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I think Rise of the Runelords did a pretty good job with high level, FWIW.
In my opinion, Pathfinder's end-game levels are really 15th-16th. That leaves room for the last few levels to serves as challenges for the PCs, probably with a 20th level super-villain at the end of the campaign. I might pop the PCs up to 17th for a session or two, just long enough for the climax.
Pathfinder/3.5 becomes an entirely different game, narratively, after around 12th level. The GM can actually stop planning for potential solutions and actually present the party with seemingly impossible problems and over-the-top defenses.
The GM has to completely throw out the low-level adventure structure and begin requiring the heroes to do things that literally only they can do, like fly across continents overnight.
If the PCs try to change the economy, I hit that with the same cudgel that I handle economic game commentary at any level: with an arched brow, I remind them that even economists in real life have no ability to reliably control such things, and disaster or a total anti-climax could result. The game's economy makes no sense. That would be a waste of everyone's time, and even if this were desirable no game could model it. Go kill some monsters instead.
But really, most of the spells have pretty reasonable restrictions baked in. I mostly manage economic concerns by putting demographic numbers out there. I considerably limit the number of NPCs that are higher than 10th level (heck 7th). If the players want to put their powers to use as some kind of magic bus driver or telephone operator, so be it. I'll just viciously mock them until they decide to do something cool instead. If what they're doing has a place in the action, (feeding an army, for example) then I embrace it. They're the Justice League at this point, not the X-Men anymore.
For boss fights, embrace henchmen. Strong ones. Credible threats who can actually run interference. Dragons work pretty well. The fact is, you'll never force players to enter a fight at a disadvantage if they have literally any other option. You shouldn't, it's stupid. It's a made up trope that inexperienced GMs think is the standard for some reason. Think about it: are you ever going to enter a life and death situation when you are less than completely prepared? That's what you're asking your players to do. And if they take every measure to ensure that never happens, that's called role-playing. If you're expecting them to plod onward despite attrition then you're asking them not to role-play.
With respect to BBEGs, in a world where valuable intelligence on your opponent can be plucked from the air, reputation management becomes weaponized. A truly classy villain will operate in such a way that the heroes never know WHO to scry on. Every time they think they've got the guy, it should be a patsy. Nobody knows the villain's real name, or what he looks like. It makes scry-n-die obsolete (not that it works all that great anyway.)
Another bit of advice: don't start players at high level. It's totally not worth it. Organically grown high level PCs are much easier to predict and nourish with appropriate challenges. High level PCs out of a can are a nightmare for all involved. Screw that.
One of the main reasons I ask this is I have not seen a published adventure that truely addresses what high level PCs and BBEGs can do. Is there one out there?
There are many reasons for the dearth of high-level modules, but one of the most important reasons ties into my last point in the post above: good high level games address organic character development. This is why you need to look at Adventure Paths to get a sense of how it's done.
High-level modules with no campaign for context are a nightmare to create, and the end result will likely be terrible no matter the talents of the writer.
GP should really be an afterthought for folks this powerful.
A more meaningful limitation is the availability of items, and the ability of the community to even provide such items for their needs. I find that abiding by the GM limits in the town rules, and the 75% availability roll, tends to be enough for me. By and large, they won't be able to get their hands on really great stuff without a logical amount of effort. If they exert the effort, I let them have the stuff.
But, you need to keep the dramatic pressure on so that they don't just sit around and accumulate stuff.
Fully buffed PCs are something you should balance for. Most fights will be that. Learn it. The CR rules work well as a ball-park measure of relative monster power, but after 8th level or so you can safely ignore them when balancing encounters. Use your own judgement. If you're running for an organically growing party, you have a sense of what works and what doesn't.
Narrative pressure is probably the most important tool here. If you don't give the players scads of free time to hack the spell system, then they will need to use more direct means. If these high-level characters are the right people for the job (and the job is worth their interest) then things are probably pretty urgent indeed.
What's all this narrative/dramatic pressure I'm talking about, right?
