Can I count as my own foe?


Rules Questions

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_Ozy_ wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I'm pretty sure sparring counts as:

4. 
an opponent in a game or contest; adversary: 
a political foe. 

I mean, it's one thing to say nothing is defined but another to ignore a literal definition.

And the other two call-outs?

Not to mention, the AC in the sparring class specified enemy.

Does that really apply? Or is it, like I said, a placeholder.

Enemy: : one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent

Synonyms: Foe


Rynjin wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I'm pretty sure sparring counts as:

4. 
an opponent in a game or contest; adversary: 
a political foe. 

I mean, it's one thing to say nothing is defined but another to ignore a literal definition.

And the other two call-outs?

Not to mention, the AC in the sparring class specified enemy.

Does that really apply? Or is it, like I said, a placeholder.

Enemy: : one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent

Synonyms: Foe

So, given that an ally you're sparring with, stealing from in combat, or even moving around with combat maneuvers, apparently counts as an enemy and foe, when can't you apply these terms just as generally to other targets? If you're going to zero in on the word 'confounding' to qualify a creature as an enemy, then why wouldn't you yourself qualify.

"I am my own worst enemy" "Sometimes, I even confound myself"

Seriously, if you're going to stretch the definition to include a sparring partner, then it stretches just as easily to cover the topic of the thread.

As I said, they are so broadly encompassing that they are effectively convenient placeholders, and I could pull a dozen more examples from the rules that would have you stretching the definition just as far.


So the rules aren't specific enough to clarify what constitutes an enemy and what constitutes a foe.

Did it ever occur to you that it might vary as to what it means to become a foe or an ally, especially from person to person, and creature to creature? And that by providing a singular definition, it actually significantly reduces and bogs down how combat and such works, so they didn't define it for ease of gameplay?

The same concept applies here. It doesn't matter what the general definition of the term might be. What matters is the intentions behind the definition.

In the case of AC, "enemy" can most encompassingly mean "Anyone you don't want to hit you." This is the most practical definition, and makes sense when you're trying to touch an Ally with Protection from Evil who has been Charmed, and they have received orders to not be touched by you.

But in this case regarding the Rage Power, "foe" is counterintuitive to the intent that the spirits are wanting to harm subjects outside of that which is controlling them (i.e. the Bloodrager), especially when in most cases of controlling (i.e. Dominate/Charm Person), it doesn't follow suicidal actions. Being commanded to 'harm' the Bloodrager is essentially telling the Spirits to try to kill themselves, which every form of known mindcontrol disallows.

Suggesting it's RAW does make a case for it, which is sensible. But suggesting it's RAI is absolutely ludicrous.


Dude, I'm agreeing with you completely. The issue is that there isn't some mystical red team/ blue team that changes how the rules govern creature interaction.

If you want to run those spirits as entities with their own will, that's one thing. If they are extensions of the will of the character, then they should be able to harm a character just as easily as the character can punch himself in the face.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Dude, I'm agreeing with you completely. The issue is that there isn't some mystical red team/ blue team that changes how the rules govern creature interaction.

If you want to run those spirits as entities with their own will, that's one thing. If they are extensions of the will of the character, then they should be able to harm a character just as easily as the character can punch himself in the face.

Perhaps. But the argument of Dominate Person, where they become an extension of the will of a character, it doesn't obey suicidal orders, and it's being told to attack the person that created it (and said person's death would end up actually making itself no longer exist, resulting in self-destructive activity), means it falls into a Catch-22.

When it falls into a logic loop, it doesn't really make much sense to follow orders, especially when the only jurisdiction the creator has over the spirits is which person it can harm. If it can't harm that person (i.e. Negative Energy Affinity), that too no longer becomes grounds for being a valid target, and therefore fails.


??? What does dominate person etc. have to do with anything? These aren't charm spelled entities, they're part of a spirit rage power, they have nothing to do with one another.

Just something being under control of something else doesn't mean it follows charm rules. Summons still follow suicidal orders, for example. Hell, regular humans in real life follow suicidal orders all the time at the mundane request of other humans. Though more important than any of that is that there simply aren't rules for what you're claiming.

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