Hello everyone, I am Viveka and I have a question for those who know how to build completely broken characters that make GMs want to pull their hair out. So I am playing a
Tiefling
Fighter
Specialization: Armor Master
Take a look here----> http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/armor-master
So my question if how to I make him an over powered Meat Shield.
If you have the time this is going to be a long, long, long term game with us going on the Slow experience path all the way to 20th level and I would like the feats all the way from 1-20 in order of how they should or how you would pick them.
Side note, my GM is kind enough to let me use Pathfinder AND D&D 3.5 feats. So you can pick any from either system, (Just let me know where to find them for future reference.
I would like the character to have HIGH AC as well as High Saves, and some decent Melee Damage (Longsword)
This is going to depend significantly on your party composition. The biggest problem is how you intend to actually leverage your high defenses into a meaningful combat advantage. Monsters are under no obligation to actually attack you instead of the other party members, so unless you've got some solid party tactics backing this approach or your entire campaign involves nothing but tight corridors, high AC on its own doesn't actually do as much as you want it to.
In any case, I'd say start by ditching the armor master archetype. It gives up way too much for how little you're getting in return, plus it leaves you ineligible for all of the best Fighter archetypes. Personally if I were going to build a high AC fighter, my starting point would be either the Mutation Warrior archetype or an Alchemist dip for vestigial arm. This allows you to use a shield and a two-handed weapon at the same time, and with heavier shields also alleviates the problem of actions that require a free hand.
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To pull this off you will need layered defenses and high Saves. This means you need something other then a standard fighter. Their are multiple options to do this. Most will involve getting more then one ability modifier to AC, and not using armor.
Class Total Levels
Ranger 16 (Full BAB and 6 skill ranks per level.)
Monk 1 (Wis Mod to AC, and Dodge as a bonus feat.)
Unchained Rogue 3 (Dex to damage, Evasion)
I would've honestly suggested a Divine Defender Paladin if we are going for an "I'm Invincible and You Can't Hurt Me" sort of character. But let's paint the lipstick on the pig, shall we?
You can go Dexterity-based with this build if you want, using an Aldori Dueling Sword to Finesse with (it's basically a Longsword with extra stuff that requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency), but then you run into Encumberance issues, since you will probably want to be wearing Heavy Armor and making use of the Damage Reduction feature.
Here's a concept to attempt. Let's presume 20 point buy:
Strength - 10
Dexterity - 20 (18 + 2)
Constitution - 14
Intelligence - 13 (11 + 2)
Wisdom - 10
Charisma - 5 (7 - 2)
Put points into Dexterity as much as possible.
+5 Mithril Tatami-Do with Armor Training IV and the Comfort property (5,000 gold cost) results in: 9 Maximum Dexterity Bonus, 0 ACP, weighs 22.5 pounds, and 12 AC, = 21 AC total possible to gain, 9 of which applies to Touch. Your Armor Bonus to AC would cap off at 28 Dexterity (though increasing it does make your Reflex Saves go through the roof, and being Dexterity-based, allows you to add it to Attack and Damage).
Next, tack on a +5 Living Steel Buckler (there's a reason for this in the build), which gives a +6 AC, weighs 5 pounds, and causes enemies to potentially break/destroy their weapons if they roll a 1 to hit you. (It's not the greatest, but Mithril is practically deadweight, and Adamantine does nothing for shields outside of being usable as a weapon.)
Lastly, a +5 Adamantine Aldori Dueling Sword, which allows you to use it with Finesse, and is therefore grounds for using it with the Slashing Grace feat, and can basically break down anything that isn't also Adamantine.
So, here's a basic feat breakdown that you can expect for this sort of build: (* = Bonus)
1. Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword)*, Weapon Finesse
2. Weapon Focus (Aldori Dueling Sword)*
3. Slashing Grace
4. Piranha Strike*
5. Shield Focus
6. Shield Specialization*
7. Combat Expertise
8. Combat Reflexes*
9. Iron Will
10. Dodge*
11. Improved Unarmed Strike
12. Crane Style*
13. Crane Wing
14. Crane Riposte*
15. Armor of the Pit
16. Greater Shield Focus*
17. Greater Shield Specialization
18. Weapon Specialization (Aldori Dueling Sword)*
19. Greater Weapon Focus (Aldori Dueling Sword)
20. Greater Weapon Specialization (Aldori Dueling Sword)*
Obviously, my organization skills, especially when it comes to feat selections, are crap past the "bare essentials" of what you need to function. The build doesn't come online until level 3, as far as being effective in melee is concerned, and its extreme abilities aren't until past level 12 (no offense).
