So the player has a nice spellcraft bonus and they found a black robe of the archmagi. They detect magic and then he rolls his spellcraft and knows it's the robe of the archmagi.
Another play looks this up in PHB and then asks what color is the robe. Which I say is black and they are like. Don't put it on, it's evil.
Is this considered player knowledge and not character knowledge?
Or would they know it was evil or not?
How can you determine this?
It is hard to play dumb when you know what it does, in those cases where you already have the knowledge. But Your players are clearly using player knowledge (even though such a great item probably is widely known in the pathfinder world), so I feel that one was a cheap shot by them.
So in the cases where they actively look it up, don't allow them.
And by the way, Spellcraft only allows them to notice what magics are at play, and activation words (if any). You could just let them know it has a very high transmutation and low divination aura if you're feeling mysterious.
The players exploited real-life knowledge, but you shouldn't have allowed them.
Edit: this post might be in the wrong forum, General Discussion or Advice would have been more appropriate.
What's a PHB?
:)
Multiple answers.
For one, the guy who made the Spellcraft check should have known this. You don't just tell him the name of the item, you also tell him what it does (me, I tell the Spellcraft guy to look it up in the appropriate book or webpage).
For two, the other player had NO business looking anything up. Does this same player look up monster stats during a battle? Look up spell descriptions when an enemy is casting a spell? I hope not. He also should not have looked this up. It wasn't HIS character's item or feature or class ability.
That said, I wouldn't mind this too much. The Spellcraft guy should have known this anyway and (unless this is a competitive party of jerks) would have shared this information with his fellow adventuring companions so they all would have known, or very soon would have known, which makes this common knowledge to these PCs so anyone could look it up.
And by the way, Spellcraft only allows them to notice what magics are at play, and activation words (if any). You could just let them know it has a very high transmutation and low divination aura if you're feeling mysterious.
Where did you get this?
As I read it:
If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
And
Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item takes 3 rounds per item to be identified and you must be able to thoroughly examine the object.
The term "property" is not defined in the rules, but from those quotes, as well as from the Webster Dictionary, I assume "properties" means much more than spell auras or mysterious spell school information.
Do you have a cite that says you only get mysterious auras?
For two, the other player had NO business looking anything up. Does this same player look up monster stats during a battle? Look up spell descriptions when an enemy is casting a spell? I hope not. He also should not have looked this up. It wasn't HIS character's item or feature or class ability.
I think this is a very harsh view of things. Granted, looking up a monster to figure out a weakness etc. or something like that during play is wrong, but looking up an identified magic item or a spell after it has been cast and is in effect? Those are generally things I would be perfectly fine with players doing.
Spells in particular are in the Player's Handbook after all.
With the exception of monsters, I welcome my players looking up things that are pertinent during a game.
I think this is a very harsh view of things.For two, the other player had NO business looking anything up. Does this same player look up monster stats during a battle? Look up spell descriptions when an enemy is casting a spell? I hope not. He also should not have looked this up. It wasn't HIS character's item or feature or class ability.
Did you read the sentence I wrote after the bit you quoted? I did say I wouldn't have minded it too much in that situation, and included my reasons which pretty much match yours.
As a GM, I would expect players to respect the boundaries between character knowledge and metagame knowledge.
Here's how it might have gone at my table:
Wizard: I identify this robe. I rolled a 35.
Me: More than enough. It's a black robe of the archmagi.
Wizard: That sounds awesome, what does it do?
Me: A lot. Read it yourself in the SRD while the group moves on.
Wizard: (Player uses his phone to search the SRD)
Fighter: Hey, mind if I look too?
Me: Only if the wizard is telling you what he knows.
Wizard: Of course I am.
Me: OK, anyone can look it up if you want, but let's get on with the game.
Fighter: (Looking up the robe) Oh, hey, would the wizard know that stuff about the robe's color?
Me: Yep.
Fighter: OK then, wizard, make sure not to put on the evil black robe unless you want to lose some levels.
Wizard: Yeah, I was thinking that too.
