Swim Speed question

[Berti Blackfoot]

I am confused by the use of the word speed in this sentence

Swim skill

Quote:

Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action.

If I interpret "speed" as "velocity" it doesn't make sense, the distance you'd move would quadruple for full round actions, since you are doubling your "speed" as well as the "time" you are taking to swim. So I assume that is wrong.

What I think it means is this (for creatures with no Swim Speed):
You move at quarter of your land movement speed.

So if you are a dwarf with 20 move, you can do a move action and swim 5 feet. You can move 10 feet in a full round (double move / full round).

If you're a normal human, you can move 7.5 feet (rounded down) for a single move, or move 15 feet in a full round.

Similarly, the barbarian with 40 move on land, can swim 10 feet in a move action, or 20 feet in a full round action.

Is that correct?
If so, it is a lot simpler to say "you move at one quarter of your land speed" with the caveat "You can round fractions up if doing a double move action". that makes sense and is simple and you don't need to have multiple sentences to describe it, since speed is not distance.

Unless there is some reason that the "full round action" to swim is not the same as a "double move"

I ask since I think we were confused a few weeks ago in a sewer, when the narrow 2.5" ledge I ruled was slippery and you could move half speed, but then they could move half speed in the water since it says "you can move half speed as a full round action" and completely evaded the whole setup. But now I think, they should have been moving at quarter speed.

[Hendelbolaf]

Your general assessment is correct.

When it says "speed" in the quoted rule, it means land speed as that is the default speed that almost all creatures have.

It might be better to say it another way, but that would be true of many sentences and really beyond the scope of the rules forum in my opinion. Unless, of course, a rule is so massively confusing as to require an errata or an FAQ, then these messageboards are quit helpful.

Also, since movement is in 5 foot increments a 30 land speed converted to swimming would be similar to moving diagonally and only merit you 5 feet for the first move action and then 10 feet for the second move action, or as you pointed out, a total of 15 feet if you were to use the entire full round action (which is basically what you are doing when you use two move actions).

I think you have the gist of it.

[Chemlak]

Fractions round down, and that's why it's important.

A character with speed 30 can swim 7.5 feet as a move action, which rounds down to 5 feet. If you double move 5 feet, you only go 10 feet. If, instead of double-moving, you instead choose to swim as a full-round action, you move 15 feet.

[GM Hands of Fate]

if you do not have a swim speed, and make a successful swim check, you move at 1/4 your land movement rate as a standard or move action (5' for base land speed of 20-30' (as you can't move 7.5' if you are using the grid system for movement). As a full round action,a character with a 20' move rate could swim 10' with a successful swim check, and a character with a 30' move could swim 15' with a successful swim check.

[Berti Blackfoot]

Thanks that makes sense. We have always rounded .5 first down, then up, then down, then up etc, which apparently is a house rule.

[alexd1976]

What about creatures with fly speeds? Eagle, for example...

80 fly, 10 ground. Can they swim? If so, how fast?

[Crimeo]

As written, yes, you swim twice as quickly with a full round action as with a move action. No, that doesn't make logical sense, and no, it's not intended, but that's what it does say.

They screwed up and wrote it incorrectly, it should have said "you move a distance equal to a quarter of your speed..." etc.

But if your land speed is 40, then RAW are telling you that you move 10ft as a move action (quarter speed for 1 action = 10*1) or 40ft as a full round (half speed for two actions = 20*2).

I would definitely suggest ignoring this and house ruling the clearly intended alternative rule of "distance equal to 1/4 of speed value as a move, or distance equal to 1/2 of speed value as a full round"

Quote:

What about creatures with fly speeds? Eagle, for example...

80 fly, 10 ground. Can they swim? If so, how fast?

It does actually say somewhere that "speed" without verbal qualification = land speed. So by RAW exactly, an eagle could not swim as a move (2.5 rounds to 0), I don't think. But as a full round they could (moving 10 feet total).

Or by the RAI, an eagle could still not move as a move action, but could as a full round (moving 5 feet total).

[CampinCarl9127]

Crimeo wrote:

But if your land speed is 40, then RAW are telling you that you move 10ft as a move action (quarter speed for 1 action = 10*1) or 40ft as a full round (half speed for two actions = 20*2).

What.

No, a full round action is a single action.

Please ignore Crimeo. Everybody else is correct.

[Crimeo]

Yes sorry about that one trip up, a full round is a single action.

But it still takes twice as long as a move action, which is the actually important detail, thus if you're going double the speed and for twice the time, you will travel 4 times the distance.

So still the same end conclusion: 10 with the move, 40 with the full round, by RAW.

[CampinCarl9127]

Crimeo wrote:

Yes sorry about that one trip up, a full round is a single action.

But it still takes twice as long as a move action, which is the actually important detail, thus if you're going double the speed and for twice the time, you will travel 4 times the distance.

So still the same end conclusion: 10 with the move, 40 with the full round, by RAW.

What.

