Communicating with Intelligent Summoned Monsters

[QuidEst]

Isn't there a trait to get two languages per skill rank? Could be wrong about that, though.

[Quintin Verassi]

Alternate racial trait for Aasimar. Either Alternate or native racial trait for Tengu.

[GM Lamplighter]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

The issue is that the word 'communicate' is not mechanically defined within the context of the game.

Not strictly true - it's just that all the defined methods of communication involve sharing a language, and that doesn't give you what you want.

What *is* defined is that you need to speak the language in order to speak a language. There is no free use for specific purposes, or learning individual phrases.

("Bree-yark!" not withstanding... please tell me I'm not the only one old enough to remember that!)

What is also defined is that you can't use Bluff to pass a secret message if you don't share a language. Ditto diplomacy, and all language-based spells. If such a method of "communicating" outside the rules were desired, you'd think it would have been developed to allow suggestion to transcend language barriers... but it doesn't. Every precedent I can find says that you can't do it. Maybe your GM will see it differently. If so, enjoy.

(And yes, I can envision ways to "communicate" outside the given rules. I can also envision ways to do combat manuevers, attacks, and spells outside the rules. But they're outside the rules, so I can't do them in PFS. That what rules ARE.)

[Tabletop Giant]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Tabletop Giant wrote:

The issue is that the word 'communicate' is not mechanically defined within the context of the game.

Not strictly true - it's just that all the defined methods of communication involve sharing a language, and that doesn't give you what you want.

I think a ruling of 'the only means to communicate is through a shared language' is extremely pedantic and will only be enforced at a minority of tables.

I am looking for a less-pedantic means that will be reasonable for a majority of them. Pedantic Pathfinder is a lifeless game that I don't want to play, frankly.

Sometimes I wonder how some GMs allow their players to walk in this game; movement is defined, but the mechanics of putting one foot in front of the other is never given.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

There is no free use for specific purposes, or learning individual phrases.

The Traveler's Dictionary I linked proves you wrong on that one. It is entirely reasonable to expect a character to be able to blurt out a briefly memorized line of a language they do not understand.

If you disagree with that statement - fine - but then we must agree to disagree, and I ask that you respect that.

[Auke Teeninga]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

The Traveler's Dictionary I linked proves you wrong on that one.

Sorry to blow your bubble, but even with a travelers dictionary, if you have no actual experience with a language you won't get far. I can tell you with different Western European languages (AKA the same language family) the sounds and pronunciation are already so diverse you won't get far. I've tried...

Then again, I know people that can express themselves in twenty different languages. They put quite a few ranks in Linguistics though!

[Tabletop Giant]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Sorry to blow your bubble, but even with a travelers dictionary, if you have no actual experience with a language you won't get far.

I don't need to get far. I only need to speak a single sentence and I do not need to hear or understand the creature's reply. In any case, my 'bubble' in this case was establishing that there is a means in the game to speak a phrase in another language without knowing it - and you didn't pop it.

My Truespeech talkin' familiar will speak the sentence in the correct language to me, and I will repeat it phonetically.

This is a trivial act that can be easily demonstrated in the real world; unless the language requires that I turn my larynx inside out (such as some of those Outer Planes languages - eek), I should be able to parrot a single sentence that was just spoken to me.

[Auke Teeninga]

Yeah, without proper training you won't be able to repeat a single sentence.

(and truespeech is not tongues, it's something completely different)

[BigNorseWolf]

Having been to a villiage where they spoke french, hasania arabic, wolof, pular, and suniki trying to memorize sounds in a language you don't speak is unreliable at best.

[BigNorseWolf]

Charm person has...

"You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

So communication can include charades.

"He either wants me to activate the magical device behind the demon, or shave his back....

"Which one is more likely?

"Coin toss really, been summoned three times for both this week....

[Auke Teeninga]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So communication can include charades.

Different cultures can have very different hand signals. Sometimes they mean the totally opposite thing. I wouldn't go there at all!

[Tabletop Giant]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Yeah, without proper training you won't be able to repeat a single sentence.