At my table, some of that is simplified. The players always share info so the fighter's player wouldn't really have to ask to look it up, but he knows he's using second-hand info from the wizard. And I WOULD have objected to the fighter's player just blurting out the alignment stuff - that's WAY out of character and metagamey (either the wizard JUST told the fighter about that alignment stuff, so why blurt it out, or the fighter wouldn't have known it on his own so he couldn't blurt it out).
IMO, a good player limits his character's knowledge to what the character would know, and then plays it that way. If he feels like he's crossing the line, or maybe crossing the line, he'd clear it with the GM before crossing the line.
@DM_Blake
Sorry, Sorry. I think I let my own interpretation leak through there. I have always thought the sentence
"Attempting to ascertain the properties of a magic item /.../"
was referencing to the magical auras/magical spells cast upon it. But I guess "identifying" probably should give you a name, too!
IMO, a good player limits his character's knowledge to what the character know and then plays it that way. If he feels like he's crossing the line, or maybe crossing the line, he'd clear it with the GM before crossing the line.
I guess I play a lot more relaxed games than you. At my table we have quite a bit of conversation that isn't in character. The player who has a fighter PC might advise the player who has a wizard PC what spells he should take, not because his fighter is telling the wizard what spells are good, but because the first player has a better grasp on spells than then second.
I have absolutely no interest in preventing that, in fact I encourage more experienced players to help inexperienced players.
On the other hand, I also assume that my players will appropriately deal with knowledge that they have that their character doesn't. I have several players who are going to know that a Black Robe of the Archmage is bad juju without looking it up. If the only character that knows that elects to keep it a secret, they won't have their characters act on knowledge that their characters don't have.
Completely separate from that though, that whenever you are dealing with a magic item or spellcaster that decides to go with an all black look, chances are it is evil. It doesn't take a genius to guess that the black robe isn't a symbol of good.
I'm confused. If he passed his spellcraft check to identify, he knows what it is. Why shouldn't they look it up and assume knowledge of everything the entry in the book says? The way they roleplayed it was weird and implies they thought they were cheating even though they didn't need to... so you may still want to have a chat. But the caster already had that information legit.
I disagree with this. I don't think that the player/character should gain complete knowledge of what the item is including the name.
For example, let's take the following item; Necklace of Strangulation
It's CL is 18, So the spellcraft is DC 15 + 18 = 33
Party is exploring some old ruins, you stumble upon a decayed body.
We use detect magic.
The body has a necklace the radiates magic.
It appears to be a wondrous piece of magical jewelry.
I'll use spellcraft, will any help me.
Your Elven wizard is 5th level, has skill focus in spellcraft and has spellcraft with 5 ranks. So spellcraft would be 9 currently.
2 party members with spellcraft also decide to aid him, and roll over 10, so another +4.
Wizard rolls a 20, with +13, My total is 33. Tell me everything.
Do you read him this?
A necklace of strangulation appears to be a wondrous piece of magical jewelry. When placed on the neck, the necklace immediately tightens, dealing 6 points of damage per round. It cannot be removed by any means short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle and remains clasped around the victim's throat even after his death. Only when he has decayed to a dry skeleton (after approximately 1 month) does the necklace loosen, ready for another victim.
To me, I would give them strong conjuration, but I would say you noticed that even as a skeleton the necklace seemed very tight around his neck. Tighter than normal.
What happened to bringing the item to large city, finding someone in town to help identity these wonderous items?
Wizard rolls a 20, with +13, My total is 33. Tell me everything.
Do you read him this?
A necklace of strangulation appears to be a wondrous piece of magical jewelry. When placed on the neck, the necklace immediately tightens, dealing 6 points of damage per round. It cannot be removed by any means short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle and remains clasped around the victim's throat even after his death. Only when he has decayed to a dry skeleton (after approximately 1 month) does the necklace loosen, ready for another victim.
Yes.
He passed the skill check, so he get to avoid the trap.
I have some nostalgia for games with no 'Perception' or 'Find Trap' skill, where you identify dangers by poking everything with 10 foot poles, but Pathfinder is a game where passing skill checks gets things done.
