Seems like there is some confusion on whether standing up triggers the "if you move" clause in Grease.
No. Movement is moving from one grid square to another.
mmmm, I see. yeah it depends on an interpretation of the grease spell.
There is a set of actions called 'move actions' to which Move (aka walking/jogging at normal speed) and Stand-From-Prone belong: 'move actions(Move, Stand-From-Prone, ...)'
If you are taking grease to include only the actual Move/walk move action then i can see how it would not affect the Stand-From-Prone move action.
However it could also be argued that grease affects the whole group of 'move actions' such that Stand-From-Prone would be affected. I think it makes sense that a character who is covered in grease summoned by the spell, who is lying flat on ground also covered in grease, would have trouble standing up. It seems to me that this would be a reasonable thing to require an acrobatics check for as a representation of that extra effort.
just my 2 cents
I believe the Grease situation is analogous to 5-foot step language. You cannot take a 5-foot step if you have performed "any other kind of movement". This is uniformly understood to be referencing actually covering any sort of distance, meaning move-equivalent actions are not impacted.
Similarly, Grease does not affect you if you "do not move". Standing up from prone does not prevent a 5-foot step. It therefore should not require you to roll any check if you do so while standing in Grease.
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Let's look at what the spell says in pertinent part,
Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.So the spell uses the word "move." That's ambiguous. Certainly we move any time we take a literal action. So it's most likely not talking about scratching one's nose or drawing a weapon. And we can all agree that moving from one square to another is movement. So that just leads us to ask whether the grease definition of moving requires one to change squares.
My quick search failed to find a FAQ on this, but maybe a dev commented on it some time in the past.
I think from a game design perspective, you'd probably want to require movement from one square to another because otherwise you're having to make a lot of granular decisions. And, it would make the spell move powerful if more things triggered the penalty.
But then is teleporting, still considered movement for grease?
No, it wouldn't be, because you are not moving in the spaces between your starting and stopping locations, you just "Bamf!" from spot A to spot B. No requirement to make any regular movement, at all, so it is even less like moving than standing up from prone, or drawing a weapon.
For Grease, movement should encompass only those things that physically move you from one location to another, including the space between.
Let's look at what the spell says in pertinent part,
Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.So the spell uses the word "move." That's ambiguous. Certainly we move any time we take a literal action. So it's most likely not talking about scratching one's nose or drawing a weapon. And we can all agree that moving from one square to another is movement. So that just leads us to ask whether the grease definition of moving requires one to change squares.
My quick search failed to find a FAQ on this, but maybe a dev commented on it some time in the past.
I think from a game design perspective, you'd probably want to require movement from one square to another because otherwise you're having to make a lot of granular decisions. And, it would make the spell move powerful if more things triggered the penalty.
But then is teleporting, still considered movement for grease?
No, it wouldn't be, because you are not moving in the spaces between your starting and stopping locations, you just "Bamf!" from spot A to spot B. No requirement to make any regular movement, at all, so it is even less like moving than standing up from prone, or drawing a weapon.
For Grease, movement should encompass only those things that physically move you from one location to another, including the space between.
Situations like this is where a strict RAW interpretation (which is still maintain should be where you should START, but not necessarily wind up playing from) falls apart. Taking flight is unarguably a move action. You definitely leave the square. By a strict reading of the rules, you need to, at the very least, make an acrobatics check, to fly away from a greased square. Which MIGHT make sense for a winged biped, but certainly doesn't make sense if you can magically fly.
Back from the dead.
While yes RAI is irrelevant to RAW, except anywhere where someone has a brain (and I guess we are assuming people don't when we use rules questions), 5ft out ruins the movement hindering of grease under any and all circumstances.
For actual RAW, let me reclarify everything since people seem to be unable to piece together everything I have stated as to why "you can 5ft step but go nowhere" inside of grease:
While inside grease, all applicable speeds (in this case land movement; if it were slow, it would be all) are halved rounded down. When you want to move, you must spend actions to gain your speed; this means your movement speed is determined by the actions you spend and any modifiers tacked on (in greases' case, -1/2 speed). Since 5ft step makes no exception to taking speed penalties or bonuses that apply to all (applicable) speeds, 5ft step can be buff/penalized. When you spend a free action to 5ft step, you only go 5ft (unmodified) and can't spend any other actions to move, ergo your speed for any round you 5ft step is 5ft. If you are in a square of grease, trying to move out, because you started in a square of grease, you must suffer the effects of the spell for your movement. Thus we reach the conclusion that while in grease, nothing actually blocks you from wasting the action but, you can not 5ft step in, out, or within because your 5ft movement speed has been halved to nothing and you potentially have to make a acrobatics save to avoid falling on your face.