Then why can you repeat even more than a sentence with a Traveler's Dictionary? The item - at a cost of 50 gp - can be used to phonetically speak phrases of a language that the user does not understand. This is a PFS legal item that does not require "special training".

Auke Teeninga wrote:

(and truespeech is not tongues, it's something completely different)

I am aware of that; however, I disagree that it is "completely" different, as does the descriptive text for Truespeech. It is different; however it is "as though as if using", so it is not all that different.

Truespeech wrote:

All agathions can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice).

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Charm person has...

"You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

So communication can include charades.

Excellent find!

[BigNorseWolf]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

So communication can include charades.

Different cultures can have very different hand signals. Sometimes they mean the totally opposite thing. I wouldn't go there at all!

I went there! One of the locals managed to do "hey, I know you have that leatherman in your pocket, come help me get the goat out of the fence" as well as "I've seen you with a compass, which way is east its prayer time"

[Azothath]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

... RAW{added a bit} of Summoned Monster states: "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

The key word there is 'communicate', which infers a myriad of possibilities, just so long as you can convey the command successfully to the summoned monster.

So - this is what I think. These are the three possible ways I see of 'communicating' with an intelligent summoned monster.

1.) The big obvious method - you speak their language. You tell it do to what you want it to and then it does it - easy.

2.) If you do not speak their language, things get tougher. Being an intelligent creature, I do not see any reason why a player could not communicate with them through gesticulation and pantomime. I feel such communication could be accomplished through a DC check using Diplomacy or Bluff, and that the DC should be the same as 'Push' for Handle Animal (DC 25).

3.) If another member of the party speaks the language of the summoned monster, I do not see any reason why communication could not occur through a translator; certainly, conversing through a translator is a form of communication, and communication is the key word in RAW. However, I think it is fair for a GM to require one DC check using Diplomacy or Bluff (as 2., above) in order to get the monster to understand that you are using a translator (otherwise, it might not obey the commands given from a third party!).

Is this reasonable under PFS rules? Thoughts appreciated!

as you've seen there will be various methods and thoughts on this.

1) is the optimal no-brainer choice. The caster DOES get to choose what shows up and what template to use. Speaking Celestial or Abyssal & Infernal should guarantee this option for the majority of casters due to added templates. Druids should have a high Handle Animal for Summon Nature's Ally though Sylvan would be faster.

2) Communicate via skill usage. Handle Animal, Linguistics (lol), Diplomacy, and Perform (non-verbal communication such as Act-Pantomime, or Shadow Puppetry).
Handle Animal (if it works on animals it should work on the slightly more intelligent, not a stretch at all but you might need a cookie). DCs for tricks are in the description of the trick and the monster will perform the listed trick. I'd do it at the regular DC as the monsters have higher INT and don't need to be pushed. It's fair to use the Push DC's though if it runs counter to the creatures values or alignment. It's going to take a full round action and then the monster will exhibit the behaviour on the next round but it's not guaranteed. The actions are constrained by the trick descriptions so it is a limited set of behaviours.
Linguistics has it right in the skill description, DC20 for simple messages.
Diplomacy Suggest a Course of Action and Make Request take 10rounds thus are impractical. Diplomacy Make Request "is an additional Diplomacy check" (thus that means you've made one check at the long 10r). The unchained skill unlock at 10+ ranks is what you need to make this practical.
Perform(act out). We are clearly in the GMs gray area here. For Home Games you could assign a DC20 for a simple message with a Sense Motive DC20 for the creature.... within PFS it's not possible.

3) Intermediary/translator. PCs, familiars, and "allies"(as weirdly the monster knows who your opponents are). I'd go with Bluff or Diplomacy here at DC 15+ monster Cha (as he's indifferent) if it's obvious what the caster and intermediary are doing but again it's a 10r action. I'd give it after 1 r if the monster makes a Sense Motive DC 20 (hunch). Generally it's not practical given the time constraints of the spell.

4) spells. Tongues would do it. Comprehend Languages is personal... Share Language/Speak Local Language would do it but requires a casting(Std action) and a touch.

