No modification by sunder material ? I don't think a spear with a wooden shaft and fully metal warhammer should cost same price as one is much easier to lose than other.
And after weapon becomes magical it's mundane price is mostly irrelevant.
No modification by sunder material ? I don't think a spear with a wooden shaft and fully metal warhammer should cost same price as one is much easier to lose than other.
Yeah, but that depends on the material. The.weapon itself doesn't matter.
I suppose I could add a modification for weapons madw mostly of metal, wood or whatever... But I think that would make things needlessly complicated.
And after weapon becomes magical it's mundane price is mostly irrelevant.
It's irrelevant even before that.... Which is why I forgot to add it to the rules.
Still, that should be noted, in case someone is playing a game with super-tight money inflow. :P
That should work... Though she does use the same blade instead of two different ends of the same weapon...Hmmm... I might add an "extendable" modification, which allows the weapon to change its reach... Gotta think about how to price that one...
I only put it together this way based on your gun gauntlets being built as double weapons- since it's a double light weapon, I just figured you could only use one 'end' at a time, and only wield it in one hand.
If you're going to do the 'extendable' thing, you may as well make it a 'transforming' type and allow some action (I'd say make it the same as meteor hammer- one free action at the beginning of the turn) to switch between two forms of the weapon. Probably price it the same way as double.
Although, that does bring up the phrasing of your current 'double' mod-
Each end of a double weapon counts as a light or one-handed weapon of the same category (simple, martial or exotic) and range (melee or ranged).
This sounds like you shouldn't be able to mix a melee weapon with a ranged one (which is why I had suggested the hybrid mod upthread, before you added the sample weapons). Since you posted an example otherwise, I'd probably remove the "and range (melee or ranged)" part of that line.
As for pricing, the only time I think of it as being all that relevant is for the poor lvl 1 characters who have to stretch their meager budgets across weapons, armor, and supplies.
EDIT: Oh, and another clarification question. For your automatic crank mod, it says
This ability functions exactly like the Crank (Manual) modification, but the cranking and reload of the weapon is done automatically.
Does that include hands necessary for reload/reload time? Balance-wise, I would assume so, but mentally it's harder to parse the idea of an auto-loader taking a full-round action to load. Or is it intended to only automate the draw (like a spring-loaded catch), and it still takes such-and-such time to actually get the bolt/bullet/etc. in to place?
I will say, I think my home campaigns will assume that auto-crank bludgeoning weapons are now 'pistols,' crank piercing weapons are crossbows, string bludgeons are slingshots, and string pierce-rs are bows. Fits right at home in the Thunderscape setting and rules.
Weapons made using this by PCs would definitely need to have GM approval before use.
I would worry to see a PC with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Giant Hammer and be wielding this:
Giant Hammer
Two-handed weapon | 2d12 | B | 20x2 | Reach, Trip
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I would recommend just having 1 simple damage chart:
1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d8 | 3d6 | 4d6 | +2d6 per increase
Other suggestions:
Alternate Damage Type: Change the base damage type of the weapon to B, P or S.
Requirements: None. Cost: 0*
Energy Damage: Change the base damage type of the weapon to Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire.
Requirements: None. Cost: 2
Cone Attack: Halve the range of the weapon. The weapon gains the Scatter Weapon Quality.
Requirements: Ranged weapon. Cost: 3
Reduced Damage: Reduce the damage dice of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This modification can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Requirements: None. Cost: -2
Reduced Range: Reduce the range of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This modification can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack. Minimum 10 ft.
Requirements: Thrown or ranged weapon. Cost: -1
I only put it together this way based on your gun gauntlets being built as double weapons- since it's a double light weapon, I just figured you could only use one 'end' at a time, and only wield it in one hand.
If you're going to do the 'extendable' thing, you may as well make it a 'transforming' type and allow some action (I'd say make it the same as meteor hammer- one free action at the beginning of the turn) to switch between two forms of the weapon. Probably price it the same way as double.
Well, "Double" weapons are more for when the same weapon has 2 separate edges or function. Like a sword with two blades, or a rifle with a bayonet, etc. In the case of Ivy's Valentine, both "modes" of the weapon use the same blade. (unlike, say, the Gun Gauntlet or Kenshi's reverse katana).
Although, that does bring up the phrasing of your current 'double' mod-
Each end of a double weapon counts as a light or one-handed weapon of the same category (simple, martial or exotic) and range (melee or ranged).This sounds like you shouldn't be able to mix a melee weapon with a ranged one (which is why I had suggested the hybrid mod upthread, before you added the sample weapons). Since you posted an example otherwise, I'd probably remove the "and range (melee or ranged)" part of that line.
Ah, indeed. I forgot to remove that restriction from the ability's "prototype".
As for pricing, the only time I think of it as being all that relevant is for the poor lvl 1 characters who have to stretch their meager budgets across weapons, armor, and supplies.
Yup, still... It should be there.