I'd rule it this way:
OMG! grease, i'll step out of it!
If you realized that's grease, then it is because you are already on the grease, subject to its effects. You attempt to move 5 ft. out, but do the acrobatics check (to move out) and if you succeed, then you move away, but the effects still affect you, so another check (for the spell) and maybe you escaped unharmed or fell to the ground, despite falling on a non-greased square, if you failed, then you didn't move, then the other check and you could fell to the ground on the same spot.
It is not a matter of you entering, crossing or whatever the square with grease. It is a matter that you are already under the effects of the spell.
OMG! He is casting grease!
If you realized it is grease before the square became greased, you must succeed at a spellcraft check in order for your PC to know it; then a reflex save to act, then move or react too late then go with i said above.
But i don't know if that's ok according to pure rules. Just my opinion.
When you spend a free action to 5ft step, you only go 5ft (unmodified) and can't spend any other actions to move, ergo your speed for any round you 5ft step is 5ft.
This assertion is, quite simply, incorrect, and directly contradicts the definition of speed in the rules:
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.
Trying to foist some sort of real-world meaning of the word "speed" onto the rules for speed adjustments is going to get you into all sorts of trouble, of which the "conclusion" that a 5-foot step under a half-speed penalty produces no movement is just one example.
As another example, real-world speed is not measured in feet - speed is distance/time - so saying that your speed when taking a 5-foot step is 5 feet is nonsensical. If you're going to say that you're moving 5 feet in a round, and a round is 6 seconds, so your speed is 5/6 ft/s, then you'll be further ignoring the fact that your 5-foot step doesn't take up all the 6 seconds of a round.
Another example: if the 5-foot step's "speed" of 5 feet is affected by all speed modifiers, that means a barbarian's 5-foot step takes her 15 feet.
Pathfinder speed is measured in feet, of course, as shown in the rules definition linked to above. If you stick to this definition, and don't try to create your own based on real-word meanings of the word, then these problems don't exist.
Well, the problem with the 5-feet step, it is that you are allowed in the turn to move that distance at no cost. And it is not exactly a free action nor a swift, it is part of all you do in the turn; like blinking breathing, turning your head to each side (this is why there's no facing in PF, but that's another discussion), spit, taint, curse, avoiding to put the foot on that dead guy's hand, etc. It is also not related to your base speed, everyone can do it, a fairy, an orc and a dragon at no cost.
Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
Thus, if your speed is greater than 5', you can take a 5' step. One could argue about a creature with 10' speed that has been reduced by half, but this isn't relevant for any ordinary creature with speed of 20-30'. Even with reduced speed, you can still 5' step. You are only unable to take a 5' step if you have already moved, are attempting to step into difficult terrain, are slowed because of darkness, or have a movement speed of 5' or less.
Halving your movement speed is not in this list of exceptions, so it does not prevent you from taking a 5' step. And that means when you take a 5' step, you always move 5 feet.
So who here thinks a merfolk can't take a 5ft step?
So who here thinks a merfolk can't take a 5ft step?
Depends. Are they in the water? Yes.
Are they out of the water?
- Are they hasted (increasing their land speed)? Yes
-- Unless they are also effected by something that reduces there speed like solid fog (ignoring solid fogs direct prohibition against the 5' step), or moving into a square containing a grease spell.
- Are they not hasted? No
Of course the answer really just boils down to: Given their current mode of movement and all factors that affect their speed, do they have a speed greater than 5'? If so, yes they can 5' step. If not, no they cannot 5' step.
But if they can move, then that could kills the purpose of the grease area? I think they can move, but under the effects of the spell, they must succeed to overcome the grease spell effects.
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If you are out in the open, a 10' x 10' area of Grease would be easy to get out of. If you are in a crowded dungeon battle, it may be undesirable or impossible to go around the Grease area to get where you want to go.
So who here thinks a merfolk can't take a 5ft step?
As bbangerter said, if we're talking about on land, with no other factors in play, Merfolk cannot take a 5' step. Their land speed is 5' - moving that far on land requires a move action for them.
You can 5 ft step out of Grease, for all the reasons mentioned above by others.
Moving at half speed does not affect your ability to 5 ft step.
Consider if it did. What if you're under an effect that increases your movement speed such as Haste. Could you then 10 ft step? No, just 5 ft. Similarly, a decrease to your movement speed doesn't restrict you from taking a 5 ft step.
I'm with TOZ on this one.
And yeah, merfolk cannot 5 ft step.