[Major Burn]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I went there! One of the locals managed to do "hey, I know you have that leatherman in your pocket, come help me get the goat out of the fence" as well as "I've seen you with a compass, which way is east its prayer time"

Misunderstood sentence:

Is that a leatherman in your pocket or are you just glad to see my goat?

[FLite]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Charm person has...

"You must speak the person's language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

So communication can include charades.

"He either wants me to activate the magical device behind the demon, or shave his back....

"Which one is more likely?

"Coin toss really, been summoned three times for both this week....

There is a scenario where the 4 player adjustment is "The called creature is not happy with his contract, so he creatively misinterprets orders..."

That plus charades could get hilarious.

[Curaigh]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

I don't need to get far. I only need to speak a single sentence and I do not need to hear or understand the creature's reply. In any case, my 'bubble' in this case was establishing that there is a means in the game to speak a phrase in another language without knowing it - and you didn't pop it.

My Truespeech talkin' familiar will speak the sentence in the correct language to me, and I will repeat it phonetically.

This is a trivial act that can be easily demonstrated in the real world; unless the language requires that I turn my larynx inside out (such as some of those Outer Planes languages - eek), I should be able to parrot a single sentence that was just spoken to me.

Honestly, Tabletop Giant, you have given several examples I would let succeed on 'player creativity' alone. Here is another one. Disguise or Stealth check to have the true-speak familiar hide in your clothes. It speaks, you move your mouth. ...Mmmmaybe a bluff check is also needed... but not likely as an elemental doesn't have a mouth it won't recognize sound & pictures not in sync.

Here's another. Get a handful of masks that hide your mouth with a mouth of their own. Cast magic mouth through your familiar and set the condition trigger to 'when a fire elemental is summoned by Tabletop Giant'.

Other 'other commands as desired' and rounds per level and player creativity makes everything else such a corner case, you will just have to accept the GMs ruling. :)

[kinevon]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Yeah, without proper training you won't be able to repeat a single sentence.

(and truespeech is not tongues, it's something completely different)

Better tell that to all my many choral directors, in my youth and college years.

I do not speak German, nor Arabic, nor Hebrew, nor Latin nor several other languages.

However, I have sung words and sentences in all of those, and more, with only a little bit of work from the choral director. The one who did more also made sure we knew what what we were singing meant. Comprehension helps retention.

So, yeah, repeating short phrases in a language you don't know? Feasible. Done by many people in the real world.

[Tabletop Giant]

Curaigh wrote:

Honestly, Tabletop Giant, you have given several examples I would let succeed on 'player creativity' alone. Here is another one. Disguise or Stealth check to have the true-speak familiar hide in your clothes. It speaks, you move your mouth. ...Mmmmaybe a bluff check is also needed... but not likely as an elemental doesn't have a mouth it won't recognize sound & pictures not in sync.

Now that is hilarious; maybe even my favorite possible solution. It's even better when you understand my character/familiar.

The character is a half-orc named Hunson Abadeer. I was watching a lot of Adventure Time when I made him, and the name clicked. He doesn't have much in common with the Adventure Time character of the same name, but it's still a good name.

Then came level - what, 9? I took Improved Familiar. I liked the Cassisian Angel, so took it. A Cassisian Angel in its 'normal' form looks like a helmet with a pair of wings. This made it *really* close to another character in Adventure Time - that being the 'Party God', who is a flying wolf head who wears a sideways baseball cap and who likes to party (sometimes he parties too much and he barfs, which does 1d6 fire or cold damage). Therefore - that is my familiar - no functional advantage to this mild 'reskinning' - just for fun.

So - by what you're suggesting - I can turtle my head real far down into my shirt, and then have Party God fly over and pretend to be my 'real' head, and then give the creature orders through translation. This makes for a good picture.

It could work. In theory.

[Auke Teeninga]

kinevon wrote:

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Yeah, without proper training you won't be able to repeat a single sentence.

Better tell that to all my many choral directors, in my youth and college years.