EDIT: Oh, and another clarification question. For your automatic crank mod, it says
This ability functions exactly like the Crank (Manual) modification, but the cranking and reload of the weapon is done automatically.Does that include hands necessary for reload/reload time? Balance-wise, I would assume so, but mentally it's harder to parse the idea of an auto-loader taking a full-round action to load. Or is it intended to only automate the draw (like a spring-loaded catch), and it still takes such-and-such time to actually get the bolt/bullet/etc. in to place?
Well, a more advanced firearm would probably have "Improved Reload" and/or "Improved Ammo Capacity". The automatic crank (which doesn't necessarily have to be an actual crank, BTW. It might just as well be just another name for a different rule for firearms) doesn't shorten the time necessary to reload the weapon.
While these rules allow players and GMs to create their weapons, it's still made with a mostly medieval/renaissance setting in mind. It won't work very well for a campaign that includes machine guns.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback! :)
Weapons made using this by PCs would definitely need to have GM approval before use.
I would worry to see a PC with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Giant Hammer and be wielding this:Giant Hammer
Two-handed weapon | 2d12 | B | 20x2 | Reach, Trip
Worry?!
With so many busted feats around, if a player of mine decided to grab EWP just so they can wield a really big big hammer, I'd say that's freaking awesome! Much better than having yet another dude carrying a falcata! XD
(Also, I should note that while I added it for completeness' sake, the Trip property if awful)!
Other suggestions:
Alternate Damage Type: Change the base damage type of the weapon to B, P or S.
Requirements: None. Cost: 0*
I'm considering something like this... But the specifics are a bit hard to work out due to a few other things I want to change/include...
Energy Damage: Change the base damage type of the weapon to Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire.
Requirements: None. Cost: 2
I think this one is better as a magical enhancement. This system is mostly focused on base weapons.
Cone Attack: Halve the range of the weapon. The weapon gains the Scatter Weapon Quality.
Requirements: Ranged weapon. Cost: 3
This is a good idea.
Reduced Damage: Reduce the damage dice of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This modification can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Requirements: None. Cost: -2Reduced Range: Reduce the range of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This modification can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack. Minimum 10 ft.
Requirements: Thrown or ranged weapon. Cost: -1
I've considered the idea of adding "Flaws" to the system, but I think they'd screw up the math. I really don't want to allow martial falcatas and such.
I might add them as an extra optional rule... All I can promise is that I'll take the idea in consideration.
As usual, thank you for the feedback. :)
I would recommend just having 1 simple damage chart:
1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d8 | 3d6 | 4d6 | +2d6 per increase
I might do just that. Thanks for the idea...
I actually considered using a single progression for all weapons, but I really wanted two-handed weapons to have a higher minimum damage and a faster "ad nauseam" progression. :)
Well, "Double" weapons are more for when the same weapon has 2 separate edges or function. Like a sword with two blades, or a rifle with a bayonet, etc. In the case of Ivy's Valentine, both "modes" of the weapon use the same blade. (unlike, say, the Gun Gauntlet or Kenshi's reverse katana).
See, I think of Kenshin's sword as being a single blade, which he generally just flips over if he's going to use the other side. He can't rightly TWF with it, so I figured a similar application would work. Either way, since this system is meant more for the crunchy side of things, it seems like a simple enough work-around (the only question it brings up is how to price the weapon for enchantment purposes. Not really sure how the Meteor Hammer works in this scenario either, so I'd say "however you rule that."
Well, a more advanced firearm would probably have "Improved Reload" and/or "Improved Ammo Capacity". The automatic crank (which doesn't necessarily have to be an actual crank, BTW. It might just as well be just another name for a different rule for firearms) doesn't shorten the time necessary to reload the weapon.While these rules allow players and GMs to create their weapons, it's still made with a mostly medieval/renaissance setting in mind. It won't work very well for a campaign that includes machine guns.
Yeah, no machine guns here. Thunderscape is meant to be a steampunk setting, where most firearms are still in the wheel-lock and powder states, which fits the extended reload time much better than otherwise.
This way, building a gun more advanced than that requires more investment.
Anyway, thank you for the feedback! :)
No problem! Thank you for a simple, flexible solution to designing much more interesting weapons.
While I'm here, I also had an idea for how to adjust proficiency, since my home game will be using this system exclusively over those in the other books.
All classes are proficient with Simple weapon templates. Any class that would be proficient with all martial weapons, is proficient with all martial templates. Any other class gets to pick a number of martial base templates based on their BAB. 1/2=0, 3/4=1, Full=2.
Monks get proficiency with any template that has the 'monk' mod.
Templates are separated by base damage, size, and proficiency category, so 'simple/light/piercing' is separate from 'simple/light/bludgeoning' or 'simple/one-handed/piercing.'
MWP grants 1 more base template, whereas EWP grants proficiency with a specific weapon/mods combination, to make it more of a 'signature weapon' thing.
Also, a case for transformative weapon: I want to make Ragna's sword/scythe from Blazblue. Short version, I want to switch between what is effectively a greatsword, and a scythe. If we use Transformative (as opposed to double), I can effectively have two 2-handed weapons, but can only use 1 on any given round, and switch based on whether I want big dmg spikes, or something more consistent.
