Hi there!
So a player among us is playing a Magus but when he uses Spell Combat he would have a added attack bonus which seems a bit high to another player and myself.
When we asked about it during play he was being really vague. It wouldn't be the first time that he tried to bend to rules without talking it over first with the DM.
Now we don't want to be bad friends and call him out on it when he is actually just following the rules so I wanted to check out if you guys could come up with a way to get the highest possible attack bonus for a Magus.
Some info regarding the Magus
- Level: 2
- Race: Tiefling
- Archetype: Hex (not active yet)
- Attack bonus stat: Dex (which likely means he is using Weapon Finesse or something similar)
- Point buy: No we rolled
Other than that, he uses no potions and mainly only uses damage spells.
So lets say he has 18 dex. He has 1 BaB for being a level 2 Magus which brings it to a total of +5 attack bonus.
When using Spell Combat he should receive a -2 which brings it to +3 but he adds more to his roll than just that so am I missing something here?
A feat, a fact or whatever?
If you give me a number what the highest value of attack bonus could be at level 2 as a Magus with explanation as to how then that would be highly appreciated!
Oh and bring in all Paizo and 3rd party ref material as it is possible he is just using something from a book we don't have.
+1 from enhancing his weapon.
+3 vs. most opponents from Shocking Grasp.
Or just have your GM have him explain his attack bonus.
Enhancing would be out of the question as he is level 2. He simply did not have the money yet.
We haven't thought of shocking grasp though. Can't believe we forgot that one. It might be the reason why he has more than he should but I can't recall if he used it all that often. I would have to discuss that.
Regarding having the DM talk with him, we want to avoid that until we are absolutely sure he is not following the rules. Things like shocking grasp can be overlooked so before we start pointing fingers, we want to make sure we have all the possible facts :)
Enhancing would be out of the question as he is level 2. He simply did not have the money yet.
We haven't thought of shocking grasp though. Can't believe we forgot that one. It might be the reason why he has more than he should but I can't recall if he used it all that often. I would have to discuss that.
Regarding having the DM talk with him, we want to avoid that until we are absolutely sure he is not following the rules. Things like shocking grasp can be overlooked so before we start pointing fingers, we want to make sure we have all the possible facts :)
Arcane Pool lets him turn his weapon into a +1 as a swift action.
Ah yes true but rather that would deplete his pool rather quickly as it often looks like too much. Also +1 only doesn't make it look that much higher.
If a Magus would use shocking grasp on his sword to deliver the touch with Spell Combat, would you say that the +3 would not only act on the touch ac for the spell but also the melee attack from his sword on normal ac? It might be that he is doing just that.
Magus can give +1 to a weapon for 1 minute X times per day using Arcane pool and a swift action, starting at level 1.
And yes, when using Spellstrike to deliver Shocking Grasp you get to add the +3 against normal AC.
So, with a proper weapon and weapon finesse, as a Tiefling, he should be 18-20 Dex, (+4-5), +1 Weapon, Spell Combat -2, +3 using Shocking Grasp.
So Highest possible should be, with 20 Dex, swift action +1 Weapon using Arcane pool (make sure he's not adding that to a masterwork +1 to hit) giving totals of:
+9 Shocking grasp (No Spell combat)
+7 shocking grasp spell combat, and another attack at +4 (+7 if the first missed and holding the charge)
+6 just attacking
+4 spell combat (Not shocking grasp), 2 attacks.All of those with a 2nd attack during rounds he uses Spell Combat, at +4 to hit.
Once he hits level 3 and gets an arcana, and level 4 getting the spell bladed dash, he starts getting to add Int to hit possibly too, so that will be even more tracking.
My 16th level Magus in RotRL has between a +21 and a +35 depending on what I have self-buffed at the moment, and I have only increased my Str to 20 with gear.
Thanks for the info! As I asked a comment before you, would you say that a sword attack charged with shocking grasp will get a +3 on attack bonus against normal ac aside from the shocking grasp charge getting a +3 on touch ac.