Well, here's the thing. As the GM, you should actually pull the trigger once in a while. PCs are forever rushing off to stop some nefarious plan from coming to fruition. If, at some point early in the campaign, the plan actually comes to fruition, not only does it make later threats credible but it enhances every aspect of your game.
Doing this earlier rather than later helps to contain the consequences. But even right up until the final session, have a real and earnest willingness to actually pull the trigger on whatever the PCs are opposing is a great tool.
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Reign of Winter has been a good example. We've just started book five, and I know my oracle doesn't give a damn about gold. My wife's cavalier has been destroying things with nothing but a magic sword and magic armor. The campaign provided a unique method of item access, and we've organically grown through from 1st to 11th level. The last two books should give us some good experience at high level play.
You were asking how you provide plausible henchmen for a high-level villain, given that level 13 sorcerers and antipaladins don't exactly grow on trees.
Powerful demons/daemons/devils provide one possible answer. No matter how many there are or how powerful they are, they provide an answer for, "Where are all these guys coming from?" They're from hell.
They also often have abilities like permanent true seeing, teleportation, spell resistance and flight, which (unlike a high level fighter) means they're not trivial foes to PCs who make good use of magic.
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For starters, has there been any inquiry into the history of the area? Have the PCs actively tried to find out what happened to the dragon? The challenge shouldn't be if they can kill the dragon (they will), the challenge is if they can:
1) figure out that the dragon isn't dead
2) find out where he is
3) learn of his plans to return
4) ultimately, confront him in his demi-plane
By confronting him in his demi-plane, he will be stronger, but they will save the kingdom from the collateral damage caused by the fight with him. If the fight happens in the kingdom, it will be hard for the PCs to achieve an outcome most would consider a "win". They are on a hard timer: the dragon plans to return tomorrow (after a night's rest), but as soon as they make the necessary contact to learn of his plans, he starts casting his inter-dimensional spell to return, with a casting time of, oh lets say, 1 minute. Roll initiative.
The scenario presented is a single high level encounter. To make it part of an adventure, you have to tie in other events at the same time that depend on the outcome of this event.
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Outsiders make great henchmen but how do you explain their getting here. I suppose DM fiat works and can be explained by a god supporting the BBEG. If they do that though then why do the good gods not send angels to help the PCs?
You don't need an evil god to intervene. The villain may have opened a portal somehow and that's letting the demons come through; they're willing to help him with his scheme because they like how evil it is. (Either that or he's using the standard 'planar' spells.)
Opening a portal to heaven wouldn't have the same effect because the angels aren't as keen to come to our realm as the demons are. To an angel, our plane is a big step down, just as humans aren't eager to visit hell.
Instead, angels help by intervening in subtle ways, such as making sure the PCs only encounter CR-appropriate foes.
how do you justify a swordsman who had trouble with a troll three weeks ago being able to down a storm giant with a single swing today?
It's possible you're taking the details too seriously. Player accept these things. It doesn't make much sense that a swordsman learns to kill giants in a single blow in a few weeks, but it doesn't really make sense if he learns to do it over a period ten years either.
Keeping up constant pressure on the party usually isn't necessary, though. The players can resolve one crisis, and then relax for a while. If you've allowed them to take crafting feats, this is when they use them. But then the next crisis occurs, and suddenly they're in a race against time and they don't have the luxury of unlimited scrying and hit & run raids and resting whenever they want.
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I realize that things need to change when PCs get to higher levels. At low levels things like walls and door can channel a party through a dungeon crawl. At higher levels they have so many different ways to find out what is going on and just skipping over to it.
For this discussion lets assume that the table has reasonable rules that prevent snow con wish machines, nested fast time planes, abusive trap rules, and huge armies of bound outsiders.
What makes a good story at 13th level and above? How do you present a new BBEGs arrival on the scene? If he is not new why has he not moved against the PCs already?