Or, I suppose I could use your extendable property and just make the 'scythe' have reach. Hmm...
To me, the diference between a Double weapon and a Extendable one is that in the first, there are differents bits of metal hitting the enemy in each weapon end (e.g.: kenshin's reverse katana can't hit with the sharp side and the blunt side at the same time, though it's possible to vary them mid attack. But they are different parts of the blade. Ivy's weapon hits the enemy with the same parts all the time. The difference is that in the whip mode, each "fragment" of the blade is further apart from the other, but the surface of impact is the same.
The only major problem I'm having right now is that it isn't possible to build a longbow... I suppose having crit 20/x2 will have to do for now. I might fix that later, when I revise ranged weapons.
To me, the diference between a Double weapon and a Extendable one is that in the first, there are differents bits of metal hitting the enemy in each weapon end (e.g.: kenshin's reverse katana can't hit with the sharp side and the blunt side at the same time, though it's possible to vary them mid attack. But they are different parts of the blade. Ivy's weapon hits the enemy with the same parts all the time. The difference is that in the whip mode, each "fragment" of the blade is further apart from the other, but the surface of impact is the same.
I guess that makes sense. I think my issue is that double weapons are normally always 2-handed weapons: you need to use a separate hand for each end, with each end being the equivalent of a light weapon. So, if a double weapon is smaller than two-handed, it seems to me that you would need to change the grip in order to use it properly.
Also, when looking at Ivy's weapon, the same edge is always hitting, but the weapon stats are very different in its two forms- grappling or entangling with the whip makes total sense, but neither of those would work while it's a short sword, so you're either wasting build points on half of the weapon, or sacrificing some variety of utility. I'm thinking that either the 'extendable' mod should work like the double one, where each mode is upgraded separately (but the weapon would only have one enchant-able facet, unlike double weapons), or that using 'double' on any size smaller than two-handed would require some form of grip change. It also avoids the issue of dual-wielding two double weapons.
The only major problem I'm having right now is that it isn't possible to build a longbow... I suppose having crit 20/x2 will have to do for now. I might fix that later, when I revise ranged weapons.
Personally, I think giving ranged weapons the same distinctions as melee (better threat, crit, or dmg) is just fine. Maybe drop the range difference? Or have reload time be a variant factor as well?
That, or reduce the cost of Improved Crit/Threat. Maybe only +2 for changing a 20/x2 to something else, +3 for additional steps, and +4 to add both? Ranged can't get 19-20/x3 without being exotic (and no room for any mods further than that), but I feel like that's OK.
Also, I support removing the requirement for dmg types on Improved Crit/Threat, since we aren't doing the same for Improved Dmg for bludgeoning, as it makes it much cheaper to build a dmg-efficient slashing or piercing weapon (the crits have a larger impact on builds than die size, IME).
The only major problem I'm having right now is that it isn't possible to build a longbow... I suppose having crit 20/x2 will have to do for now. I might fix that later, when I revise ranged weapons.
Maybe it's why Longbows are so dang superior to every other option.
If you did want to use flaws, here's what I've come up with:
You can apply any number of flaws to a weapon to gain more Craft Points. Each modification will list how many flaws that it’s worth. Consult this chart to determine how many Craft Points you regain with the flaws:
1 Flaw - 1 CP
2 Flaws - 2 CP
4 Flaws - 3 CP
5 Flaws - 4 CP
7 Flaws - 5 CP
8 Flaws - 6 CP
Each additional 2 Flaws - +1 CP
Explosive: If the wielder rolls a natural 1 (or 2 if Unreliable was taken twice) on an attack roll with this weapon while it has the broken condition, it explodes. When a nonmagical weapon explodes, it is destroyed. Magical weapons are wrecked, which means they can’t be used until they are fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell or an appropriate craft skill). When a weapon explodes, pick one corner of your square—the explosion creates a 5’ burst from that point of origin. Any creature within this burst (including the weapon’s wielder) takes damage as if it had been hit by the weapon—a DC 12 Reflex save halves this damage.
Requirements: Fragile; Ranged Weapon or Elemental Damage modification. Flaws: 1
Fragile: If the wielder rolls a natural 1 (or 2 if Unreliable was taken twice) on an attack roll with this weapon while it has the broken condition, the weapon is destroyed.
Requirements: Unreliable. Flaws: 1
Imprecise/Unwieldy: Attacks with this weapon take a -1 penalty to hit. If the weapon is a thrown weapon, this can be applied to either melee or ranged attacks instead of both but at a -2 penalty.
Special: This flaw can be taken multiple times to a maximum of -4 to hit.
Requirements: None. Flaws: 1
Increased Reload Time: Increase the reload time of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This flaw can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Requirements: Ranged weapon. Flaws: 1
Reduced Damage: Reduce the damage dice of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This flaw can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.