Slashing Grace allows you to Finnesse with a given weapon and deal Dexterity to damage with it. Tack on Piranha Strike, and you're competent like any other given Strength-based Martial. Piranha Strike is a Dexterity-based version of Power Attack, so no 13 Strength is required for it. The gimmick, though, is that you cannot use TWF, use Natural Weapons, such as Claws or Unarmed Strikes, or have anything taking up your off-hand. This is the reason why you use a Buckler, as there is a FAQ that clarifies that Bucklers get the green card. I can cite it if you need me to, but it's fairly easy to find otherwise.
The Crane Style feat chain, although reduced, can easily make your survivability greater. Unfortunately, it requires having a "dead" feat in order to take them, but since it reduces your penalties to hit for Fighting Defensively (as well as makes your Fighting Defensively/Total Defense options more attractive), it's worth it.
Combat Expertise, everyone says is a Feat Tax. But, if you want to be good at your job of staying alive and having AC, Combat Expertise is the way to go.
Armor of the Pit is a Tiefling-only feat that provides a +2 Natural Armor bonus to AC. It's not the greatest, but it scales better than any other flat-AC option for feats out there.
You'll want to be putting ranks into Acrobatics and Perception. At least 3 ranks in Acrobatics, as this increases your Fighting Defensively/Total Defense option effectiveness. You'll have an extra 3rd one to put into any other skill of your choice. (I'd suggest not being the party face.)
Keep in mind that you'll have to travel light and that you won't be that great for the first few levels; if you can grin and bear the first 2 levels, it becomes smoother sailing from there.
If you are allowed access to character traits to begin with (most players start with 2 character traits), a Fighter-Only trait (Defender of the Society) provides a +1 Trait bonus to AC when wearing Medium/Heavy Armor, and Indomitable Faith provides a +1 Trait bonus to Will Saves, one of your most crucial flaws. Another option involves a trait that can reduce the penalty to-hit from Combat Expertise by 1.
So, here's a basic numbers breakdown for what you're looking at by the endgame, assuming Big 6 is maxed, relevant tomes are at provided to bring you to maximum power, you're in full engage mode, and enhancement bonuses are included in each primary effect (i.e. Natural Armor and Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor are combined for simplicity):
DEFENSE
ARMOR CLASS
10 (Base) + 9 (Dex) + 12 (Armor) + 8 (Shield) + 1 (Dodge) + 1 (Insight) + 1 (Luck) + 5 (Deflection) + 8 (Fighting Defensively) + 6 (Combat Expertise) + 7 (Natural) = Regular AC. Flat-footed AC is 44. Touch AC is 47. DR 12/- applies as well. Fairly solid defenses, considering.
CMB
Sunder/Trip/Disarm Attempts: 20 (BAB) + 13 (Dex) + 5 (Enhancement) = 38. Other maneuvers are at 23.
CMD
10 (Base) + 20 (BAB) + 13 (Dex) + 3 (Str) + 3 (Shield) + 1 (Insight) + 1 (Luck) + 5 (Deflection) + 8 (Fighting Defensively) + 6 (Combat Expertise) = regular CMD. (This can be higher with a few items, but not including them for simplicity purposes, as it require combining magic items together. There are rules for it, but again, complications.)
SAVES
Fortitude: 12 (Base) + 7 (Con) + 5 (Resist) + 1 (Luck) = 25
Reflex: 6 (Base) + 13 (Dex) + 5 (Resist) + 1 (Luck) = 25
Will: 6 (Base) + 2 (Feat) 5 (Wis) + 5 (Resist) + 1 (Luck) = 19
Will Save is a little low. But otherwise not horrible, and can be made up for with a weapon property and a combined head item.
HP
17 (Base) + 5.5 * 19 (Average Hit Dice/Level) + 133 (Con/Level) = 254. With retraining for max Hit Dice rolls, you're looking at ~340 HP.
OFFENSE
To-Hit
20 (BAB) + 5 (Enhancement) + 13 (Dex) + 1 (Competence) + 2 (Weapon Focii) - 6 (Piranha) - 6 (Combat Expertise) - 1 (Fighting Defensively) = /23/18/13 to-hit. This is worst-case full-defense mode, and doesn't factor in temporary buffs that can increase your attack rolls. Removing Combat Expertise (Piranha is needed for the damage, and the +1 from Fighting Defensively isn't worth losing the 8 AC you gain), these numbers increase to 34/29/24/19. Not horrible, but again, you aren't in for the DPR olympics.
Damage
4.5 (Average Damage Dice) + 5 (Enhancement) + 4 (Weapon Specializations) + 13 (Dex) + 12 (Piranha) = 38.5 Damage/Hit, scaling from 35 to 42 damage, not factoring in DR (which you bypass all except BPS and -) or buffs.