Reading the grease spell and the combat actions and the rule of the 5ft. step, i changed my mind.
First: The spell is used as offensive or support spell; it is not a bad thing per se.
Second: The 5ft. step is not an action, it is part of the actions of the round. The character is allowed to do it, does not provoke attacks of opportunity and she can make it before, during or after her round actions. Speed does not affect it. We can fairly assume she walks, hustles, runs or leaps to make it, even tumble. Just creatures with a base speed of 5ft. or less cannot perform it. Anyway, the PC or NPC moves, despite it is not a move action.
Then reading the spell:
Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall.
Roll it when the spell is cast, except if the PC/NPC readied an appropriate action against it. If she falls, she cannot use her 5ft until her next round, after standing up... or maybe while standing up, but in the next turn either and perform the next check, anyway.
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round
Again, speed does not affect the 5 ft. step. She is moving anyway, so rolls Acrobatics to step out, and steps out if she succeed, otherwise, she doesn't move out and must perform another check...
... (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
Another check, a Reflex save, fail by 5 or more and she falls.
Must she perform the Acrobatics save when moving out?
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
She is within the area when moving out; so, for me, is a yes.
You only emphasized half of the important bit.
Must she perform the Acrobatics save when moving out?
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
Stepping out of is not walking within, so no check needed.
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A video about grease for floor and grease for escape artist checks.
You only emphasized half of the important bit.
Stepping out of is not walking within, so no check needed.Must she perform the Acrobatics save when moving out?
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
Where are the creature feet (or equivalent) when walking out? Within or out the area? Just use common sense.
Anyway a simple trick to step out is, if you are not in direct threat or engaged in combat, just take 10 on the acrobatics check and you are automatically out.
Anyway a simple trick to step out is, if you are not in direct threat or engaged in combat, just take 10 on the acrobatics check and you are automatically out.
If you're not in a combat, falling over isn't a big threat to a PC.
And a lot of armored characters have an Acrobatics skill below zero.
This thread is an embarrassment of the rules forums. FAQ and move on.
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This thread is an embarrassment of the rules forums. FAQ and move on.
Nah
1) There's some genuine ambiguity here
2) No one is power gaming the answer
3) Its not something the devs have already faq'd but people didn't like
4) The explanation for neither side is a rube goldberg esque logic puzzle that slingshots itself around the sun to become its own grandfather.
I have high standards for what qualifies as an embarrassment and this isn't even close! :)
For me they can move but require the check.
We are in the greassed terrain of words ambiguities, within, into, out from, etc.
So for me it is a valid question, not an embarrassment. In fact it is a rule question, rephrase it as "can you give us, on this scenario, the exact rules behind these ambiguous words?"
When you spend a free action to 5ft step, you only go 5ft (unmodified) and can't spend any other actions to move, ergo your speed for any round you 5ft step is 5ft.This assertion is, quite simply, incorrect, and directly contradicts the definition of speed in the rules:
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.Trying to foist some sort of real-world meaning of the word "speed" onto the rules for speed adjustments is going to get you into all sorts of trouble, of which the "conclusion" that a 5-foot step under a half-speed penalty produces no movement is just one example.
As another example, real-world speed is not measured in feet - speed is distance/time - so saying that your speed when taking a 5-foot step is 5 feet is nonsensical. If you're going to say that you're moving 5 feet in a round, and a round is 6 seconds, so your speed is 5/6 ft/s, then you'll be further ignoring the fact that your 5-foot step doesn't take up all the 6 seconds of a round.
Another example: if the 5-foot step's "speed" of 5 feet is affected by all speed modifiers, that means a barbarian's 5-foot step takes her 15 feet.
Pathfinder speed is measured in feet, of course, as shown in the rules definition linked to above. If you stick to this definition, and don't try to create your own based on real-word meanings of the word, then these problems don't exist.
There is no conflict, read it again. If I go 5ft with a 5ft step, then I still "can attack, cast" etc. If we are going to get this gritty in to nomenclature then "movement speed" and "speed" aren't the same thing, but because we have brains we can realize that speed is just the measure of how far you can go based on what you spend in actions; for example, if I say "I double move (my movement speed is 30ft)" but then I only spend 30ft of movement because I couldn't count well, would you say "you only went 30ft so you can still standard action" or would you say "you double moved so you re stuck there."
fretgod99, That not how exceptions work, its not saying "your speed isn't reduced by X" it's saying "you cant take a 5ft step under X". You can still spend the free action to 5ft step, it just gets you nothing. (Btw, anything not listed as an action of its own is a free action: that's why you can choose to not breath every round - and why you can't breath underwater normally, why you can choose to avert your gaze, why you can drop things. Why you can or cannot move 5ft for free every round)
Cablop, Thanks for the link, I rest my case.