Requirements: None. Flaws: 2
Reduced Range: Reduce the range of the weapon by 1 step.
Special: This flaw can be taken multiple times. Its effects stack. Minimum 10 ft.
Requirements: Thrown or ranged weapon. Flaws: 1
Unreliable: A weapon with this quality gains the broken condition if the wielder rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with the weapon.
Special: This flaw can be taken a second time, causing it to become broken on a roll of a 1 or 2.
Requirements: None. Flaws: 1
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I think the defining characteristic of double weapons is that they can be used to TWF, and are enhanced as two weapons. If you do not intend the weapon to be used with TWF, it should have its own property. I'd also suggest that light or one-handed weapons should not be double weapons in this light since the game generally expects TWF to require two hands.
There's an odd bit of balance with a non-TWF version, though. On the one hand, having a weapon that is enhanced singly and can shift between two modes with a grip change is probably worth more than 1 craft point because of the increased versatility. On the other, if you can't TWF enhancing two weapons is expensive, so users will probably mainly use one mode/side.
Hello, everyone!
Just passing by to reassure you guys & gals that I'm still taking notes of your criticism and suggestions. The last few days have been pretty busy and my internet isn't back yet, so I haven't been able to post as much as I'd like.
Still, I wanted to once again thank you all for the feedback. I'll keep listening and taking it into consideration. :)
And if you enjoy my work and would like to see more stuff created by the same sick mind, check out my profile or the offical one for Lemmy Homebrew Corp for even more homebrew shenanigans!
Cheers!
I think the defining characteristic of double weapons is that they can be used to TWF, and are enhanced as two weapons. If you do not intend the weapon to be used with TWF, it should have its own property. I'd also suggest that light or one-handed weapons should not be double weapons in this light since the game generally expects TWF to require two hands.
There's an odd bit of balance with a non-TWF version, though. On the one hand, having a weapon that is enhanced singly and can shift between two modes with a grip change is probably worth more than 1 craft point because of the increased versatility. On the other, if you can't TWF enhancing two weapons is expensive, so users will probably mainly use one mode/side.
Agreed. I'm not sure what to price it at, but I'd rather restrict 'double' to a two-handed weapon, and figure out something else for multiple forms. If one point is too cheap, I think two would do it- an exotic weapon that is essentially 2 martial weapons, or a martial weapon that is 2 simple weapons.
As for enchantment, it might have to be further broken down, as changing from, say, a greatsword to a scythe is a relatively minor change (I can't think of any enchantments that wouldn't just carry over between forms), changing a saber into a pistol would have two very different outcomes. Maybe have enchanting it affect both forms for 1.5x its normal cost, and allow non-compatible enchantments to be traded for equivalent costs (such as trading distant for keen), but if it can be applied to both (like flaming), then it must apply to both. For unusual abilities (I know there was one in 3.5 that cost 1 for melee, but 3 for ranged), the difference becomes available credit for equivalent cost.
Soon, all of RWBY's weapons will be build-able if we continue down this path.
The defining characteristic of a double weapon is that it has two separate "ends" that can be used independently or simultaneously, via TWF. Being a two-handed weapon is incidental.
There is no point in restricting double weapons to two-handed weapons. The number of attacks, enhancement cost and TWF penalties you can make are all still the same, anyway... It's only marginally better than wielding two equal weapons (and that small advantage is balanced by the additional craft point cost) After all, even if you use the same hand to wield both ends of the weapon, one of those ends will be an off-hand attack anyway.
It'd be even more pointless if I were to add another modification that does basically the same thing but for light/one-handed weapons.
Double weapons are innately balanced by the fact that you have to spend twice as much gold to enhance them and, in this case, the fact that both ends of that weapon have 1 fewer craft points.
Yang's "gun-gauntlets" (or whatever they are called) can be well-represented by double weapons, even though each one only occupies 1 hand. There is no need to make things needlessly complicated by adding a separate modification that serves the same purpose.
The defining characteristic of a double weapon is that it has two separate "ends" that can be used independently or simultaneously, via TWF. Being a two-handed weapon is incidental.
There is no point in restricting double weapons to two-handed weapons. The number of attacks, enhancement cost and TWF penalties you can make are all still the same, anyway... It's only marginally better than wielding two equal weapons (and that small advantage is balanced by the additional craft point cost) After all, even if you use the same hand to wield both ends of the weapon, one of those ends will be an off-hand attack anyway.
It'd be even more pointless if I were to add another modification that does basically the same thing but for light/one-handed weapons.
Double weapons are innately balanced by the fact that you have to spend twice as much gold to enhance them and, in this case, the fact that both ends of that weapon have 1 fewer craft points.
Yang's "gun-gauntlets" (or whatever they are called) can be well-represented by double weapons, even though each one only occupies 1 hand. There is no need to make things needlessly complicated by adding a separate modification that serves the same purpose.
I understand your reasoning re:double weapons. I gave it some more thought, and can picture the image better now (visualization of an idea is almost always key for me) re: Kenshin's sword, Yang's gauntlets, and even why you wouldn't use it for Ivy's sword.