Meaning would the +3 affect both the touch ac attack from shocking grasp AND the normal ac attack from the melee based sword
Arcane accuracy is a Magus Arcana that lets you add your intelligence bonus (which could be +4/+5 with rolled stats) to all attacks of the round spending a point of arcane pool. With rolled abilities he could be doing this 5-6 times a day. But I am afraid that he need at least level 3 to pick one magus arcana.
A magus using spellstrike doesn't make a separate touch attack unless they want to. They can deliver the spell as a rider on a normal sword attack, using whatever bonuses to sword and spell they would have.
So: Yes, a Magus who uses Spellstrike (not spell combat, they are different things) to make a sword attack while charged with a Shocking Grasp would get +3 on the attack vs normal AC with the sword. If it hits, it does both the weapon attack damage and the spell damage, you do not roll another to hit for the spell.
If you have a multi-touch spell like Chill Touch or Frostbite, you may add the spell damage to each sword attack that hits until you have used up all the charges of the spell.
Commonly mixed up abilities of the MAGUS:
Touch spells: On the same round you cast a touch spell, you can make a free touch attack with it against an enemy. You may cast, then move, before making the touch attack.
Spellstrike: Allows a magus to substitute a weapon attack for the free attack granted the round you cast a touch spell. Also allows a magus to make a weapon attack on future rounds after casting a touch spell (while holding the charge) and have the touch spell effect the target on a successful hit, no extra roll needed, and if the weapon attack is a crit, the spell crits (x2, even if the weapon multiplier is higher).
Spell Combat: Allows the Magus to make his normal number of attacks, and also cast a spell in the same round as a full round action, all attacks made that round are at -2. If the spell is a touch spell, this grants an additional attack at his highest attack bonus (-2 for spell combat) which can be against touch ac without a weapon, or with the weapon using spellstrike.
Usually the reason to use Spell Combat is to immediately use Spellstrike with the spell you just cast, although at higher levels it is used for things like shield, mirror image, etc so that you can buff without wasting rounds without hitting.
Now, one of the things most people forget on a Magus (or try...
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Are you sure? If I look over the Spell Strike bit it doesn't necessarily mention this.
. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.
As it states that IF it hits, the effects of the spell will be dealt but the +3 to attack is part of it's effect imo.
...A magus using spellstrike doesn't make a separate touch attack unless they want to. They can deliver the spell as a rider on a normal sword attack, using whatever bonuses to sword and spell they would have.
So: Yes, a Magus who uses Spellstrike (not spell combat, they are different things) to make a sword attack while charged with a Shocking Grasp would get +3 on the attack vs normal AC with the sword. If it hits, it does both the weapon attack damage and the spell damage, you do not roll another to hit for the spell.
If you have a multi-touch spell like Chill Touch or Frostbite, you may add the spell damage to each sword attack that hits until you have used up all the charges of the spell.
Commonly mixed up abilities of the MAGUS:
Touch spells: On the same round you cast a touch spell, you can make a free touch attack with it against an enemy. You may cast, then move, before making the touch attack.
Spellstrike: Allows a magus to substitute a weapon attack for the free attack granted the round you cast a touch spell. Also allows a magus to make a weapon attack on future rounds after casting a touch spell (while holding the charge) and have the touch spell effect the target on a successful hit, no extra roll needed, and if the weapon attack is a crit, the spell crits (x2, even if the weapon multiplier is higher).
Spell Combat: Allows the Magus to make his normal number of attacks, and also cast a spell in the same round as a full round action, all attacks made that round are at -2. If the spell is a touch spell, this grants an additional attack at his highest attack bonus (-2 for spell combat) which can be against touch ac without a weapon, or with the weapon using spellstrike.
Usually the reason to use Spell Combat is to immediately use Spellstrike with the spell you just cast, although at higher levels it is used for things like shield, mirror image, etc so that you can buff without wasting rounds without hitting.
Now, one of the things most
The +3 could never be part of the effect, it has to resolve before the effect of the spell happens (damage). It is a bonus granted in particular circumstances while holding the charge of the spell until its effects can occur. The attack is being made by the weapon in question, if the circumstances apply, the bonus should as well. There is nothing at all in the rules for allowing "partial hits" where the weapon missed and the spell hit. It just doesn't exist for this and would needlessly complicate things.