So interestingly enough, this build can work by the endgame. It's slow, but steady and very durable. I would worry about its early game, though, especially with carrying capacity.
This is the wrong class for your concept. If you want to be the impenetrable fortress, my preference would be a Sacred Shield Paladin. Your offense won't be great (or good, even) because you're trading out Smite Evil, but Bastion of Good is the best martial defense ability in the game. It's so good whoever you have assigned to DPR can basically abandon their defenses in favor of offense because you have them covered so well.
Hello everyone, I am Viveka and I have a question for those who know how to build completely broken characters that make GMs want to pull their hair out. So I am playing a
Tiefling
Fighter
Specialization: Armor MasterSo my question if how to I make him an over powered Meat Shield.
Answer: Don't play a Fighter.
Second answer: Defense is secondary. If you have sky-high defenses, poor attacks and nothing else, you're going to get ignored, and you'll be the Least Valuable Player on the team.
Sadly Fighters aren't the best armor masters at the moment. I would suggest either playing a different class or toughing it out until this book gets released: Armor Master's Handbook
Hmm. A dwarven Stonelord Paladin does this really well. You'll want the Glory of Old trait and the Steel Soul feat.
You'll have lots of varied defenses and immunities, and with a two-handed weapon, power attack and a high strength, your damage won't be that bad either.
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I typically disapprove of fighters but I will give you a Pathfinder Fighter.
Tiefling
Fighter
Specialization: Armor MasterI would like the character to have HIGH AC as well as High Saves, and some decent Melee Damage (Longsword)
Ok First let me start by saying I'm going to change 2 of those things mentioned above. First is the Archetype...yuck, and the Longsword. The archetype I will use for my example is Two Weapon Warrior. The reason is 2 Fold.
One you wanted high AC so I plan to accomplish this with a Sword and board Build. I really enjoy Defensive Flurry + Improved shield bash. You can Keep your Shield AC and gain a Dodge bonus while standing toe-to-toe with the Enemy
Two the route of Sword and Board is like a few have said before. You have to do damage and be a threat to hold a enemies attention and not be ignored.
I am changing the long sword to a Scimitar because you will be wanting to Critical fish with your Main Hand to proc Bashing Finish later in your build. Not to mention Critical damage is always nice. But it is a way to get a Free attack at your highest BaB. This is a reason I do not take Greater two weapon fighting...it is actually a trap when you have better options like Bashing Finish and Two weapon Rend. The accuracy loss from Great two weapon fighting really does hurt and your more likely to hit with the other feats at a higher BaB.
20 point buy:
Str: 18, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 9, Wisdom 11, Cha: 5
Alternative racials:
Scaled Skin- +1 Natural Armor and Resist 5 ((If your in a Campaign like Reign of winter with lots of cold environment Take Cold Resist....otherwise take Fire.))
Scaled Skin- You do not need Fiendish Sorcery as a fighter so might as well gain a tail to retrieve/hold potions for you.
Traits:
Armor Expert- I like this feat
Feats per Level:
1:Two Weapon FIghting
1: Improved Shield Bash
2: Power attack
3: Weapon Focus- Scimitar
4: Weapon Specialization- Scimitar
5: Iron Will
6: Shield Slam
7: Improved Bull Rush
8: Improved Critical- Scimitar
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10: Double Slice
11: Shield Master
12: Bashing FInish
13: Two-Weapon Rend
14: Greater Bull Rush
15: Critical Focus
16: (Critical Feat of Choice)
17: (Second Critical Feat of Choice)
Skills:
If you even cared about these you would not play a fighter!
The whole Goal of this guy is to be on the battlefield killing FOes or Bull rushing them about. If you have a wizard or arcane caster have them drop Walls, Pits or other obstacles to bull rush enemies into.
Once you get to mid levels and get Doublestrike (Ex) you can effectively move, Standard (hit with both) and also get in a shield slam and a Rend. (if your Scimitar Crits) you get a Bashing finish to tag along with it. For a total of 4 attacks and a Bull Rush off a Standard Action attack. This is why I have such a focus on the Scimitar because of it's 15-20 critical range.
Here is a progression for a Tiefling Armor Master.