My only complaint as-is re: the extendable property is that it ends up with mod points being wasted on one form or the other (improved whip and entangle either can't be taken, or only work/matter half the time). I think I'd still argue for a transforming weapon mod, so as to allow for a little more diversity between 'modes,' but I don't want to keep pushing it (especially since, it being a home-brew system, I can just try it out in my own games).
Either way, I can still make use of the double/extended property to make another RWBY weapon: Blake's whip/sword/gun thing!
Blake's Sword (Double Weapon)
This weapon is complex and versatile, just like its wielder
- Main Weapon (sword)
[1d8 / 19-20 / S / Melee] [Disarm/Trip]
Template: Melee Exotic One-handed Slashing Weapon [1d6 / 19-20/x2 / S / Melee]
Modifications: Improved Damage (2cp), Extendable (whip-like) (1cp), Trip (0 cp), Double (1cp), Monk (2cp), Finesse (1cp)
- Secondary Weapon (pistol)
[1d8 / 20x2 / P / 60 ft]
Template: Ranged Exotic One-handed Piercing Weapon [1d6 / 20x2 / P / 60 ft]
Modifications: Double (1cp), Monk (2cp), Improved Dmg (2cp), Improved Reload (1cp), Gunpowder Weapon (0cp), Deadly (0cp)
...can you tell I like that show yet? And this system!
I've never seen her use that whip to actually hit someone, so I don't think it's necessary to use the Improved Whip mod here anyway. If you want that (without investing the feats, which is still an option I suppose), I think the Monk mod could be replaced on both parts- she strikes me more as a 'ninja' character. I think her second 'sword' is just a combat sheath. I don't think that's worth adding a bunch of features to, so I'd probably leave it as the one from d20PFSRD.
My only complaint as-is re: the extendable property is that it ends up with mod points being wasted on one form or the other (improved whip and entangle either can't be taken, or only work/matter half the time). I think I'd still argue for a transforming weapon mod, so as to allow for a little more diversity between 'modes,' but I don't want to keep pushing it (especially since, it being a home-brew system, I can just try it out in my own games).
I don't mind you "pushing" your suggestion. I've been fiddling with a "transformative" modification, but it's difficult to make it balanced and "convincing" without going too much into magic territory (and remember, this homebrew is designed to create new base weapons, not magical enhancements. And advanced technology isn't too much of a priority either, though it can represented to a good extent).
Now, the Extendable modification was a simple way of creating not only things like Ivy's Valentine, but also things as simple as a three-section-staff that can be folded into a normal staff.
Another thing I'm considering is a "Alternate Damage Type", in which the weapons is neither an weapon that deals two types of damage nor an actual double weapon, just a weapon with a single blade, but that is incapable of dealing both types damage at the same time.
The advantage over a double weapon is that a single enhancement affects both "ends", but it also comes with the drawback that you're still limited to a single weapon. It should be cheaper than the "ADDitional Damage Type modification, though, as the weapon would be incapable of dealing both types of damage at the same time.
I'm pretty sure I saw that idea somewhere in this thread... So, again, thank you all for the feedback! ;)
EDIT: Also, I'm fiddling around with a "Flaws" system, but it'll probably be more limited than what Scud had in mind and will come with a tag saying they are extra-optional rules, and may or may not be well balanced.
I don't mind you "pushing" your suggestion. I've been fiddling with a "transformative" modification, but it's difficult to make it balanced and "convincing" without going too much into magic territory (and remember, this homebrew is designed to create new base weapons, not magical enhancements. And advanced technology isn't too much of a priority either, though it can represented to a good extent).
Actually, I'm thinking it might be cool to sort of divide off some of the mods as specifically being 'advanced tech,' or the like. Not suggesting you do that here, just that, since my home campaign is set in a different tech age than the base PF/Golarion assumption, having some mods be 'high tech' stuff could be interesting- maybe adjusting the cost/availability of some mods/craft points. But, that's probably its own separate project.
Hmm... Other off-my-head ideas. What about a mod for ranged weapons that lets you throw alchemical items farther, like a sling that throws alchemist fire? Or would it be simpler to just use alchemical ammunition for that?
As for 'alternate damage,' that sounds like it might be a good thing- it'd be a 0-point mod, though. Or did you mean you'd increase the cost of additional damage types? Because I'm not sure that's worth more than one. Would the different damage types be modded differently? Because if so, that's more or less exactly what I've been asking for. If not, then it's still good for dealing with specific DR, which is a minor benefit (which, as a 0-point mod, sounds about right).
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There is no point in restricting double weapons to two-handed weapons. The number of attacks, enhancement cost and TWF penalties you can make are all still the same, anyway... It's only marginally better than wielding two equal weapons (and that small advantage is balanced by the additional craft point cost) After all, even if you use the same hand to wield both ends of the weapon, one of those ends will be an off-hand attack anyway.
The attacks are not going to change if the weapon is one-handed.