The spell states you get a bonus to hit particular targets when you are attacking with it, this bonus persists until the spell is discharged. You are using a weapon to attack with the spell. Ergo, you get the bonus against those opponents as it isn't countered by any other rules.
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Magus can give +1 to a weapon for 1 minute X times per day using Arcane pool and a swift action, starting at level 1.
And yes, when using Spellstrike to deliver Shocking Grasp you get to add the +3 against normal AC.
So, with a proper weapon and weapon finesse, as a Tiefling, he should be 18-20 Dex, (+4-5), +1 Weapon, Spell Combat -2, +3 using Shocking Grasp.
So Highest possible should be, with 20 Dex, swift action +1 Weapon using Arcane pool (make sure he's not adding that to a masterwork +1 to hit) giving totals of:
+9 Shocking grasp (No Spell combat)
+7 shocking grasp spell combat, and another attack at +4 (+7 if the first missed and holding the charge)
+6 just attacking
+4 spell combat (Not shocking grasp), 2 attacks.All of those with a 2nd attack during rounds he uses Spell Combat, at +4 to hit.
Once he hits level 3 and gets an arcana, and level 4 getting the spell bladed dash, he starts getting to add Int to hit possibly too, so that will be even more tracking.
My 16th level Magus in RotRL has between a +21 and a +35 depending on what I have self-buffed at the moment, and I have only increased my Str to 20 with gear.Thanks for the info! As I asked a comment before you, would you say that a sword attack charged with shocking grasp will get a +3 on attack bonus against normal ac aside from the shocking grasp charge getting a +3 on touch ac.
Meaning would the +3 affect both the touch ac attack from shocking grasp AND the normal ac attack from the melee based sword
There is a FAQ about that:
Shocking Grasp: Do I get the +3 on the attack roll if I'm delivering the spell with something other than a touch attack, such as a natural weapon?Yes. The +3 bonus is not dependent on using a melee touch attack to deliver the jolt. For example, a magus using spellstrike to deliver shocking grasp through his weapon would get the +3 bonus on the attack roll.
posted May 2013
If he has a good intelligence he start with 5 arcane points (4 for int 18, 1 for his level) and very little where he can spend them, so it is difficult to deplete them at second level, you generally don't have 5 combat that require you to use them in a day.
Later, when you start using them for tons of abilities, it change.
A that point the Bladed magic trait become a great boon if you do a lot of melee.
Magus can give +1 to a weapon for 1 minute X times per day using Arcane pool and a swift action, starting at level 1.
And yes, when using Spellstrike to deliver Shocking Grasp you get to add the +3 against normal AC.
So, with a proper weapon and weapon finesse, as a Tiefling, he should be 18-20 Dex, (+4-5), +1 Weapon, Spell Combat -2, +3 using Shocking Grasp.
So Highest possible should be, with 20 Dex, swift action +1 Weapon using Arcane pool (make sure he's not adding that to a masterwork +1 to hit) giving totals of:
+9 Shocking grasp (No Spell combat)
+7 shocking grasp spell combat, and another attack at +4 (+7 if the first missed and holding the charge)
+6 just attacking
+4 spell combat (Not shocking grasp), 2 attacks.All of those with a 2nd attack during rounds he uses Spell Combat, at +4 to hit.
Weapon Focus would add another +1
While the magus is technically a 3/4 BAB class, I've found it to generally have a higher effective attack bonus than most full BAB classes - if that is what the magus is spending resources on.
Everybody is correct in that there are plenty of ways to boost attack with a magus, but the real answer is that your player should be able to tell you exactly what number he is using and how he got to it. It is still possible that he has made a mistake somewhere. If he refuses to tell you, that indicates an issue of a different sort is going on here.
You don't have to ask in an accusatory way, just ask for clarification. Especially if you are allowing books that you don't even have access to, it is fairly reasonable to ask about the existence and explanation of things you might not be familiar with. In my experience, players only get defensive or offended by such questions when they want to avoid answering them for a reason. People who put time and effort into character creation in order to legitimately get high numbers usually enjoy explaining exactly what lengths they had to go to for it.