I think your choral directors would agree they trained you. You probably got at least one skillpoint in Performance (sing).

Your comment reminded me of this video.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

I had one GM tell me that the INTELLIGENT Huge Earth Elemental I called up would only attack the first thing in the direction I pointed since I didn't speak Terran. Despite the fact that he had been hit three times by the critter JUST past the foe it first reached.

Now, my issue is this. I can't TELL him to attack the spell caster JUST beyond the Gnoll in front of him. Seems to me that the two foes.. the one that can't hurt it due to barely (if at all) being able to beat his DR/- or the one that his hitting him with 10d6 bolts of pain.

[Auke Teeninga]

Thomas Graham wrote:

I had one GM tell me that the INTELLIGENT Huge Earth Elemental I called up would only attack the first thing in the direction I pointed since I didn't speak Terran. Despite the fact that he had been hit three times by the critter JUST past the foe it first reached.

A huge earth elemental only has INT 6, I wouldn't call that intelligent...

[andreww]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

I had one GM tell me that the INTELLIGENT Huge Earth Elemental I called up would only attack the first thing in the direction I pointed since I didn't speak Terran. Despite the fact that he had been hit three times by the critter JUST past the foe it first reached.

A huge earth elemental only has INT 6, I wouldn't call that intelligent...

It's brighter than most Nagaji paladins and they make fully functional society members...

[BigNorseWolf]

andreww wrote:

It's brighter than most Nagaji paladins and they make fully functional society members...

We need to stop letting the paracountess and Data define that...

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

I had one GM tell me that the INTELLIGENT Huge Earth Elemental I called up would only attack the first thing in the direction I pointed since I didn't speak Terran. Despite the fact that he had been hit three times by the critter JUST past the foe it first reached.

A huge earth elemental only has INT 6, I wouldn't call that intelligent...

So you're saying it's not smart enough to realize the sorceress in the corner who just hit him with 3 lightning bolts in 3 rounds is more dangerous to him than the gnolls who hitting him him for 2-7 points per hit?

[BigNorseWolf]

Thomas Graham wrote:

So you're saying it's not smart enough to realize the sorceress in the corner who just hit him with 3 lightning bolts in 3 rounds is more dangerous to him than the gnolls who hitting him him for 2-7 points per hit?

maybe with his 11 wisdom score he realizes he can get killed and get back to... whatever it is rock elementals do.. in the peace and quiet of his home realm?

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

So you're saying it's not smart enough to realize the sorceress in the corner who just hit him with 3 lightning bolts in 3 rounds is more dangerous to him than the gnolls who hitting him him for 2-7 points per hit?

maybe with his 11 wisdom score he realizes he can get killed and get back to... whatever it is rock elementals do.. in the peace and quiet of his home realm?

So you're saying 'no, the rock elemental has to be stupid because you're not able to SPECIFICALLY tell it that the sorceress who just blasted it as it walked across the massive cave smacking gnolls is not worth going for. Because you can't tell it to attack THAT squishy specifically."

But had I summoned oh.. 3 dire tigers they'd be free to maul whatever hurt it right? Cause that's an animal like behavior.

Cause following your logic, all 'wise (11+ wisdom) summonees' Would simply stay still and get killed so they can return home for a brew

[BigNorseWolf]

Thomas Graham wrote:

So you're saying

Nope. I was just making a deliberately lame excuse for the rock elementals apparently suicidal behavior as a joke. He doesn't actually exist here, and just goes home when he "dies" so staying alive isn't necessarily in his best interests.

As fas as i'm concerned, things that are summoned have been summoned enough to understand someone pointing frantically at a specific person, and would even let the earth elemental earthglide under the opponent and come up behind the person: a smart move for a player that remembers they have earthglide, but instinctual for an earth elemental that moves through stone as a matter of course.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

So you're saying

Nope. I was just making a deliberately lame excuse for the rock elementals apparently suicidal behavior as a joke. He doesn't actually exist here, and just goes home when he "dies" so staying alive isn't necessarily in his best interests.

