I am hoping that one of the staff members can help with a question regarding fighting with a melee weapon along with a natural attack (i.e. hound archon). My group is questioning the stat blocks in the bestiary with creatures who can use a melee weapon with a natural, such as the hound archon's mwk greatsword +9/+4, bite +3. According to pg 182 in the core rulebook, secondary natural attacks receive a -5 to the attack bonus. The melee weapon in combination with the natural attack is treated as 2 weapon fighting (-4). The bestiary does show the -5 to the secondary natural attack, however, it is not showing a -4 to the melee weapon. This appears to be the case with all monster with melee weapons and natural attacks. Are we to recalculate the final bonuses to the melee weapon using the two weapon modifier, which then would have the hound archon's attack as mwk greatsword +5/-1, bite +3 or should we use the stats listed in the bestiary (which do not have the two weapon modifier)? When does the two weapon penalty apply?
To elaborate, two-weapon fighting penalties only apply when gaining extra attacks from wielding multiple manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes.
For example:
greatsword = no penalties
dagger, dagger = two-weapon fighting penalties on dagger attacks
greatsword, bite = no penalties on greatsword attack, -5 on bite attack
dagger, dagger, bite = two-weapon fighting penalties on dagger attacks and -5 on bite attack
correct.
to calculate your manufactured weapon penalties (such as TWF) you totally ignore that you do additional natural attacks.
to calculate your additional natural attack mods its pretty easy:
Did you perform an attack with a manufactured weapon this round?
1. yes:
All attacks are considered secondard attacks. secondary attacks suffer a -5 Penalty. the multiattack feat reduces it to -2
2. no:
your Primary natural attacks have no Penalty,
your secondary attacks suffer -5. the multiattack feat reduces to it to -2.
some rules to your Hand:
Spoiler:
CRB -> Combat -> Standard Actions -> natural attacks wrote:
Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5.
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You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.
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When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks
Tail and Tentacle attacks would suffer no penalty when combined with manufactured weapon attacks, since they are Secondary Attacks already. The penalty doesn't stack. There is no such thing as Tertiary Natural Attacks.
Also, remember that Monk and Brawler unarmed strikes count as Natural Weapons, so they don't impose the penalty upon your natural attacks.
A good offset to the secondary attack penalty is the Multiattack Feat. In PFS, you can only take Bestiary Feats like Multiattack through backdoor means, such as the level 10 Ranger Bonus Feat or the Brawler Martial Flexibility Class Ability.
Also, remember that Monk and Brawler unarmed strikes count as Natural Weapons, so they don't impose the penalty upon your natural attacks.
...
This isn't right.
Monk Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
The penalties for fighting with both natural weapons and manufactured are not effects that enhance/improve either natural or manufactured weapons, so unarmed strikes behave as normal.
Also, remember that Monk and Brawler unarmed strikes count as Natural Weapons, so they don't impose the penalty upon your natural attacks.
...
This isn't right.
Monk Unarmed Strike wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
The penalties for fighting with both natural weapons and manufactured are not effects that enhance/improve either natural or manufactured weapons, so unarmed strikes behave as normal.
Being relieved of the penalty is an effect, and it improves the natural attack.
For the purposes of whether or not your natural weapons are downgraded to Secondary, Monk and Brawler unarmed strikes count as natural weapons.
This fits the definition of "effect" to the rigorous standards of the game.
Meanwhile, even if the GM rules against this, the fix is easy: take the Multiattack Feat. If this is a PFS game--and the OP's isn't--then he has to take Multiattack via either the Brawler Martial Flexibility or Ranger Combat Style class abilities, still an easy fix.
I want to answer your post more thoroughly. For starters, you hit the nail on the head with your rules quote. This is exactly the rule that I am referring to that allows MUS to count as natural weapons in a Full Attack Action that includes them with natural attacks, so this is the part of the rules that needs to be examined.
I was a little cavalier in my treatment of the word “effect,” sorry. Effect is in fact a very broad term in Pathfinder and can apply to any of a lot of things. In fact, I can't find a game-terms definition of “effect” that is more restrictive than the English Language word.
Google wrote:
ef·fect
əˈfekt/
noun
a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.
But, if you can find an updated, game-terms definition of effect that elucidates the topic, I'd like to see it.
