Gauntlet to unarmed strike.


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

33 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How do attacks with Gauntlets interact with feats, abilities, and effects that affect Unarmed Strikes?


Thank you. This was my question.

The latest I've found has been comments by Sean K Reynolds in this thread, where he states towards the end that

Quote:

Treating brass knuckles, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, cesti, and rope gauntlets as "unarmed attacks" doesn't make a lot of sense (because you're not unarmed, you have metal/leather/rope/etc. there).

...
Making all of these weapons act 100% like weapons and not refer to unarmed attacks at all means these questions go away.
These changes have apparently been reflected in the descriptions for the cestus and the brass knuckles, yet the description for gauntlets remains:
Quote:


"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplates) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets. "

Emphasis mine.

As far as RAW, it seems clear that gauntlets modify unarmed strikes only to allow lethal damage, as long as one is proficient with them.

RAI, it was effectively stated that gauntlets are intended as light weapons that provoke attacks of opportunity when used, and which don't threaten AOOs.

However, the rules haven't been changed to reflect this (5 years later?). Or have they?

I'm no expert in this. How do things work? And what are my rights for using the rules RAW?

It's my interpretation that the rules for the cestus and brass knuckles were changed, but the rules for the gauntlets were not.


Sanjiv wrote:


Emphasis mine.

As far as RAW, it seems clear that gauntlets modify unarmed strikes only to allow lethal damage, as long as one is proficient with them.

Actually, nothing about proficiency required. Monks should be able to use them (but -4 hit penalty) in flurry as their description unlike those others is an unarmed attack (the others have been changed to a weapon).

Scarab Sages

This also applies to all other weapons that "modify" unarmed strikes. Emei Piercers, Cestus, Brass Knuckles, and Gauntlets.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I suppose it qualifies as "Frequently Asked".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, do you think this will ever be made an explicit FAQ?

Scarab Sages

Not with only 11 FAQ clicks...

Although you can bypass the question now with Ascetic Style.


Imbicatus wrote:
Not with only 11 FAQ clicks...
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

Is a question with more FAQ-clicks more likely to be answered?

No. The staff can see that some posts have a lot of FAQ flags, but the staff also evaluates the complexity of the question, how much impact the answer has on player characters, and other factors. Just because someone managed to rally a lot of support about a particular question doesn't mean it's the most important, urgent, or relevant question.
In other words, sometimes it’s better or more efficient for the staff to answer a question with fewer FAQ flags than one with many FAQ flags.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
How do attacks with Gauntlets interact with feats, abilities, and effects that affect Unarmed Strikes?

Not at all?

Yes there is table variance on thsi question.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Indeed.

Seeing as I have a PFS Warpriest of Ng, whose Favored Weapon is the Gauntlet, it might be nice just to have something rather explicit.


Unarmed Attack =/= Unarmed Strike

Unarmed Strikes are a sub-set of Unarmed Attacks. Gauntlets are their own weapon; they count as Unarmed Attacks, but not as Unarmed Strikes. Wearing gauntlets lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes, but attacking with an Unarmed Strike that deals lethal damage as an exception is distinct from attacking with a Gauntlet as a Gauntlet weapon. To illustrate, a Fighter who doesn't have IUS, but has a pair of gauntlets, could make an Unarmed Strike that deals lethal damage, but it would still provoke as Unarmed Strikes without IUS normally do. If this Fighter had an AoMF (or other item that enhances unarmed strikes), their Unarmed Strike would have an enhancement bonus and deal lethal damage, but would still provoke as they lack IUS. Conversely, this same Fighter could attack with the Gauntlet as its own weapon. In this case, it deals lethal damage and doesn't provoke, but it also doesn't benefit from the AoMF. Lastly, an enhancement bonus on the Gauntlet doesn't enhance Unarmed Strikes because the only benefit the Gauntlet gives to Unarmed Strikes is the non-lethal-to-lethal allowance; you are still attacking with the Unarmed Strike weapon and not with the Gauntlet weapon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You are basically making all the same points I have made in the past.

I am kind of disappointed it has to be so blatantly explicit, or we get variation.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are basically making all the same points I have made in the past.

I am kind of disappointed it has to be so blatantly explicit, or we get variation.

Most of that comes from people who simply interpret the rules how they wish they were, without considering that the distinction matters and was on purpose.

Yes, it would be nice to have some FAQ answer like Kazaan's awesome post.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Anyone dealt with this confusion in PFS?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Anyone dealt with this confusion in PFS?

I have never had a player at a table ask or indicate they are doing unarmed strike damage dice with a gauntlet, brass knuckles, or anything other than their fits.

I've played 150 to 200 or so tables (would need to look up) and 140 to 160 tables as a GM.

So I can't say there is any confusion at any PFS table I've been at, but there may be some confusion at some tables.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Neither have I, but I don't have nearly the amount of experience as some.


FAQ'd.

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