As fas as i'm concerned, things that are summoned have been summoned enough to understand someone pointing frantically at a specific person, and would even let the earth elemental earthglide under the opponent and come up behind the person: a smart move for a player that remembers they have earthglide, but instinctual for an earth elemental that moves through stone as a matter of course.

I did...which is why the big bad fighter leading said gnolls went sailing off the ledge. The GM didn't let me continue the earth glide past them for the sorceress

Awesome blow, fyi, is truly awesome.

[Auke Teeninga]

Stephen Ross wrote:

Speaking Celestial or Abyssal & Infernal should guarantee this option for the majority of casters due to added templates.

That used to be true in 3.X, but Pathfinder templates don't add the languages.

[Azothath]

yes, PFS is simplified. You can still choose what to summon and if you have a tricky task you might want to summon something you can talk to. Seems the easiest choice.
Linguistics is also the skill of choice and that gives you extra languages, so it seems it's a solution that feeds into itself. Beyond that you are pretty much in the GMs gray area with longer times and higher DCs all around.

[TwilightKnight]

Remember it can also depend on where you place the emphasis on the text. If you read it as, "If you can communicate with with the creature, you can direct it..."
That would specifically preclude anyone else, including a familiar from translating or otherwise communicating on your behalf. Where or not that is too restricting a reading is up to the GM to decide.

GM Lamplighter wrote:

("Bree-yark!" not withstanding... please tell me I'm not the only one old enough to remember that!)

No sir, you certainly are not. It borders on a must-know.

[TwilightKnight]

Thomas Graham wrote:

So you're saying it's not smart enough to realize the sorceress in the corner who just hit him with 3 lightning bolts in 3 rounds is more dangerous to him than the gnolls who hitting him him for 2-7 points per hit?

I don't think that is the case. It becomes a bigger issue if the GM decides which enemy the summoned monster would decide to attack. That takes a bit of the control away from the summoner. Maybe you don't want it to attack the caster. Maybe you summoned it to occupy the gnolls while the rest of your part dealt with the caster. Or maybe you need to take the caster alive and don't want to two-fisted bludgeon-beast to pummel it into paste. This of course assumes you are struggling with communicating with it. If you can speak its language or it can speak yours, directing it to change targets is simple.

I think most would agree that used properly, summoning is one of the most powerful aspects of the game that further enhances what is arguably the most powerful ability - spellcasting. I don't feel it is much of an unreasonable expectation that summoners (the action, not the class) invest some level of resources into communicating properly with the creatures they summon. At least a few skill points, or a scroll/potion/wand of [magic] that would allow communication.

[thunderspirit]

Bob Jonquet wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

("Bree-yark!" not withstanding... please tell me I'm not the only one old enough to remember that!)

No sir, you certainly are not. It borders on a must-know.

Agreed. :-)

[Azothath]

If you KNOW you can't talk to the creature... summon it NEXT to the guy you want it to attack... that makes it the easy choice.

I summoned an earth elemental into a wall so it would bull rush the guy into a pit... I told the GM I couldn't talk to the elemental as terran wasn't on my list, but we both agreed that the elemental with impv'd bull rush would naturally do that first, as he was earth gliding at the time. So it's really about constraining the creatures options and knowing what they'd naturally do. I rolled a 2 so after that it was just slam slam slam... but it kept their wizard busy... I really wanted to use the elemental to get the fighter out of the pit but that wasn't realistic at the time so I tried to add the opponent wizard to the pit with the fighter... lol...

[andreww]

Stephen Ross wrote:

I summoned an earth elemental into a wall so it would bull rush the guy into a pit...

Unfortunately you cannot summon creatures inside walls even if they are capable of moving through them:

Quote:

Conjuration

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

[nosig]

andreww wrote:

Stephen Ross wrote:

I summoned an earth elemental into a wall so it would bull rush the guy into a pit...

Unfortunately you cannot summon creatures inside walls even if they are capable of moving through them:

Quote:

Conjuration

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

Then... Druids wildshaped to Earth Elemental can't summon Earth Elementals inside where he is? How about a Druid water breathing and under water? can he summon a Water Elemental? or for that matter, an Earth Elemental? does it then sink?