So, inflicting upon your natural attacks that -5 penalty and half your St bonus because you include an Unarmed Strikes with them is an effect. But being relieved of that penalty because you are adding just another natural attack to the mix or because that unarmed strike is really just a natural attack after all, well, that fits the definition of effect, too.
Let's also look at this another way.
Monk wrote:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
I think we agree that MUS count as either natural or manufactured only for the purposes of effects that improve natural and manufactured weapons, not as both for the benefit and penalty of both.
Snowblind wrote:
The penalties for fighting with both natural weapons and manufactured are not effects that enhance/improve either natural or manufactured weapons, so unarmed strikes behave as normal.
This statement of yours supports that, right?
For instance, this ability allows Monks and Brawlers to benefit from the spells Magic Weapon and Magic Fang. Magic Fang doesn't work on manufactured weapons, and Magic Weapon doesn't work on natural weapons. MUS count as either natural or manufactured weapons only for effects that improve natural (and manufactured) weapons. Counting MUS as manufactured weapons in this case does not improve your natural weapons at all, so they wouldn't count as manufactured weapons in this case.
I do not agree with Scott's interpretation of this.
It is true that a monks unarmed strike counts as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon. But a player doesn't get to choose to count it as one and not the other.
So including a monks unarmed strike in an attack which includes natural weapons counts as adding both another natural weapon to the attack progression and a manufactured weapon. So natural weapons would take the -5 penalty.
I do not agree with Scott's interpretation of this.
Cool.
Mahtobedis wrote:
It is true that a monks unarmed strike counts as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon.
Okay,
Mahtobedis wrote:
But a player doesn't get to choose to count it as one and not the other.
Perhaps, but it counts as one or the other on a case-by-case basis to the advantage of the Monk or Brawler. Remember my example of magic Fang and Weapon. It counts as a natural weapon when you cast Magic Fang on the Monk. It counts as a manufactured weapon when you cast Magic Weapon on the Monk. The Monk may not be the chooser here, but the Monk is still the beneficiary.
Since the effect in this case to the advantage--to improve natural weapons--of the Monk is caused by counting the MUS as natural weapons, they count as natural weapons. As far as I can tell, that is what the rules say.
But definitely vet with the GM before you play.
As I said before, even if you are right, there is a simple fix: take the Multiattack Feat. And if this is for a PFS character, I recommend using the Multiattack Feat via the Martial Flexibility Brawler Class Ability, since you can't simply take Multiattack in PFS.
By the way, as you may have guessed, I have defended this use of the Monk ability against many counter-arguments. You are the first person in my memory to make this particular argument. My compliments on your original thinking on the subject.
I am hoping that one of the staff members can help with a question regarding fighting with a melee weapon along with a natural attack (i.e. hound archon). My group is questioning the stat blocks in the bestiary with creatures who can use a melee weapon with a natural, such as the hound archon's mwk greatsword +9/+4, bite +3. According to pg 182 in the core rulebook, secondary natural attacks receive a -5 to the attack bonus. The melee weapon in combination with the natural attack is treated as 2 weapon fighting (-4). The bestiary does show the -5 to the secondary natural attack, however, it is not showing a -4 to the melee weapon. This appears to be the case with all monster with melee weapons and natural attacks. Are we to recalculate the final bonuses to the melee weapon using the two weapon modifier, which then would have the hound archon's attack as mwk greatsword +5/-1, bite +3 or should we use the stats listed in the bestiary (which do not have the two weapon modifier)? When does the two weapon penalty apply?
I think the confusion is where two weapon fighting comes in. In the case of the hound archon he is not two weapon fighting, he is fighting with one greatsword and is gaining the second attack from iterative attacks due to a high base attack bonus.
The Hound archon has a +6 BAB, a bite attack, a masterwork greatsword, and a +2 strength bonus. So, when full attacking with a manufactured weapon he gets the first attack at full BAB + str + mwk bonus (6+2+1)=9 and because of the iterative attack rule an additional attack at BAB-5 (6-5+2+1)=4. He also has the bite attack which he can throw in the full attack with the greatsword as a secondary natural attack (with a few exceptions you can use natural attacks as part of a full attack with manufactured weapons, and the natural attacks are treated as secondary when used in this manner). So the bite bonus to hit is calculated as BAB minus 5 plus the strength bonus (6-5+2)=3.