N N 959, The issue is that stepping out is either moving within or the spell is worthless save for tripping people and serves no area/tactical denial: if it lets you 5ft step, I can always step out in 1 way or another, I can from there just jump my way across, bull rush my way out, or simply say "jumping is aerial movement, I just jump from my spot because "out (of the grease) is upwards from the jump". This is clearly not how any of this works.
Cablop, Thanks for the link, I rest my case.
When did youtube videos of unrealistic movie clips become a valid source of RAW?
Cablop, Thanks for the link, I rest my case.
When did youtube videos of unrealistic movie clips become a valid source of RAW?
Cablop, Thanks for the link, I rest my case.
When did youtube videos of unrealistic movie clips become a valid source of RAW?
It was more for the RAI of how the spell works (which was used as a support for my interpretation as RAW.
(It's also only unrealistic in the one-man vs 100 fight standpoint. I encourage you to go to your local food store and ask for some bottles of used cooking oil and try to stand in a floor covered in it, let alone step out or keep going from there.)
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Since here
Cablop, Thanks for the link, I rest my case.
When did youtube videos of unrealistic movie clips become a valid source of RAW?
Well, you're a canine; do all dogs go to heaven?
N N 959, The issue is that stepping out is either moving within or the spell is worthless save for tripping people and serves no area/tactical denial:If only one's personal opinion about a spell had any bearing on how it works. If only....
Not personal opinion, that question is locked under Effects for the round vs Effects for the space, since its halved speed due to a spell effect. (Which I don't see how speed can ever be halved for only part of a turn and it have actual baring on the movement, unless we treat half speed as double cost, but been there done that. Logic would dictate the grease may no longer be coating the square, but it's still coating your shoes, so speed is halved for at least the turn, by my reading of speed halving.)
Logic would dictate the grease may no longer be coating the square, but it's still coating your shoes, so speed is halved for at least the turn, by my reading of speed halving.)If only this game were based on logic...if only.
Well it is based on logic, but it is not based on realism. The logic of the rules is that grease slows your movement speed, and that having your speed slowed does not effect your ability to take a 5' step.
(Which I don't see how speed can ever be halved for only part of a turn and it have actual baring on the movement, unless we treat half speed as double cost, but been there done that. Logic would dictate the grease may no longer be coating the square, but it's still coating your shoes, so speed is halved for at least the turn, by my reading of speed halving.)
hmmm? You move at half speed for squares all the time. Thats how difficult terrain works.
Thats how every group i know does acrobatics as well
I changed my mind again. This question is a special case of "can i 5-feet step out of difficult/hampering terrain (and alike)?"
Now my idea is, no, you can't use the 5 feet step, but you can use your move action to go out with no extra speed cost.
People is confusing the rules for calculating the movement cost with the conditions the terrain impose. They are different parts of the same animal.
The speed cost is not the cause of the hampering, it is the other way. So the "within", "into", "through", "across" words in regard of the speed rules are not related to the question.
Then if i'm in difficult terrain:
1) Does it add to the cost of moving out into a normal square? No, it does not.
2) Is the terrain i'm currently on hampering me? Yes, it is.
According to the rules:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.
You lose the 5-foot-step in these conditions in a similar fashion when losing the dodge bonus when you cannot use your dexterity bonus or losing some actions during the surprise round.
You cannot 5-foot-step out from grease, cause the grease is hampering your movement, difficult terrain, and deny you the use of the 5-foot-step.
But you can just use your move action to step out, and use the rules for it, i.e., the acrobatics check to move, but cause you are moving into normal terrain you don't take the extra speed cost; if you fail, the roll a Reflex check to not to fall on the ground.
Now the tricky part, is the spell Grease creating you the difficult terrain? Yes. Why? Real grease makes a terrain a difficult terrain, right?; in this case, the spell is just the source of the grease.
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I still say requiring the Acrobatics skill check as the spell denotes is using that check as a part of a move action. 5 foot or not, if there is someone at the edge of the Grease effect, the character will provoke. (and yes, the move action is used for that round, 5 foot or not)
My. Humble. Opinion. (TM)
Grease still isn't difficult terrain, and a speed penalty still isn't an extra cost-per-square. Your opinion doesn't change that, your logic doesn't change that.
Why not? There's no place in the rules stating "difficult terrain is limited to: option 1, option 2, ..., option N."