Be like, "Whoa that's awesome! How are you getting so high? I'm curious to see if there's anything I could use."
Everybody is correct in that there are plenty of ways to boost attack with a magus, but the real answer is that your player should be able to tell you exactly what number he is using and how he got to it. It is still possible that he has made a mistake somewhere. If he refuses to tell you, that indicates an issue of a different sort is going on here.
You don't have to ask in an accusatory way, just ask for clarification. Especially if you are allowing books that you don't even have access to, it is fairly reasonable to ask about the existence and explanation of things you might not be familiar with. In my experience, players only get defensive or offended by such questions when they want to avoid answering them for a reason. People who put time and effort into character creation in order to legitimately get high numbers usually enjoy explaining exactly what lengths they had to go to for it.
Except the OP isn't the GM, it is another player who doesn't think it is realistic. They outright said as much in the OP.
I've had games where the GM didn't even want us discussing PC mechanics or class abilities, desiring we roleplay through the entire way. If it is a "problem" the GM should be the one who asks realistically.
Honestly, unless there's a good roleplaying reason that the GM is in on, players shouldn't be hiding something as common as their attack bonuses from other players. Sometimes one player has a party buff active, and wants to make sure the other players are applying it. There also are plenty of times when players might know the rules better than the GM, and can clear up rules confusion or stop rules abuse. So I don't think it should have to be the GM asking. Certainly, other players might need to be more tactful in asking, but they should still be able to ask.
Really what we should actually be focusing on from the OP is this line:
When we asked about it during play he was being really vague. It wouldn't be the first time that he tried to bend to rules without talking it over first with the DM.
So the player was already asked, and dodged the question. This is apparently a player who has also bent the rules in the past. It's not really a matter of what numbers are possible at that point; its an issue of mistrust between the players that won't actually be resolved unless the magus player speaks up in some way.
Honestly, unless there's a good roleplaying reason that the GM is in on, players shouldn't be hiding something as common as their attack bonuses from other players. Sometimes one player has a party buff active, and wants to make sure the other players are applying it. There also are plenty of times when players might know the rules better than the GM, and can clear up rules confusion or stop rules abuse. So I don't think it should have to be the GM asking. Certainly, other players might need to be more tactful in asking, but they should still be able to ask.
Really what we should actually be focusing on from the OP is this line:
When we asked about it during play he was being really vague. It wouldn't be the first time that he tried to bend to rules without talking it over first with the DM.So the player was already asked, and dodged the question. This is apparently a player who has also bent the rules in the past. It's not really a matter of what numbers are possible at that point; its an issue of mistrust between the players that won't actually be resolved unless the magus player speaks up in some way.
And if it were a problem, the GM should be addressing it, not another player.
It would be like a class room. Where one student didn't believe something and ran up to the teacher to tattle, just to find out what they didn't believe was true. At least the OP went through the effort to see what the expected numbers could be. It still comes down to the GM being the one running the game, not some other player. Being vague isn't being dishonest, and all we have is the OP's word for any of it past that. Not to mention that the OP challenged the +3 for shocking grasp which means they don't have a solid grasp of mechanics anyways. Numbers the Magus can put out surprise people all the time, kudus for the OP actually looking into it before saying anything one way or another.
@ Snowlilly...
I didn't include Weapon Focus in my numbers because a tiefling magus at level 2 only has one feat, and he has weapon finesse to use dex per the OP.
I had originally included it, but counted it out based on the class and level we were working with.
Np.
I usually play a human kensai, Weapon Focus is a starting feat for the archetype.
If you've already talked to him about it and he was vague on how he was getting the bonuses, I'd consider (privately) asking the GM to ask him to add up what goes into them the next time you have a combat. Not accusatory, just, "Hey, would you mind adding up your bonuses out loud quick? I want to make sure everything's accurate." He really shouldn't have a problem with that unless he's trying to sneak something past everyone.
People make mistakes all the time and add things up wrong, or think they have a bonus they don't, or forget about a penalty. But if he's already been evasive about it and has a history of this kind of thing, I'd be a little skeptical. The situation should be able to be easily resolved by him explaining what goes into his bonuses. If he balks, then you probably have bigger problems.