Tiefling (Devil-Spawn)
-Prehensile Tail
-Vestigial Wings
-Fiendish Resistance
-Darkvision
-Spell-Like Ability: 1/Day Pyrotechnics
Traits
-Armor Expert
-Seeker
Equipment
Flickmace
Heavy Shield
Feat Progression
1st Iron Will
1st Exotic Weapon Prof (Flickmace)
2nd Combat Reflexes
3rd Power Attack
4th Combat Expertise
5th Improved Trip
6th Cornugon Smash
7th Armor of the Pit
8th Dodge
9th Mobility
10th Combat Patrol
11th Improved Unarmed Strike
12th Wolf Style
13th Wolf Trip
14th Improved Critical (Flickmace)
15th Critical Focus
16th Staggering Critical
17th Stunning Critical
18th Critical Mastery
19th Spring Attack
20th Whirlwind Attack
I'm not sure about the order of feats. But Something like that.
I would tend to agree with everyone professing to avoiding a pure Fighter. In the very least I would take a PrC I find interesting. I also don't have a great knowledge of hidden 3.5e gems.
However, if you are dedicated to the archetype, I would play a Fighter with a Dex of measly 12. With the Artful Dodge feat you get around the main detractor of low Dex and Heavy Armor. Then, take Dawnflower Dervish as a second archetype so you aren't just sitting still. It's a archetype combo which does pair very well with Thunder and Fang as a fighting style. It's very feat intensive, but that's sorta Fighter's thing isn't it? It gives you a constant Shield Bonus while TWF with a sorta pounce ability.
The main detractor is you need 15 Int. and this isn't so much a master of not being hit as it is a more balanced build between hitting and defending that happens to be in heavy armor. But, I just can't justify Dex. while in heavy armor and after you get Thunder and Fang you can then go around cherry picking from Int. and Dex. feats. You can even pick up a feat I'm eager to test in actual play that's pretty new called Redirect Attack.
I won't profess to this build being OP by any stretch, but I would put more weight behind it then an Aldori Dueling Sword Dex. Build. It just isn't worth getting an Aldori Dueling Sword over Elven Curve Blade or Rapier unless you are playing a Aldori Swordlord and need the weapon. This build would work best with anything with +2 Str. and +2 Int. or Wis and -2 Cha.
If you insist on going with fighter, don't go with the Armor Master. Many have suggested Mutation Warrior which is a great archetype but trading out armor training does feel a little taboo in regards to flavour. In any case, I would hang on to weapon training. The new Weapon Master's Handbook gave a new option to fighters that is quite good for defense.
Advanced Weapon training lets you trade out progression in other weapon groups in exchange for some nifty abilities. Among them are:
Adding your Bravery bonus to Will Saves (you want this!)
Inquisitor's solo tactics under a new name (good for the Intercept Charge teamwork feat)
Weapon training bonus to initiative (because catching enemies flatfooted while using a combat maneuver is good and who doesn't like going first?)
Weapon training bonus to intimidate checks so you can reduce enemy attack rolls.
Weapon training bonus to CMD (pesky monks)
That's just off the top of my head too. Getting gloves of dueling can also increase these benefits. I would pick close weapons so it applies to your shield as well as a close weapon. I believe gauntlets are under that group so you can punch people really hard too!
Edit: Also don't aim too high with your AC or you'll notice mooks will start having attack bonuses higher than yours (playing a similar fighter in a home game). I would also suggest taking feats like disruption so casters have a tougher time.
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Edit: Also don't aim too high with your AC or you'll notice mooks will start having attack bonuses higher than yours (playing a similar fighter in a home game). I would also suggest taking feats like disruption so casters have a tougher time.
Sounds like a Homebrew with a DM who thinks even mooks should offer a challenge and everything should be doing you damage or it's "Just not challenging enough"
But the advice on not aiming too high on AC is correct. AC in the first 6 levels is suppose to help mitigate attacks. After 6+ it is meant to mitigate the Iterative attacks.
You will want layered defenses to maximize your survivaliblity.
Edit: Also don't aim too high with your AC or you'll notice mooks will start having attack bonuses higher than yours (playing a similar fighter in a home game). I would also suggest taking feats like disruption so casters have a tougher time.Sounds like a Homebrew with a DM who thinks even mooks should offer a challenge and everything should be doing you damage or it's "Just not challenging enough"
Perhaps but we are playing a mythic campaign so "it's just not challenging enough" is probably correct. I'm actually not sure if the high attack rolls were intentional. When I asked about it I was told it was the template (one of the intelligent skeletons I think) that was giving them the high attack rolls so it may have just been a coincidence.
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Perhaps but we are playing a mythic campaign so "it's just not challenging enough" is probably correct. I'm actually not sure if the high attack rolls were intentional. When I asked about it I was told it was the template (one of the intelligent skeletons I think) that was giving them the high attack rolls so it may have just been a coincidence.