However you gain the ability to use a shield, or use the Deflect Arrows feat, or anything else that requires you to have a physical hand.
This may not be a huge advantage, but it is definitely an advantage.
Perhaps it would be balanced if a one-handed or light double weapon granted only 1/2 Str to damage on the primary and off-hand attack, and this could not be increased by abilities like double slice? That way you're at least trading off a little attack power compared to the two-handed TWF in exchange for the ability to have a free hand. Though it wouldn't affect things like gun attacks that don't add strength anyway.
However you gain the ability to use a shield, or use the Deflect Arrows feat, or anything else that requires you to have a physical hand.
This may not be a huge advantage, but it is definitely an advantage.
It's too small an advantage to warrant a nerf. It's the same advantage a longsword has over a greatsword... I don't think longsword should be nerfed either.
Besides, the Double weapon is spending an extra craft point on both weapon ends for the benefit of whatever advantages it provides to the wielder over fighting with two separate weapons.
Perhaps it would be balanced if a one-handed or light double weapon granted only 1/2 Str to damage on the primary and off-hand attack, and this could not be increased by abilities like double slice? That way you're at least trading off a little attack power compared to the two-handed TWF in exchange for the ability to have a free hand. Though it wouldn't affect things like gun attacks that don't add strength anyway.
The TWF part balances itself.
Your number of attacks per round is limited by your BAB. If you use a double weapon and want to use both ends, either you're alternating them or using TWF to use both, in which case, one of those weapons is making off-hand attacks (even if they use the same actual hand). If both ends of the weapon are one-handed you're eating a -4 to attack rolls.
However you gain the ability to use a shield, or use the Deflect Arrows feat, or anything else that requires you to have a physical hand.For instance a magus would be able to use the double weapon to TWF and still use spell combat.
Yup, but not as a two-handed weapon. (Since spell combat works like TWF).
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It's too small an advantage to warrant a nerf. It's the same advantage a longsword has over a greatsword... I don't think longsword should be nerfed either.
The longsword has a lower damage die. Also when you're actually using the longsword with a shield (as opposed to two-handing the one handed weapon) you miss out on the 1.5 Str from two-handing a weapon, so longsword+shield does significantly less damage than a greatsword.
Besides, the Double weapon is spending an extra craft point on both weapon ends for the benefit of whatever advantages it provides to the wielder over fighting with two separate weapons.
But there's no extra cost for a one-handed double weapon vs a two-handed double weapon, and there is an advantage.
The TWF part balances itself.
Your number of attacks per round is limited by your BAB. If you use a double weapon and want to use both ends, either you're alternating them or using TWF to use both, in which case, one of those weapons is making off-hand attacks (even if they use the same actual hand). If both ends of the weapon are one-handed you're eating a -4 to attack rolls.
The description of the property indicates otherwise:
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If your base template is a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you can choose to wield one of its ends two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Each end of a double weapon counts as a light or one-handed weapon of the same category (simple, martial or exotic) and (usually) the same range (melee or ranged) as well. Each end of the weapon can have different base template and modifications, but both of them must pay for the “Double” modification.
Requirements: None. Craft Points: 1 (per weapon end)
There's no indication that choosing a one-handed or two-handed weapon as a base template has any effect whatsoever on the double weapon, since both sides are treated as a one-handed or light weapon anyway (which presumably includes using the appropriate damage die), meaning a two-handed double weapon with a one-handed and light end would be identical to a one-handed double weapon with a one-handed and light end.
Note the gun-gauntlets sample weapon has both ends as light weapons, so there should not be a -4 penalty when using them to TWF. In fact they match the suggested damage for a Two-Handed (double) weapon on your melee templates table. However the description of the gauntlets suggests that each gauntlet is functional as a weapon occupying a single hand, not that you've got one punching and one firing gauntlet.
These beautifully crafted gauntlets come of hidden firearms attached to them.
- Main Weapon (Gauntlet)
[1d6 / 20x2 / B / Melee] [Disarm/Sunder]
Template: Melee Exotic Light Bludgeoning Weapon [1d6 / 20x2 / B / Melee]
Modifications: Attached (Limb) (1cp), Disarm (1cp), Concealed (0 cp), Double (1cp), Monk (2cp), Sunder (1 cp) - Secondary Weapon (Hand-Cannon)
[1d6 / 20x2 / B/P / 60 ft]
Template: Ranged Exotic Light Bludgeoning Weapon [1d6 / 20x2 / B/P / 60 ft]
Modifications: Additional Damage Type (Piercing) (1cp), Attached (Limb) (1cp), Concealed (0cp), Double (1cp), Gunpowder Weapon (0cp), Monk (2cp)
Is there something I'm missing? Does this description not reflect the way you intend it to work?
The longsword has a lower damage die. Also when you're actually using the longsword with a shield (as opposed to two-handing the one handed weapon) you miss out on the 1.5 Str from two-handing a weapon, so longsword+shield does significantly less damage than a greatsword.