^Grease still isn't difficult terrain, and a speed penalty still isn't an extra cost-per-square. Your opinion doesn't change that, your logic doesn't change that.
You should re-read how the square movement costs is calculated. If your speed is halved, then the cost of each square is doubled, if your speed is reduced, then how many squares of movement can you "buy" with your actual speed?
^Grease still isn't difficult terrain, and a speed penalty still isn't an extra cost-per-square. Your opinion doesn't change that, your logic doesn't change that.
Well, it is not a matter of who's logic the logic is; it's a matter of solving a FAQ. We all are giving our two-cents into it.
Why not? There's no place in the rules stating "difficult terrain is limited to: option 1, option 2, ..., option N."
Grease isn't difficult terrain because it doesn't say it creates difficult terrain.
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
compare and contrast with a spell like stone call which does create difficult terrain:
A rain of dirt, gravel, and small pebbles fills the area, dealing 2d6 points of bludgeoning damage to every creature in the area. This damage only occurs once, when the spell is cast.
For the remaining duration of the spell, this debris covers the ground, making the entire area difficult terrain. At the end of the duration, the rocks disappear, leaving no aftereffects (other than the damage dealt).
You should re-read how the square movement costs is calculated. If your speed is halved, then the cost of each square is doubled, if your speed is reduced, then how many squares of movement can you "buy" with your actual speed?
YOU should read how movement cost is calculated, specifically check the Hampered movement table here where it specifically says that difficult terrain costs double movement.
Since grease does not create difficult terrain it does not cost double movement to move through it, rather the character who is affected by the spell has half their movement, but may still "spend" 5' of movement to move 5'
fretgod99, That not how exceptions work, its not saying "your speed isn't reduced by X" it's saying "you cant take a 5ft step under X". You can still spend the free action to 5ft step, it just gets you nothing. (Btw, anything not listed as an action of its own is a free action: that's why you can choose to not breath every round - and why you can't breath underwater normally, why you can choose to avert your gaze, why you can drop things. Why you can or cannot move 5ft for free every round)
Wat.
That is how exceptions work. There is a rule, then there is a list of things that work differently. Those are exceptions. Rules about reducing movement do not mention their impact on 5' steps, so there is no impact. We have precisely one place where the rules discuss the impact of movement speed on your ability to take a 5' step. I have listed that discussion in its entirety. You are only prohibited from taking a 5' step if your speed is 5' or less. When you take a 5' step, you cover 5'.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
***
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
If you have other rules that impact your ability to take a 5' step when slowed or otherwise suffering reduced movement, please post them. Otherwise, this is the extent of the information we are given.
I'm not sure what that last bit has to do with anything I said, but it's not entirely accurate. For instance, 5-foot step is not a free action; it is "no action". Though to be fair, that's an action listed as something else, not something with an unlisted action type.
Grease isn't difficult terrain because it doesn't say it creates difficult terrain.
Why not? There's no place in the rules stating "difficult terrain is limited to: option 1, option 2, ..., option N."
Well... we are back again in the ambiguous terrain of words.
I have to admit, they phrased the text of this spell in a different way to movement rules. But i also note that the rules does not define what difficult terrain is; i mean it is just a way to say things rather than a PF concept.
Then, and considering a discussion of going out difficult terrain, i change, again, my mind:
If grease is difficult terrain, or managed in a similar fashion, then just step out (by either a move action or 5-ft-step) and you are done.
If grease is not difficult terrain, forget the difficult terrain stuff and just use what the spell says: cause you are "within" the grease and want to move, perform the acrobatics check, if you succeed, you move at half speed for the rest of the round if using a move action, or check if your halved speed is still more than 5ft and use a 5-ft-step in that case.
I'd just manage grease in a difficult terrain fashion to not to slow down the game. Anyway, 5-ft-step is not that much movement to break the game; to unnecessarily slow down the game does break it.
to simplify the question, i suggest to simplify the FAQ like "Does grease spell when used on floor cause difficult terrain or not? Then rephrase it according to those rules, or clarify it is not difficult terrain".
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Well... we are back again in the ambiguous terrain of words.
I have to admit, they phrased the text of this spell in a different way to movement rules. But i also note that the rules does not define what difficult terrain is; i mean it is just a way to say things rather than a PF concept.
Its not ambiguous, its defined on the movement and exploration page, specifically on the hampered movement table, difficult terrain is terrain that costs 2x movement. nothing more, nothing less.
once again, pathfinder works off the idea that if a rule is written then that is what happens, if it isnt written then it doesnt happen.
grease does not say it creates difficult terrain, therefore it does not create difficult terrain