Mythic is broken anyways and not a challenge. My group played the first 3 books of WotR and no boss even got a turn. The Archer Paladin and Vital strike Scythe Fighter decimated them too quickly. We just said, "we are all too bored, time to go back to normal play."
Perhaps but we are playing a mythic campaign so "it's just not challenging enough" is probably correct. I'm actually not sure if the high attack rolls were intentional. When I asked about it I was told it was the template (one of the intelligent skeletons I think) that was giving them the high attack rolls so it may have just been a coincidence.Mythic is broken anyways and not a challenge. My group played the first 3 books of WotR and no boss even got a turn. The Archer Paladin and Vital strike Scythe Fighter decimated them too quickly. We just said, "we are all too bored, time to go back to normal play."
Thankfully our group hasn't encountered that problem since we tend to go more for flavour rather than numbers and try to avoid breaking the game. It helps that two other players have no patience for making characters so I can control the balance of power in the party.
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The guy who played the fighter didn't know it would be that strong.
All he said was: I want to be a scythe using fighter that is easy to play. He picked vital strike cause it was 1 swing...thought it would keep things simple. It sure did lol.
At the time I didn't even look much into mythic feats more than those for archmage. If I would have read vital strike I could been like...bro that's broken as f*** and he prolly would have not picked it.
Mythic is funny because the most brazenly overpowered options also happen to be the most obvious picks. It doesn't exactly take a genius optimizer to look at Mythic Vital Strike and say "that will make me hit good, I'll take that". It might take an optimizer to realize exactly how overtuned the feat is before taking it, though, which is honestly an even worse state.
Yeah, as a general rule, I choose options that give you additional abilities rather than ones that tack on extra damage. It allows for some interesting options in combat without messing with the balance too much. Mythic rules can easily throw balance out the window if you aren't really careful.
Anyway, apologies for the derail. On a more related note, anyone who plans on making an Armor Master type character should definitely keep an eye on the Armor Master's Handbook I mentioned a few posts up. The Weapon Master's Handbook had some great options for martials and I expect the Armor Master's Handbook will too.
Also since you're probably going to be walking around in fullplate you should get an Armor Truss. While reducing the time to don full plate to two minutes won't help a lot, the ability to don the armor by yourself without help will probably come in handy.
Stop it. If you want to complain about the Mythic rules there are plenty of other threads to do so. I've already tried to steer the conversation back to its original topic so stop trying to perpetuate a derail.
8th Dodge
9th MobilityRemember that Viveka has permission to take 3.5 Feats. If you are going to have Viveka take Dodge and Mobility, then you should really consider having her take the 3.5 Feat Elusive Target, too.
Elusive Target, from Complete Warrior, lets you do a few things.
1) Your Dodge Opponent does not get the benefit of Power Attack against you.
2) If your Dodge Opponent is Flanking you, his first attack each round automatically targets the other flanker and not you! And that other flanker is automatically Flat Footed.
3) If you provoke an Attack of Opportunity from your Dodge opponent by moving out of a Threatened Square, and if that attack misses, you make a Free Trip attempt against him with no chance of being Tripped by your own Trip attempt.
Kinda awkward considering Pathfinder's version doesn't have a target. But interesting. I wonder how that would work with my Artful Dodge concept. Elusive Target and Redirect Attack could make for an amusing build, if a bit redundant.
I'm offering too many ideas to put into only 1 character
Please, continue if you have more. I don't really have a great knowledge of 3.5e's feats I haven't directly used so it's interesting to see.
You mentioned the Dervish of the Dawn Fighter Archetype. Have you considered Mobile Fighter?
Ya know, I don't actually like Mobile Fighter for the simple reason it replaces too much. It's definitely better as a solo archetype, and personally I wouldn't go for Armor Master at all, but I like Dawnflower Dervish simply because you can get a second archetype with it. In my eyes Martial Master/Eldritch Guardian is the standard I judge other Fighters against. (And is notably better for Dex building a Fighter.) Most of the other ones I rate highly like Airborne Ambusher or Learned Duelist can only fit Dawnflower Dervish/Mutation Warrior. Er, aside from the weird NPC centric ones.
I do have more ideas, especially if Viveka's GM also allows 3.0 Feats and Prestige Classes.
I'm afraid that the conclusion to draw from my posts on this thread is that allowing 3.5 and Pathfinder to combine is very dangerous, like mixing pool cleaner and drain cleaner sitting on top of a whole lot of thermite on top of a great big block of ice.
A GM needs to take special precautions to handle these very high-energy reactions: do not try this at home!
A player in my game came up with a very broken spell feat combination in a mater of seconds. He has since been under the impression I've banned 3.5e feats, but it's more of a case of I'm banning the feats he wants to beak everything with. XD