized fireball, a quickened true strike, etc. into a wondrous item. You just have to pay the cost for a 6th level spell, but it will still have the DC of a 3rd level spell for the fireball (14), and the quickened True Strike would be a 5th level spell.
Heighten works the same way. Heightening a Fireball to 6th level means you pay the cost of a level 6 spell, and it has the save DC of one (19). It costs the same as a Maximized Fireball effect.
The cost difference, however, can be pretty big. A fireball is normally CL x 9000, a maximized fireball is CL x 36,000 - 4 times as expensive!
A True Strike is normally x 1000, a Quickened True Strike is x 25,000 for cost.
Ditto Heightening.
The reason you don't usually see this kind of stuff is PRECISELY becauase of the cost. metamagic reducers don't work for magic items. So, having Magical Knack and the like doesn't mean beans when it comes time to make a magic item...you always pay the full spell level cost.
==Aelryinth
I'm not in strange territory, metamagic spells exist in published Paizo magic items, don't say they don't. Example: Staff of Power above.
Yes, a Necklace of Fireballs with Heightened Fireballs would be custom. It would also be much more expensive then a normal necklace (going from 3rd to 5th level would almost triple the cost, for example).
The OP asked if there was a way to raise the DC's. Heighten spell is that way. Yes, it would largely have to be a Custom Item. But he's talking about non-standard solutions anyways.
And keep in mind I'm not trying to make a 1/rd endless True Strike item. The cost of something like that would be SIGNIFICANTLY higher. Like, add a couple zeroes at least.
==Aelryinth
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.-Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers, Core Rulebook
For existing items, true. I'm talking about custom made items.
Part from what is written, you think a wizard 5 and an arch-wizard 30 will craft the same item with the same DC ? I think not... but everyone is free to play by his understanding of the rules :-)
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Your stats do NOT matter when making a magic item.
There's nowhere, anywhere in the rules, that allows you to bypass the default stats for magic spells. YOU NEED TO CITE THE RULE THAT ALLOWS CUSTOM ITEMS TO BE BASED ON HIGHER STATS.
Since it doesn't exist, you can't, so please stop saying it's true.
If you want higher DC's, your only option is to Heighten the spell, or use a tool like a Staff that employs the wielder's stats. Staves are specifically called out as exceptions BECAUSE they use the wielders stats.
There are no custom construction rules allowing you to deviate from this.
==Aelryinth
I totally disagree, hope you won't mind if I play by my rules (or by my group reading of the rules) ?
Your reading states you use the lowest possible stat, ok, got it.
Mine don't.
I totally disagree, hope you won't mind if I play by my rules (or by my group reading of the rules) ?
Your reading states you use the lowest possible stat, ok, got it.
Mine don't.
CITE THE RULE YOU ARE USING.
If you're playing home rules, nobody cares. Just don't claim it's official, which is what you are trying to do. Even custom items have rules.
If you were capable of making items that used a higher Stat, that would have to be reflected in the pricing rules. It's not, ANYWHERE.
==Aelryinth
Seriosuly Zerion69, you can't base your answers on personal opinions when this question is asked in the Rules Section.
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).
Magic Item rules. RULES.
There is no ambiguousness to discuss. "Your reading" and "Aelryinth's reading" should be exactly the same.
I'm talking about custom made items.
Part from what is written, you think a wizard 5 and an arch-wizard 30 will craft the same item with the same DC ? I think not... but everyone is free to play by his understanding of the rules :-)
So wait.
I am an adventurer in your world. I go to the local marketplace looking for a Necklace of Fireballs. I find one made by some petty 5th level noob wizard and I find another one made by a 30th level arch-wizard. You're saying that the second one has a higher DC for the saving throws. How much more do I need to pay for that, or is it the same price?
If it's the same price, then obviously I ALWAYS need to shop around; I'll never want to buy a Necklace of Fireballs (or any other item that allows a saving throw) from any noob wizard; I gotta go for the best.
But if the price is different, can you quote me a rule for that in the books somewhere? I can't find it.
Or are you just creating house rules here?
(hint: yes, it's a house rule, even if you didn't know it was)
I totally disagree, hope you won't mind if I play by my rules (or by my group reading of the rules) ?
Your reading states you use the lowest possible stat, ok, got it.
Mine don't.
Actually, since this is the "Rules Questions" message board, it's important to make it clear when we're discussing the real rules or house rules.
GMRednal posted the rules quote a few posts above this one. It's simple. All magical items use that simple formula for calculating the Save DC. This is irrespective of the level or ability score of the guy who made it. A 30th level arch-wizard with a 50 INT score will still make a DC 14 Necklace of Fireballs unless he puts extra effort into it (using Heighten Spell, for example, which raises the DC but also raises the price).
Your rule is a house rule. House rules are fine, but you should clearly label them as house rules when posting int he "Rules Questions" message board.