Again, no. A full round action is a single action, regardless of how long it takes. You do not apply physics to Pathfinder rules. The rules state you get to move half your speed as a full round action. You do not then go and modify the rules based on physics with the given time an action takes.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

The rules state you get to move half your speed as a full round action.

Yes, so I'm doing exactly what it says.

Speed = distance / time, there HAS to be a time involved, or it is undefined. Luckily, there is one in both cases. A move action = 3 seconds, and a full round = 6 seconds.

Your land speed as written in your stat block is your speed in one move action, e.g. 40ft = "40ft/3sec" So if you move half your land speed, you are moving 20ft/3sec, and if you're doing that for a full round, you're doing it for 6 seconds. An object moving at 20ft/3sec for 6 seconds, has traveled 40 feet. Which is exactly what it says "You move half your speed [20ft/3s] as a full round action [taking 6 seconds]"

Whereas if you move 1/4 of your speed, you're moving at 10ft/3sec, and if you do that for 3 seconds, you have traveled 10 feet.

Which checks out: obviously moving twice the speed for twice the time will get you 4x the distance.

[CampinCarl9127]

Crimeo wrote:

Speed = distance / time

You're already outside of the rules. You do not apply physics to Pathfinder. To do so ends in madness.

Your logic is fine for a houserule, IMHO.

[dragonhunterq]

Actions do not have a specific amount of time attached to them. a move action is not 3 seconds. a standard action is not 3 seconds a full round action is not 6 seconds - other wise there is no time to perform swift actions, or free actions. It is left vague and undefined for a reason.

Time in pathfinder is divided into actions not seconds.
Actions are specific about what you can and cannot do. A full round actions is a specific action. It over-rides your normal actions. When something says this happens as a full round action that is exactly what happens - no more! You don't get to turn around and say "well, in a move action i get to do this, so it changes what the full round action says i can do" - the rules simply don't work that way.

As a full round action you move half your speed = as a full round action you move your speed divided by 2 within that full round action. (15' if your move is 30')

As a move action (another specific defined action) and in that time you move 1/4 your speed. (5' if your move is 30')

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Actions do not have a specific amount of time attached to them.

Full round actions do, actually, have a time, because they take a full round, and a round has a time. CRB:

Quote:

Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world

Move actions by contrast don't list a specific time, but they do have a necessary upper limit on them. Because you can fit 2 identical move actions back to back in a round sequentially, thus each one is at MOST 3 seconds, though possibly faster by some amount. Note that if they are faster than 3 seconds, it would only exaggerate the difference between movement for the move action swim and the full round swim even more. And there exists no possible way for them to be more than 3 seconds.

Unless you're suggesting that arithmetic does not hold in pathfinder, in which case you have a HELL of a lot of other problems to explain, such as how exactly you plan to "add your strength bonus" to anything, if you can't assume arithmetic....

Quote:

You're already outside of the rules. You do not apply physics to Pathfinder. To do so ends in madness.

I'm not sure how you're figuring that this is "outside the rules". Pathfinder uses speed just like anyone else, it's the distance you can move in a move action. That is [a distance / a time], i.e. the normal usage of the word. This is then heavily reinforced, obviously, by the fact that they chose the word "speed" and not "distance." But even without that cue, you have enough information to see that it is speed.

If they intended "speed" to actually mean "distance" which is how you seem to want to interpret it, then they wouldn't ever say "...while still having time to do something" or any other such qualifying clauses, because those make it not distance alone anymore.

[Dave Justus]

In Pathfinder terms

Speed = distance per round when using a single move action.
A character with a 30' speed can move 30'

Swim: "quarter of your speed as a move action"

So if your speed is 30, you can move 5' (7.5 rounded down) as a move action.

Swim" "half your speed as a full-round action".

30 divided by 2 is 15, so as a full-round action you can move 15 feet.

Crimeos mistake is that he is thinking speed is a measure of velocity per 3/seconds, when that is not the case in this system, rather it is a measure of distance. In many cases, it is a difference without a distinction, but in this case it matters quite a bit.

A similar example would be a staggered creature. It would still have a speed of 30, but if it move its 30' it would be done, traveling at 30/6 seconds, or half the velocity of the same creature that wasn't staggered, even though the speed of the creature does not change.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

In Pathfinder terms

Speed = distance per round when using a single move action.

Agreed. That's also everybody else's definition of speed in the world in real life. Distance per time.

Quote:

Swim" "half your speed as a full-round action".

30 divided by 2 is 15, so as a full-round action you can move 15 feet.

No, this one is incorrect fractional math. And we are using fractional math, as you just agreed above that pathfinder defines speed as a ratio... So 30/3s = 60/6s, without any change in speed. Half of that speed in 6 seconds is thus 30ft, because you only halve the numerator when you halve a whole ratio.

Quote:

Speed = distance per round when using a single move action.