So do one-handed weapons in this system. A Double weapon's end is either "one-handed" or "light". You can wield the "one-handed" side two-handed, but you still have the lower damage die... Just like longswords and greatswords.
But there's no extra cost for a one-handed double weapon vs a two-handed double weapon, and there is an advantage.
A very small one. And there is the damage thing.
The description of the property indicates otherwise
It says you can use it as if fighting with two-weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon... That's literally the same text found in the official books. The only difference is that in my homebrew it specifies you need a one-handed or two-handed base template to use it gain the extra damage for wielding it two-handed.
Since using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon doesn't magically give you extra attacks*, neither does using a Double weapon. You're still limited to the existing BAB/TWF rules.
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*
There's no indication that choosing a one-handed or two-handed weapon as a base template has any effect whatsoever on the double weapon, since both sides are treated as a one-handed or light weapon anyway (which presumably includes using the appropriate damage die), meaning a two-handed double weapon with a one-handed and light end would be identical to a one-handed double weapon with a one-handed and light end.
A Double weapon is basically a combination of two non-two-handed weapons fused together, but still wielded independently. I thought this was clear.
Note the gun-gauntlets sample weapon has both ends as light weapons, so there should not be a -4 penalty when using them to TWF. In fact they match the suggested damage for a Two-Handed (double) weapon on your melee templates table. However the description of the gauntlets suggests that each gauntlet is functional as a weapon occupying a single hand, not that you've got one punching and one firing gauntlet.Ah, that's an error on the noted damage die. It should match a light weapon. Probably a copy/paste mistake. Let me check...
EDIT: Just checked it. The damage die is correct. d6 for Exotic Bludgeoning Light Weapons I don't understand what is the problem.
Okay... I think I understand what Weirdo is trying to say... I'll post a revised text for the Double modification later. Probably not today, because I'm too tired to think... :P
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I'm starting to make sense. Going to try and clarify just in case :)
The damage for a two-handed double weapon is, sensibly, equivalent to the damage for two light weapons.
The damage for a double weapon wielded in one hand (like a gun gauntlet) should not be equivalent to that of a double weapon wielded in two hands.
It appears that this is the case.
It says you can use it as if fighting with two-weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon... That's literally the same text found in the official books. The only difference is that in my homebrew it specifies you need a one-handed or two-handed base template to use it gain the extra damage for wielding it two-handed.
It is the same text.
However, all currently published double weapons are two-handed. It appears to be an underlying assumption for the property - hence the need for a change to the rule about two-handing a double weapon to accommodate for the existence of light double weapons. I'm thinking that the text didn't change enough to take balance considerations into account.
Okay, hopefully this text clarify things and fix loopholes.
Double: A weapon with this modification has a separate end that acts as a secondary weapon. This secondary weapon is always a Light weapon, though the main weapon can be of any category and type.
You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal penalties and limitations associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using two weapons of the same category and type as the ends of your Double weapon. If one of the weapon ends uses a One-Handed or Two-Handed template, you can wield it two-handed, in which case, it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Each end of the weapon can have different base template and modifications, but both of them must pay for the “Double” modification (though some must be taken by both ends in order to apply), such as Attached .
Requirements: None. Craft Points: 1 (per weapon end)
I'll also remove the Template line for double weapons. Instead, each weapon end will use the template of whatever type of weapon it is.
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Thank you for taking the feedback seriously! I really appreciate the effort you're putting into this and understand it's difficult since you're wanting the property to be much more flexible than the usual model of "put two different weapons on either end of a stick."
Another concern, however:
Does the handedness of the main weapon determine how many hands are necessary to use it?
That is, a twohanded/light double weapon takes two hands, while a one handed/light double weapon takes one hand?
If so, is the intent to make double weapons not just superior to current double weapons (which are indeed lacklustre and need improvement) but to using two separate weapons?
Because a double weapon could deal the same damage as a one-handed & light weapon pair, but still be treated as a single weapon for stuff like weapon focus, and be used in a single hand (leaving the other free for a shield, deflect arrows, etc).
Also, I'm noting that this would make kenshin's blade impossible as currently presented (since it is a double weapon consisting of two one-handed blades).
Hmmm... I'd say a two-handed/light double weapon always takes 2 hands (like a musket with a bayonet), while a one-handed/light can be used either way (two-handed, one weapon at a time or TWFing) and light/light double weapon cannot be used two-handed (more specifically, it can be used two-handed, but like any other light weapon, it doesn't increase the Strength bonus to damage).
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On a separate note, I added the "Alternate Damage Type" modification (not to be confused with the "Additional Damage Type" modification), which allows an weapon to change what type of damage it deals with each attack, while at the same time, not being a double weapon but being incapable of dealing both types of damage at the same time. All enhancements and modifications affect all attacks, unless they require an specific type of damage.
e.g.: An weapon that alternates between Bludgeoning and Slashing damage would benefit from the Deadly modification and Flaming enhancement on all attacks, but would only benefit from Improved Critical Threat modification and Vorpal enhancement when dealing Slashing damage.