Part of making a boss fight interesting is softening the PCs up by having them wade through your minions. How do you do that at higher levels?
If you play in a standard setting what do you do when the PCs want to use their new powers to completely change how the economy works? How do you explain that this has not been done before? At these levels they can introduce teleport trade routes, build and airforce, set a near instant communication between villages, provide water for millions, feed a nation with ease, and make an invading army of low level warriors pointless. I am say that those abilities are bad, just how do you deal with them in game.
One of the main reasons I ask this is I have not seen a published adventure that truely addresses what high level PCs and BBEGs can do. Is there one out there?
High level play is a different beast, but it is very doable.
My first principle of designing a true high level adventure is to make it impossible. At lower levels you always want to leave a way for the PCs to succeed - at high levels you should ruthlessly close off all avenues of success. That's no saying the PCs can't win - you want them to win - but they have so many abilities that they should have to think of something you overlooked to do so. Trust me, you can make a plot that on the surface of it seems impossible, and they'll come up with something. These are characters that can wander up to gods in their homes and ask for advice. They'll be okay.
There are many ways to justify a BBEG not smiting them when they were low level - my BBEGs tend to have many things going on at once, and if one scheme is thwarted by upstart adventurers, well the other fourteen plots are proceeding smoothly. By the time the BBEG realizes that the party is a true threat, it's more iffy that he/she/it can just easily take them. Better to send powerful minions to deal with the problem at low risk to oneself. And so forth.
There are all sorts of ways to introduce a new BBEG. He can have just moved to the area, or the PCs can have just moved to his turf. It could have been sealed away and just released by someone. The lich has been quietly researching for four centuries and realizes it's running low on pure innocent souls for magic research.
Why not have a boss fight with minions? Nothing makes a party feel awesome like downing hundreds of low level foes, especially if you pick something that gave them trouble at low levels.
It's not a bad idea to brainstorm some reasons why no one has ever used high level magic to change the world as you describe. Selfishness/laziness works for a surprising number of schemes. Remember that many people fear change, and it's much cheaper for a disgruntled merchant caravan owner to dispel that teleportation circle than it is for the PCs to keep casting it.
Also, it's ok to allow these things. It gives your players buy-in to the world if they are the first ones to set up a magical air force. Always look for ways that emphasize the cool things the PCs can now do - players love playing with their toys and those toys should actually work more often than not.
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Lets assume that the PCs find a clue that the dragon did not die, say an old journal in his former lair or he tripped an alarm when he peeked back at the area.
If mindblank is not use then divination should work to find him with all that much trouble. Getting to his plane could be tough since forks are not going to be common.
If this kind of thing is a single encounter in the high level world then how would you expand it to an adventure?
You gave yourself the plot hook you needed:
He then lost track of time perfecting it and finding rare treasures through the multiverse.
For one, I'd bet there would be multiple contenders to claim this now-vacant demi-plane and its rare treasures from throughout the multiverse. Did he do all of this alone, or were there other interested parties?
What I'd do is set up a muli-planar scheme in which this dragon and his exploits were just the most local to the PCs. It's one finger of a greater plot devised by multiple creatures throughout the multiverse.
Maybe a trickster devil conned a minor deity of prophesy and learned that one who would destroy heaven itself would be born of that kingdom. He's been working to find and help this person, so that he may claim the person for his own domain and thus gain a great amount of standing within hell. Well now the prophesy deity tells an archon (who is somehow "family" or some equivalent) who starts helping the dragon behind the scenes. Feeds him information to those things he wants to finish his demi-plane. An aeon hears of all of this and promplty starts trying to stop all of them from meddling with the future.
Now you've got a person of interest within the kingdom, who probably isn't a bad person, just destined for a dark fate. You've also got a devil who is kinda working to the same ends as the PCs, and an archon who is furious the dragon has been killed. The aeon is now curious towards the PCs, since they weren't part of the prophesy at all. Each of them will now be making contact in their own ways. The PCs may be assaulted by all manner of interested parties, the archon may send the armies of heaven against the kingdom, the devil may invite them to an infernal ball, and the archon may start testing just how much the PCs can interact with fate.