Quote:

Crimeos mistake is that he is thinking speed is a measure of velocity per 3/seconds, when that is not the case in this system

The above two quotes directly contradict one another... I've bolded the critical word for you, which you chose yourself, "per". As in, you agreed it was a ratio, and then for some reason proceeded to argue it's not a ratio.

Quote:

A similar example would be a staggered creature. It would still have a speed of 30, but if it move its 30' it would be done, traveling at 30/6 seconds, or half the velocity of the same creature that wasn't staggered, even though the speed of the creature does not change.

The speed of the creature doesn't have to change to explain staggered condition. It can simply move at normal speed for at most 3 seconds, then stand still for the remainder of the 6 seconds in the round.

If they wanted to imply dragging along continuously at half speed, they should have written, "You can take an action that would normally be a move action as a full round action" or similar.

[CampinCarl9127]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Please ignore Crimeo. Everybody else is correct.

Literally everybody else. Crimeo's twisted rules lawyering is bad.

[Berinor]

Your speed is not 30 ft/action. It's 30 ft and you can use a move action to move your speed. Your reading of this applied to the combat chapter would allow moving 120' for a normal human in a double move or 240' at a run.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Your speed is not 30 ft/action. It's 30 ft

That's correct. Your speed is 30ft. Which is another way of saying "You move 30ft/(move action)" in both plain English, and what is says it means in the pathfinder book too.

Quote:

you can use a move action to move your speed

Also correct. 30ft/(move action) * 1 (move action) = 30ft distance moved when going at your normal 30ft speed.

Quote:

Your reading of this applied to the combat chapter would allow moving 120' for a normal human in a double move or 240' at a run.

Yes, the text also says this, as written. As I explained in my very first post, it's dumb, obviously not intended, and should be immediately house ruled by every GM. But that is exactly what it says.

Because it says the speed of, say, a human, is 30ft (i.e. 30ft distance / move action), and then it says you move double your speed if you double move in a round, so thus you move (60ft / move action), and you just took 2 move actions. So you've moved 120 feet, yes, by RAW.

[LazarX]

alexd1976 wrote:

What about creatures with fly speeds? Eagle, for example...

80 fly, 10 ground. Can they swim? If so, how fast?

Eagles don't swim.... they drown.

All fractions are rounded down. since swim is calculated from land speed, An eagle would not even get one square of movement as 2.5 rounds down to zero squares. Birds that do swim, like penguins, have a swim speed.

[Crimeo]

Quote:

An eagle would not even get one square of movement as 2.5 rounds down to zero squares.

Even if you use the RAI & common sense version of the rules, an eagle can still move 5 squares if it takes a full round action to do so.

Because 10ft * 1/2 = 5, enough to legit move one square full round.

[CampinCarl9127]

Now I want to play a monk in one of Crimeo's games. I'm fairly certain I would leave a trail of fire like Ghost Rider if I took a run action.

[Crimeo]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Now I want to play a monk in one of Crimeo's game. I'm fairly certain I would leave a trail of fire like Ghost Rider if I took a run action.

Yet again, as I suggested in my very first post, all GMs should immediately house rule it to work as per RAI, not as per RAW. Including myself.

So... a monk in one of my games would function exactly as the RAI rules, i.e. the ones you've been advocating all along.

[LazarX]

AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, I THOUGHT EAGLES COULD SWIM!

[CampinCarl9127]

Crimeo wrote:

So... a monk in one of my games would function exactly as the RAI rules, i.e. the ones you've been advocating all along.

Good. You're still wrong on RAW and that entire argument has been facetious and pointless, but good.

[/thread]

[Berinor]

The source of the claim of difference between RAW and RAI is that your speed is implicitly a ratio. If that were true, I'd expect words like "move AT twice your speed". As it turns out, speed is defined as such: "Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something."

That's not a rate. That's a raw amount. We can either read it in one straightforward way and everything makes sense. Otherwise we can pull in reasonable outside definitions that lead to an absurd result. While both could be argued to be written in the rules (I disagree which is more natural, but I can accept that it's ambiguous a priori), the former is clearly better for this reason.

This comes up a lot in reading the rules to this game (or any document of even vaguely similar complexity in English). I know I often see multiple interpretations when reading and have to decide which one to select.

[Crimeo]

If you can read that and see it as not a ratio somehow, then I would agree it would be fine. I just can't see it personally. If that's the sticking point, we just have to go our separate ways, which is cool. Probably not anything else interesting to be said anyway. Cheers!

[graystone]

LazarX wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

What about creatures with fly speeds? Eagle, for example...

80 fly, 10 ground. Can they swim? If so, how fast?

Eagles don't swim.... they drown.

All fractions are rounded down. since swim is calculated from land speed, An eagle would not even get one square of movement as 2.5 rounds down to zero squares. Birds that do swim, like penguins, have a swim speed.

"In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally." I don't know why this wouldn't apply to swimming, allowing that eagle to make it 5' with a full round action.

PS: quote from PRD, core book, additional rules, Tactical Movement