I had this thought so i checked up on it and sure enough, it's supported by RAW.
You can according to RAW use the Disarm combat maneuver to forcibly dismount an opponent. If you Disarm the Horse (Griffin, Dragon, Etc...), it Drops whatever its carrying.
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Disarm feat, or a similar ability, attempting to disarm a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Attempting to disarm a foe while unarmed imposes a –4 penalty on the attack.If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands). If your attack fails by 10 or more, you drop the weapon that you were using to attempt the disarm. If you successfully disarm your opponent without using a weapon, you may automatically pick up the item dropped.
Do you also define living creatures as items for spellcasting purposes?
Per the rules, an item is a nonliving object, with no ability scores. Constructs and undead are non-living creatures, though constructs often have the rider of 'may be targeted if a spell may target objects'.
Therefore, riders are NOT objects.
As far as dismounting, the only ways I can see (Beyond Unseat) are Reposition, Drag, or Bull Rush-something that moves him out of his mount's space. (And bull rush is questionable as he would have to leave the mount's space, but you can't follow him through his mount).
|
Admittedly at +5 DC (for riding bareback)Couldnt you just sunder or disarm the saddle to make the rider fall off without questionable interpretations?No, probably not. Saddles aren't required to stay on the mount, they just make it more comfortable and easier. If you sunder the saddle the rider should probably get a Ride check to stay on the mount. Currently there are no rules to cover what should happen if you sunder the saddle and it would need to be made up.more than that i would think. Without the straps youd end up with a piece of leather between you and the horse, making it much harder to grip with your knees, especially since youre now not only trying to keep yourself up, but the weight of the saddle and anything attached to it as well.
For example, this saddle is only loose and not even heavy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi9J5iopwD0
Honestly if a saddle is sundered, and I am GMing, I will probably dump the rider on the ground with a d6 of nonlethal damage. I have never heard of a single instance of a rider being able to stay on a horse with a broken girth strap.
If a saddle was sundered I think the most reasonable decision would be to have the rider make a ride check to remain on the mount.
If a saddle was sundered I think the most reasonable decision would be to have the rider make a ride check to remain on the mount.
At what DC? This is an undefined scenario within the rules set. When you're riding with a saddle, you're basically riding a saddle and assuming it's attached to the horse. Sundering the saddle breaks that assumption.
If we base this on realism, we're probably looking at DC 30-40 or so. Riding bareback is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than riding with a broken or loose saddle. I think a comparably difficult task would be climbing a greased vertical wall with no hand holds.
Another reasonable option might be a Reflex save, but again, we have no basis within the rules to determine the DC.
From a sunder of the saddle strap, I'd say a Ride check with a hefty penalty. I know bareback is +5 DC, but we're talking about the unexpected transition from saddle to bareback. With your feet in the stirrups. And the saddle and various straps between your control surfaces and the horse. Absolutely can be done (see stunt riders at rodeos), but it certainly shouldn't be easy.
What DC? Well as you say it isn't defined, so we are going to go into DM fiat territory, which can be argued for days with no conclusion.
Personally I think 30-40 is a little unreasonable. I would probably go 20 or 25. But again, no RAW for this scenario, so no real point in arguing it.
|
If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
How do you trip someone not using their feet to stand? The rules imply that this can't be done because you can't trip flying creatures. Can you trip someone laying down? Are there any rules that talk about tripping people that are seated?
How do you trip someone not using their feet to stand? The rules imply that this can't be done because you can't trip flying creatures. Can you trip someone laying down? Are there any rules that talk about tripping people that are seated?If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
There absolutely are rules that talk about tripping people that are seated.
The trip rules.
If you aren't already prone, tripping can be used to make you prone. That's it.
Like I said before though, probably easier to just kill or trip the horse.
|
|
How do you trip someone not using their feet to stand? The rules imply that this can't be done because you can't trip flying creatures. Can you trip someone laying down? Are there any rules that talk about tripping people that are seated?If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
There absolutely are rules that talk about tripping people that are seated.
The trip rules.
If you aren't already prone, tripping can be used to make you prone. That's it.
Like I said before though, probably easier to just kill or trip the horse.
I agree it's easier to kill or trip the mount. I don't agree that "that's it".
I agree it's easier to kill or trip the mount. I don't agree that "that's it".How do you trip someone not using their feet to stand? The rules imply that this can't be done because you can't trip flying creatures. Can you trip someone laying down? Are there any rules that talk about tripping people that are seated?If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
There absolutely are rules that talk about tripping people that are seated.
The trip rules.
If you aren't already prone, tripping can be used to make you prone. That's it.
Like I said before though, probably easier to just kill or trip the horse.
We gonna talk about crouching/sitting now? ;)
|
|
If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
Technically he nonlethaled the horse to unconsious.
That's called a "Barbarian Trip"
|
What DC? Well as you say it isn't defined, so we are going to go into DM fiat territory, which can be argued for days with no conclusion.
Personally I think 30-40 is a little unreasonable. I would probably go 20 or 25. But again, no RAW for this scenario, so no real point in arguing it.
Soft Fall is 15, and Swift Mount is 20, so 25 seems reasonable for effective combining the two, possibly requiring the rider to use his immediate action.
Per the rules, an item is a nonliving object, with no ability scores. Constructs and undead are non-living creatures, though constructs often have the rider of 'may be targeted if a spell may target objects'.
Therefore, riders are NOT objects.As far as dismounting, the only ways I can see (Beyond Unseat) are Reposition, Drag, or Bull Rush-something that moves him out of his mount's space. (And bull rush is questionable as he would have to leave the mount's space, but you can't follow him through his mount).
Wait, so you an disarm a horse of its construct rider? They can be targeted as a objects, are non-living, and therefore should be disarmable!
Criminies, man, are you people tough, and rude.
Did you ever, even once, consider just asking the rider to get down from the horse first?
Sheesh, people, man.
Or you can scare him right off his horse... that would be funny...
Oh if your a Druid/Hunter/Cleric of certain domains/Ranger/Sorcerer of certain bloodlines/Witch/Oracle of Certain mysteries/Shaman you can always charm/dominate the horse...
Now THAT would be an interesting scenerio. How would you define the status of a horse to its master? Is is necessarily friendly? Maybe the horse is just trained the rider has no real connection to it (its just one of the warhorses or somethin). Cuz that horse suddenly is very friendly to you... and if it dont particulairly care for the guy on top it... its gonna have no qualms about throwing the guy off...
|
|
Like when my half-ogre character grabbed his Great Axe, approached the locked door, and said, "I'll pick the lock!"If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
Technically he nonlethaled the horse to unconsious.
That's called a "Barbarian Trip"
Older version:
the dwarf pick up his axe and say "I use my Charisma."
The most fun trap disabler I ever played was my Orc Barbarian.
Trap Wrecker is a good Feat.
We used to joke that he could smash everything. Walls, doors, traps, people, spells, language barriers (MAX LINGUISTICS BIATCH), ancient curses, and on one occasion: The party (*Grumble grumble*Damn Nat 1s*Grumble Grumble*).
|
Like when my half-ogre character grabbed his Great Axe, approached the locked door, and said, "I'll pick the lock!"If you have ki throw, you trip the rider and move him to another square that's adjacent to you...unless you're Mongo, that is.I like the idea of just tripping the horse... but does that work with large sized/four limbs?
Really, why even waste the action? Unless it is a paladins mount/animal companion, just kill the damn horse.
Technically he nonlethaled the horse to unconsious.
That's called a "Barbarian Trip"
The ol' barbarian knock spell. Not to be confused with the bardic knock spell, where you knock on the door and murder whoever opens it.