What happened to bringing the item to large city, finding someone in town to help identity these wonderous items?
Boring. And what's the guy in town going to do that the Wizard can't?
What happened to bringing the item to large city, finding someone in town to help identity these wonderous items?Boring. And what's the guy in town going to do that the Wizard can't?
That's the aspect of the role playing within the campaign. The interaction within the world.
Lots of potential.
You find an old sage, he's willing to help you truly identify the item but you must perform a task for him.
You can the these tasks into the module/storyline of the campaign your running. It helps introduce information that the players needs but are missing and your sitting there wondering how do I provide them this information without just saying, here it is, just to carry on.
I use the DM 4th Edition D&D Monday night games at the local game shop. It was those pre-made modules, that you complete in 4 hours.
You did this encounter, then this one, then skill challenge, and final encounter. It lacked role-playing. It was too scripted.
Pulling some of this, especially when characters are level 10+ and there spellcraft rolls are well into the 30's
I didn't even factor in ability score in that roll above.
Take a level 10-12 character
Level 10 - Spellcraft is rank 10, + 2 skill focus, +2 average ability your at minimum 14, potentially 18, +2 elven, another +2 if high int
Level 12 - Spellcraft is rank 12, + 2 skill focus, +2 average ability your at minimum 16, potentially 20, +2 elven, another +2 if high int
Then the question comes. What if they fail? Can they retry? How long do they wait? Or does another member try? if so, since they failed, can they aid this person?
That's the aspect of the role playing within the campaign. The interaction within the world.
Lots of potential.
You find an old sage, he's willing to help you truly identify the item but you must perform a task for him.
In a game where you're often finding magic items by the sack-load, getting an item identified isn't the most interesting motivation for a quest. ("You have slain the Jabberwock! As a reward, I will tell you what you wanted to know: it's an Amulet of Natural Armor +1.")
I'd rather make something up where the role-playing interaction is built in from the start. "The court spymaster will put in a word for you to be granted lands, if you'll help him out by infiltrating the assassin's guild."
Then the question comes. What if they fail? Can they retry? How long do they wait? Or does another member try? if so, since they failed, can they aid this person?
Can they retry? How long do they wait?
No, you cannot try again until tomorrow.
Retry? When using detect magic or identify to learn the properties of magic items, you can only attempt to ascertain the properties of an individual item once per day. Additional attempts reveal the same results.
Can another member try?
Of course, there are no limits to how many people can try, other than each is limited to once/day.
Can another person help with Spellcraft using Aid Another?
No, probably not:
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
Only one person can cast the Detect Magic spell and see the results. If a second person casts Detect Magic, he sees his OWN results. Their own magic affects them individually. Just like two rogues cannot pick the same lock at the same time, two wizards cannot identify the same item at the same time (technically they can, separately, identify it at the same time but not together with Aid Another). I suppose another GM could interpret this differently, and it's entirely up to each GM when to apply and when to deny Aid Another.
So, (at least for me), nobody is aiding on Spellcraft checks to identify properties of magical items, and each person can try only once per day.
You find an old sage, he's willing to help you truly identify the item but you must perform a task for him.
Anybody with a Detect Magic cantrip and 1 rank in Spellcraft can identify a +1 sword or a +1 Cloak of Resistance. It's built right into the system so PCs don't have to leave the dungeon and go to town after every day or two of adventuring.
I save the old sage in town for that exotic item that the group cannot identify, custom magical items with secret powers (I like to have some magical items created with a permanent Magic Aura spell on them), and especially for artifacts (Detect Magic just doesn't tell you what you need to know on these bad boys).
I'm confused. If he passed his spellcraft check to identify, he knows what it is. Why shouldn't they look it up and assume knowledge of everything the entry in the book says? The way they roleplayed it was weird and implies they thought they were cheating even though they didn't need to... so you may still want to have a chat. But the caster already had that information legit.
I disagree with this. I don't think that the player/character should gain complete knowledge of what the item is including the name.
For example, let's take the following item; Necklace of Strangulation
It's CL is 18, So the spellcraft is DC 15 + 18 = 33Party is exploring some old ruins, you stumble upon a decayed body.