Bonus points if one of the PCs is the one fated to destroy heaven. The goal of the adventure then is to destroy fate, though the PCs probably won't figure that out until the back quarter of the adventure.
EDIT: Basically, get super conspiracy-theorist with your game. Layers on layers on layers on layers. Too many players on the field to count. Always three new mysteries behind every solved one. Only at the end of the adventure do they finally tie up all the strings and truly solve the actual problem, if it even was a problem to start with.
High level bad guys should be known about at lower levels, but they shouldn't move against the PCs because either they don't perceive the PCs a threat or some other obstacle is holding them back.
High level villains always have some basic protection from scrying and teleporting.
As to henchmen; the PCs aren't the only ones running around and doing things. Just because they're the highest level in town doesn't mean they're the highest level around.
Here's a few Paizo examples. Spoilers ahead.
He's coming out of stasis, so he cannot directly engage the PCs.
He's on a personal demiplane sitting on top of a great old one, so the PCs have no way of just popping off to him (the great old one's magical aura prohibits teleportation to him)
The Champion of Greed is a soldier who's longevity she owes directly to her Runelord sponsor. If you live for thousands of years, you're gonna level up a bit.
Harrigan cannot engage the PCs directly by the time they are a threat due to Shackles law and time constraints involving his master plan, though he DOES eventually do so when he feels he has the force to. Hurricane King Bonefist simply NEVER sees the PCs as a threat; they have to come to him.
Harrigan is constantly scry shielded by Norgerberite allies, and Bonefist's hideout is shielded by Magnificent Mansion
Goldtooth is a thug and lacky of the Hurricane King. he's been with Bonefist since the beginning and has as much experience as the King does (the PCs also meet him WAY before the confront him.)
Even once they eventually do, scry and fry is impossible. Trying to teleport to him sets of a series of magical traps called witchgates that thake the PCs to various locations of bad stuff, forcing fights with a linnorm, night hags, and eventually a banshee (while locked in an adamantine cell)
The vast majority of the high level Whispering Way are undead, with many of them being actually created by the famed Whispering Tyrant in the mythic times long ago
If the PCs manage to figure this out, teleporting to the Iron God's godrealm is impossible. For one, the realm is digital, there is no magic that can get them in, only technology. Two, the source of the Iron God's power disrupts teleportation and planar travel throughout the spaceship it resides in.
Most of Iron God Unity's henchmen are either immortal robots crafted to high CRs or long lived aliens who had time to grind up to where they are. For the ones who are mortal and young; did I mention that Unity's a god?
High level play I would roughly say does start somewhere close to 8th level. Here is a couple of pointers that I have noticed seem to work well for this point in time.
1. Enemies, even mooks, should start upping their tactics. Low level monsters are usually low level due to not only their relative strength, but also their strategies. Ogres smash, and really that is all they do, so if the party can fight that they can win. However Hags are nefarious and conniving, they cast curses and hexes, they use magic to ward off would be do gooders. This makes players utilize their skills to circumvent these obstacles or find solutions using their higher level abilities.
2. Utilize enemy knowledge. If an enemy escaped the party before, and are part of the group that the PC's are trying to stop at their higher level, have that enemy give information to the bad guy. Or have the bad guy be scrying them, watching them and using this information to set-up traps or hire mercenaries more suited to attack the party. Obviously if the villain does not have the capacity or time to gather knowledge, do not start pulling out monsters and bandits with specific counters to party members, as it also does invalidate their hard earned abilities.
3. Do not have solo monsters. At low levels, having 1 BBG at CR 3 or 4 is actually going to be enough of a challenge for a 4-5 party team. However at higher levels having one monster won't be enough due to action economy. Always add a couple of henchmen/henchwoman that the BBG can have at his side. Afterall, why would they be alone when they know that a party is gunning after them? If the BBG is extremely powerful this doesn't have to be the case, but I know as a Bandit Lord I am going to have some henchman at my side when things turn sour.