I changed the Reverse Katana to include this modification instead of being a Double weapon (since it uses the same blade, but can't deal both bludgeoning and slashing damage at the same time).
So what would gloves that functions like the man with the iron fists look like ?
Well... I haven't seen that movie, but from a quick view of its trailer, I'd say it's a Melee Martial Light Weapon with Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp) and Sunder (1 cp).
So...
[1d8/ 20/x2 / B / Melee] [Attached/Concealed]
Template: Melee Martial Light weapon.
Modifications: Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp), Sunder (1 cp)
Could make it exotic for some extra bang too...
Well... I haven't seen that movie, but from a quick view of its trailer, I'd say it's a Melee Martial Light Weapon with Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp) and Sunder (1 cp).
So...
[1d8/ 20/x2 / B / Melee] [Attached/Concealed]
Template: Melee Martial Light weapon.
Modifications: Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp), Sunder (1 cp)Could make it exotic for some extra bang too...
That's awesome, thanks Lemmy. Also your system is not bothering with classing weapons correct ?
That's awesome, thanks Lemmy. Also your system is not bothering with classing weapons correct ?Well... I haven't seen that movie, but from a quick view of its trailer, I'd say it's a Melee Martial Light Weapon with Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp) and Sunder (1 cp).
So...
[1d8/ 20/x2 / B / Melee] [Attached/Concealed]
Template: Melee Martial Light weapon.
Modifications: Attached (1 cp), Concealed (0 cp), Increased Damage (2 cp), Sunder (1 cp)Could make it exotic for some extra bang too...
Nope. There's little to no point in doing so in the actual RAW... I don't see any reason to bother doing so in this homebrew.
Good morning/evening/afternoon/night, dear customers.
The Research & Development Team of Lemmy Homebrew Corp has a query for you.
1- What kind of non-magical modifications would you like to add to the list?
2- Is there any iconic weapon from any game, show or other media that you feel should be possible to emulate using this system, but can't currently do so?
3- How do you picture a ranged weapon that deals purely (or at least, mainly) slashing damage? Can you point us to any example from fantasy or real life?
4- Do you see any problem with our base weapon templates? How do you suggest we fix it?
We thank you for your interest and hope you can enjoy our products!
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Lemmy Homebrew Corp - Turning Boredom & Free Time into Fun & Balance since 2012!
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3 - Riverbow.
I'm not entirely sure I like the balance for the double property, but I think it is now much more clear and reflects your goal for making weapon building as flexible as possible even if they're a little more powerful than standard. So seems like a success to me. Thanks for acting on my feedback, Lemmy Corp!
I also really like the new approach to Kenshin's blade.
If you want to see some ridiculous ranged weapons, just look at Painkiller. There's one that shoots Shurikens and Lightning. The painkiller itself would also probably do slashing damage.
Two questions:
1- So, it's impossible to frente a Scythe in this system, or I have my math wrong?
2- Can you do something like that to armor, Lemmy? :D
2- Can you do something like that to armor, Lemmy? :D
I think the PieceMeal Armor rules are what you want for that.
Two questions:
1- So, it's impossible to frente a Scythe in this system, or I have my math wrong?
Melee Martial 2-Handed Piercing Template - Add Improved Critical Multiplier and Additional Damage [Slashing] and it's as close as it gets. This system has established rules, so it's all but impossible to make it capable of reproducing every single weapon in RAW, since the only rules for those is a designer thinking "Eh... I guess that makes sense" and adding whatever properties he wants to the weapon.
However, for most weapons, a simple "Additional Damage Type" modification gets them pretty close.
2- Can you do something like that to armor, Lemmy? :D
That's one of my current homebrew projects, actually... But the last couple weeks have been pretty busy, so I didn't have the time to create much or update my old homebrew projects... Which is why this particular homebrew hasn't seen many changes lately, despite it being very fun to work on.
Hopefully, I'll have more free time starting next week, so I may be able to advance my homebrew stuff. ^^
Now you need to invent a feat that allows you to have more construction points specifically when you have x+ ranks in craft (weapons).
Very awesome option for gnomes who get proficiency with any weapon they craft themselves.
Now you need to invent a feat that allows you to have more construction points specifically when you have x+ ranks in craft (weapons).
The problem is doing that without breaking weapon balance . Part of my motivation for his homebrew is allowing people to create their custom weapons without having GMs worry about their players suddenly having access to an overpowered arsenal.
Very awesome option for gnomes who get proficiency with any weapon they craft themselves.
Indeed.
2- Can you do something like that to armor, Lemmy? :DI think the PieceMeal Armor rules are what you want for that.
Thanks pal, but this Paizo subsystem sucks major ass, and is not exactly what I'm looking for.
I think that Lemmy can get a system where is easy enough to make balanced armors. There is no reason at all to use a Padded Armor, a Half Plate or various armors in the system because they suck. In a system where I can have a Half-Plate and Full-Plate in different niches, I will be more that happy.
I feel like a ranged slashing weapon would look like a handheld catapult that launched buzz saws or Chakrams at people.