We use detect magic.
The body has a necklace the radiates magic.
It appears to be a wondrous piece of magical jewelry.
I'll use spellcraft, will any help me.Your Elven wizard is 5th level, has skill focus in spellcraft and has spellcraft with 5 ranks. So spellcraft would be 9 currently.
2 party members with spellcraft also decide to aid him, and roll over 10, so another +4.Wizard rolls a 20, with +13, My total is 33. Tell me everything.
Do you read him this?
A necklace of strangulation appears to be a wondrous piece of magical jewelry. When placed on the neck, the necklace immediately tightens, dealing 6 points of damage per round. It cannot be removed by any means short of a limited wish, wish, or miracle and remains clasped around the victim's throat even after his death. Only when he has decayed to a dry skeleton (after approximately 1 month) does the necklace loosen, ready for another victim.To me, I would give them strong conjuration, but I would say you noticed that even as a skeleton the necklace seemed very tight around his neck. Tighter than normal.
What happened to bringing the item to large city, finding someone in town to help identity these wonderous items?
You're forgetting that a Necklace of Strangulation is a cursed item. There are specific rules for identifying those:
Identifying Cursed Items: Cursed items are identified like any other magic item with one exception: unless the check made to identify the item exceeds the DC by 10 or more, the curse is not detected. If the check is not made by 10 or more, but still succeeds, all that is revealed is the magic item's original intent. If the item is known to be cursed, the nature of the curse can be determined using the standard DC to identify the item.
If the player rolled a 33 on their spellcraft check the Necklace would have appeared to be some other magical necklace, like a Necklace of Fireballs or a Periapt of Health. They would need to roll a 43 to properly identify it as a Necklace of Strangulation.
* Normal magic item + Detect Magic and a failed Spellcraft check = you cant identify it. Retry tomorrow.
* Normal magic item + Detect Magic and a passed Spellcraft check = you know the properties of the item. Not just some, but all. You can quiet literally let the player look it up in the book.
-
* Cursed magic item + Detect Magic and a failed Spellcraft check = you cant identify it. Retry tomorrow.
* Cursed magic item + Detect Magic and a passed Spellcraft check, but not high enough for the curse = you think the item is a normal version of what it pretends to be. Dangerous.
* Cursed magic item + Detect Magic and a passed Spellcraft check, and it is high enough for the curse = you identify the item as cursed.
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* Artifact + Detect Magic and Spellcraft = know the auras, but no properties. For this you need research and higher level Spells. ANd even then it can be hard to fully find out what it does.
This are the kind of items you can quest for to identify. Not a Ring of Protection +1. Pathfinder is high magic. These normal magic items you find a dozend+ in a normal dungeon run.
The necklace of strangulation is kind of a dumb cursed item and not a good example, because unlike almost every other actual cursed item in the world, it doesn't have any alluring qualities to detect short of the curse if you detect less than normal DC + 10. More normally, a cursed item is still also a gooditem underneath, like a ring of protection +2, which then also has a curse on it, so if you detect the DC at just 2 over normal DC, you hear all details about how a ring of prot +2 works, but nothing about the curse, thus making you want to put it on. Whereas not making a high enough check for the cusre (DC but not DC + 10) and hearing "this is some shiny jewelry that doesn't really do anything" sounds like a one way ticket into my backpack to sell later, not something to put on.
Quote:
If the player rolled a 33 on their spellcraft check the Necklace would have appeared to be some other magical necklace, like a Necklace of Fireballs or a Periapt of Health.
Perhaps this is what they meant "fill in your own other necklace" I guess. But you'd have to like... pick one of exactly the right CL for it to match up. So I'm not sure that is what they meant. Good way to make it work regardless though.
Actually, if you read the section on cursed items, they are usually created because someone made a bad mistake in creating another magic item.
If the check is not made by 10 or more, but still succeeds, all that is revealed is the magic item's original intent.
If the person who made the Necklace of Strangulation intended to make a Necklace of Fireballs instead then that is what the Necklace of Strangulation would appear to be.