4. Start utilizing varied enemy compositions. At low levels, it makes sense to have a bunch of goblins or gnolls be the sole enemy of the party, with roughly the same equipment. As the party gets stronger, start adding other types of the same enemy so the party has to really think about what they should be aiming for. This also applies at low levels, but at that time it is usually challenging enough to send 6-8 goblins at a party of 4 instead of 4 goblin warriors, 2 goblin rangers and 2 goblin bards, which may be a tad much for the party.
Not very well
Not very wellWorks about as well as the rest of the game.
I guess my multiple pages of house rules tell you how I feel about that.
It's a good basis for a game. But trying to run a "RAW" game is about the silliest thing one could do, IMO.
I think that part my issue with high level play is that I like using published material. At low levels I rarely need to change a thing. At high levels (9+) I have to redo most everything since it is unlikely that my PCs are going to actually go room by room and deal with things.
Often I rewrite the BBEG to be an actually challenge then have every other critter swarm over them in waves. I would say I use APL +6 or 7 in my late game fights in order to challenge my PCs, though rarely in single foe more then a level or two higher then the PCs.
** spoiler omitted **
Without knowing which protections from undead they are using, I couldn't tell you what went wrong next. I can say that Hide From Undead wouldn't work, as most of the undead are intelligent with decent will saves, and there are a number of non-undead foes around who could easily point out the invisible creatures to their allies.
If they skipped most of book 6, they shouldn't be 15th level by the time they get to Gallowspire, and then they should have access to multiple Earthquake spells.
This also means that they left Count Galdana to die in Renchurch.
And that a plethora of horrible undead would be joining in on the BBEB fight. In essence, most of everything they skipped would be piling on at once.
And through it all, that wonderful persistant haunt called The Tyrant's Whispers" should be nagging at them
The thing to remember is that all the tricks at the PCs disposal are also at the villians'.
Not very wellWorks about as well as the rest of the game.
Many (though not all) of the problems people have with high-level play are a matter of expectations rather than the rules actually being broken. Frex, a spell like Greater Teleport is not broken: the rules are clear and it function as intended.
However, a lot of GMs are likely to decry the spell as "broken" because it disrupts a lot of traditional low-level storytelling tools. There are no more long and hazardous journeys to Mordor, Gandalf can just teleport the Fellowship to Mount Doom as a standard action. Frodo drops the ring as a free action, and next turn Gandalf teleports them all back to Rivendell. Quest over.
Basically, High-level play works very differently, and the GM has to account for what the party can do when drawing up campaign plans. Otherwise it's going to be a big mess.
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There is high level adventure and then there is high level adventure that players feel immersed in.
I'll be frank, high level adventures can be hard to give a hoot. I don't blame GMs for it, because it is all about nature of drama to me. Everything starts to feel more detached the more "macro" you go in scale. At lvl 1, it can be a legit plothook to go to cave to kill spiders to extract rare antivenom to save one life. At lvl 15, you probably want the plot hook to be something that involves saving the whole world or something and wrestle dragon elementals bare handed at the dragon plane.
Saving worlds can be fun and all, but it can easily become devoid of all social interaction or human life. Worst you can do is end up in somekind of a DBZ situation where 2 wizards just throw magic beams at each other in energy plane ( or space).
There are no problems with high level if you just want to do fantastic dungeon crawling, where there is less dungeon and more energy planes.
While I love to discuss high level play, I think what you are looking for is only high level combat encounters, rather than high level play.
No single answer will address all of the issues you are going to have if you are trying to run a high level combat encounter (or just a series of encounters) without either organically growing the characters or spending a LOT of time with the players working out character backgrounds, motivations, histories, etc. before game start.
The best part about high level play to me is the crazy-awesome RP, but from some of your earlier comments we have diametrically opposed views to what is fun about high level play.
-TimD