If I were the judge at the table, I am not sure how I would rule it. Maybe? But the reason I might not has more to do with Line-of-Effect. Can you cast a spell into the stone wall from outside?

[TwilightKnight]

IMO, the bigger issue would be having line of sight/effect to the location you want the creature to appear. Typically, if you do not have line of sight, you cannot target the area. So, I would use that as my logic for denying the earth elemental being summoned to appear inside the wall.

The same would apply to a wild shaped druid. One thing that has always been a point of contention is the ability to see when earth gliding. AFAIK, the ability does not provide any supernatural ability to see through the materials you are gliding through. That would make your line of sight essentially zero and would block the use of most spells.

Casting under water is a bit different, IMO. As long as you have the ability to properly cast the spell in that environment, I don't think would be unreasonable to summon a water elemental even though the standard rules seem to imply you can't. Its the creature's "home" environment so what would be the problem. You might have a harder time summoning other creatures, especially those who's home environment would be significantly different (air/earth/fire elemental).

[andreww]

nosig wrote:

Then... Druids wildshaped to Earth Elemental can't summon Earth Elementals inside where he is?

That is right, they cannot.

Quote:

How about a Druid water breathing and under water? can he summon a Water Elemental? or for that matter, an Earth Elemental?

Arguably not.

Quote:

If I were the judge at the table, I am not sure how I would rule it. Maybe? But the reason I might not has more to do with Line-of-Effect. Can you cast a spell into the stone wall from outside?

This is also an issue.

[nosig]

PRD - Aiming a Spell:

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell's type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell's target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes "You"), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

looks to me like you can summon creatures into areas you can't see - as long as you have Line of Effect...

PRD on Line of Effect:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.

[Tabletop Giant]

Quote:

Conjuration

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I believe, in the case of earth elementals, within the earth is an "open location". It certainly is open for the earth elemental which is the important thing here.

Water elementals should definitely be good to go with being summoned within water.

The problem that remains is line of sight as Bob talks about above. That earth glide doesn't allow the creature to see anything in front of them is very limiting :\

[nosig]

Tabletop Giant wrote:

Quote:

Conjuration

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I believe, in the case of earth elementals, within the earth is an "open location". It certainly is open for the earth elemental which is the important thing here.

Water elementals should definitely be good to go with being summoned within water.

The problem that remains is line of sight as Bob talks about above. That earth glide doesn't allow the creature to see anything in front of them is very limiting :\

Realizing that targeting does not require LOS, but needs LOE?

You don't need to see to target a spell. And just because you can tee doesn't mean it is targetable. An invisible door can be seen thru, but not targeted thru. Fog can't be seen through, but can be targeted thru.

[Tabletop Giant]

nosig wrote:

Tabletop Giant wrote:

Quote:

Conjuration

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I believe, in the case of earth elementals, within the earth is an "open location". It certainly is open for the earth elemental which is the important thing here.

Water elementals should definitely be good to go with being summoned within water.

The problem that remains is line of sight as Bob talks about above. That earth glide doesn't allow the creature to see anything in front of them is very limiting :\

Realizing that targeting does not require LOS, but needs LOE?

You don't need to see to target a spell. And just because you can tee doesn't mean it is targetable. An invisible door can be seen thru, but not targeted thru. Fog can't be seen through, but can be targeted thru.

I do believe you just taught me something new! I hadn't even heard of LOE. Reading about it now. Is there some reliable rulesy way to assert whether any given spell is either LOS or LOE (or both)?

Edit: this entire thread wouldn't have happened if my GM and I had understood LOE. The issue started because a 'Solid Fog' spell was cast, separating me from the rest of the group, who were fighting a big mean white dragon. I wanted to summon monsters to help them, but was told I could not cast through the fog since I couldn't see through it. I then changed what monsters I was to cast to a big air elemental, and summoned it on my side of the fog, planning to use its whirlwind to get rid of the fog. I was then told that the air elemental could not use its 'whirlwind' to disperse the fog, but would just stupidly walk through it - slowly - towards the dragon, as my Truespeaking familiar was not good enough to give it commands.