This is why the stat blocks for all cursed items list a normal magic item under the item creation section. That magic item is what a cursed item appears to be to a insufficient spellcraft check.
I do admit that this is a bit of an awkward mechanic, however, as some of the things in the stat blocks really don't make sense.
If the person who made the Necklace of Strangulation intended to make a Necklace of Fireballs instead then that is what the Necklace of Strangulation would appear to be.This is why the stat blocks for all cursed items list a normal magic item under the item creation section. That magic item is what a cursed item appears to be to a insufficient spellcraft check.
So if this was the case and a player wants to create a necklace of fireball. Do I roll his craft check then and not tell him if he succeeds or not?
Would he know if he succeeded?
So if this was the case and a player wants to create a necklace of fireball. Do I roll his craft check then and not tell him if he succeeds or not?If the person who made the Necklace of Strangulation intended to make a Necklace of Fireballs instead then that is what the Necklace of Strangulation would appear to be.
This is why the stat blocks for all cursed items list a normal magic item under the item creation section. That magic item is what a cursed item appears to be to a insufficient spellcraft check.
Sure, you can. I would.
But I've never had a player roll the Spellcraft check. They ALWAYS use Take-10. That way they never fail.
If someone wants to make a magical item that is so hard that they can't succeed with Take-10, then they don't even try to make that item - nobody wants to spend many thousands of GP and many days (maybe weeks) of time on something that has, say, a 40% chance to succeed and a 60% to completely fail and waste all their time and money. At least, I've never seen a player try that, ever, but I have seen them decide to make something, realize how hard it is, then change their mind to make something easier. They always do.
But, if for some reason, you actually do have a player who doesn't want a guaranteed "no fail, always succeed" process and that crazy player actually likes the idea of risking all his time and money on a single random roll, then you probably should roll it behind your screen so he doesn't know if his item is cursed.
Then again, you and the player had better be good friends. When he makes a Necklace of Fireballs and puts it on and it strangles him to death, he's going to be pissed. Really pissed. Like flip over the table pissed. So I hope you guys are good friends, otherwise he's going to think you deliberately screwed him over because you're a jerk GM. If you're not, he'll still think you are.
So there is a better way. Plan it all out before the roll. Say to him:
"OK, there are three possibilities here. One, suppose the crafting works. What will you do?" He'll probably say something like "I put on my new necklace and go adventuring". Then you ask "Two, the roll fails and your item is worthless junk, what do you do?" He'll probably say something like "I cry and lament the loss of my money and the waste of my time, then go to the pub and get drunk, then the next day I start again." Fine. Then you ask "Three, you might make a cursed necklace but your character THINKS it's real, so he would treat it just like the first question, put it on and go adventuring, right?"
Now the player might say "No way, I wouldn't do that, I would throw it away!" Remind him that his character THINKS it's a real necklace of fireballs and that he wanted to wear it to go adventuring, so he should wear the cursed one too, right? Any reasonable person should agree. Also, he might realize the danger and say something like "I would cast Identify and examine the item I just made to see if it worked." Great. Now he's trying to save his life, but clarify "Cursed items are known to fool even the best Idenify spell. It might be cursed and your Identify might still reveal only that it is a real necklace of fireballs. Would you wear it to go adventuring then?"
Any reasonable player would probably agree. If not, ask him why not? Why would a wizard go to all the trouble to make this item and then not use it? Get him to be reasonable.
Once he's reasonable, let him make the rolls and then insist he does what he agreed on. If he rolls a cursed item and then his Identify (if he decided to do it) fails, then he must wear the necklace of strangulation and die. Too bad. Cursed items are like that.
Just wait until your paranoid casters are hiring local farm kids to test all the items they make, just in case it's cursed; they'd rather kill the farm kid than themselves...
Would he know if he succeeded?If the person who made the Necklace of Strangulation intended to make a Necklace of Fireballs instead then that is what the Necklace of Strangulation would appear to be.
This is why the stat blocks for all cursed items list a normal magic item under the item creation section. That magic item is what a cursed item appears to be to a insufficient spellcraft check.
No. He wouldn't. See my post above.