It was a frustrating game. Understanding LOE would have removed the entire problem. The more you know.

[nosig]

Here is where I learned about targeting spells some time ago Linky.

It might help some...

[Azothath]

the concepts of LoS and LoE are pretty simple. Spells usually need both, sometimes just one, and in a few special cases neither.

Generally if you have LoS or LoE to any part of the square you have it to the square.

Some defensive spells, like the fog series, cut LoS and sight based targeting. That's why they are so useful in defending against ranged attacks. Tiny Hut was put to a similar use.

Classically the wall series cuts LoE (with a "solid" barrier) except Air/Wind Wall. A general ruling would have the boundary at the surface of a phase change (i.e. gas to liquid, solid to gas, gas to plasma) but that's all technical an stuff.

[Tabletop Giant]

nosig wrote:

Here is where I learned about targeting spells some time ago Linky.

It might help some...

That did help, thank you - as did Stephen's reply.

I'm just amazed that I always thought it was LOS and had never heard otherwise until now. I am humbled but glad to know the correct rule!

[Lorewalker]

Curaigh wrote:

Tabletop Giant wrote:

I don't need to get far. I only need to speak a single sentence and I do not need to hear or understand the creature's reply. In any case, my 'bubble' in this case was establishing that there is a means in the game to speak a phrase in another language without knowing it - and you didn't pop it.

My Truespeech talkin' familiar will speak the sentence in the correct language to me, and I will repeat it phonetically.

This is a trivial act that can be easily demonstrated in the real world; unless the language requires that I turn my larynx inside out (such as some of those Outer Planes languages - eek), I should be able to parrot a single sentence that was just spoken to me.

Honestly, Tabletop Giant, you have given several examples I would let succeed on 'player creativity' alone. Here is another one. Disguise or Stealth check to have the true-speak familiar hide in your clothes. It speaks, you move your mouth. ...Mmmmaybe a bluff check is also needed... but not likely as an elemental doesn't have a mouth it won't recognize sound & pictures not in sync.

Here's another. Get a handful of masks that hide your mouth with a mouth of their own. Cast magic mouth through your familiar and set the condition trigger to 'when a fire elemental is summoned by Tabletop Giant'.

Other 'other commands as desired' and rounds per level and player creativity makes everything else such a corner case, you will just have to accept the GMs ruling. :)

Or have a lyrakien use ventriloquism.

[Finlanderboy]

If you could not summon into water then why is their aquatic creatures to summon?

[Ascalaphus]

Clearly "on a surface able to support it" must be read in a reasonable, not absurdly restrictive way. An aquatic creature can be summoned in water and a flying creature in the air, particularly if it doesn't even have a land speed, only a fly speed.

Earth elementals are the odd case because of the line of sight/effect issue. Looking at the spell, it doesn't have a Target line, only Range and Effect, so looking through those we find:

CRB, Magic chapter wrote:

Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.

...

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

And looking at the spell, we see:

Summon Monster wrote:

Effect one summoned creature

...

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st Level list on Table 10–1. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

Looking these over, I conclude the following:

- You do not need line of sight to summon a creature.
- You do need a clear line of effect, not blocked by any solid barrier like a rock wall, to summon a creature.

So you can summon a water elemental into murky water because it's not solid, but not an earth elemental into solid rock.

[nosig]

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock? or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

[Lorewalker]

nosig wrote:

could a earthgliding wildshaped druid cast spells inside "solid" rock? or would he have to move to the edge of a wall to summon an earth elemental out in "open air"?

I personally would allow that summon as legal. An earth elemental does not consider a rock as a solid barrier(more like water) and it is not a hostile environment for the elemental. Just designate the space directly in front of you and the elemental should appear right in front of you.

But this is SUCH a corner case expect serious table variation.

It wouldn't even be a question if you were burrowing in such a way that left a tunnel as you could summon them into the tunnel.