Hey folks! Hope I've gotten the right forum for this.
I'm looking to build a character - a tiefling alchemist, specifically. But having a bit of a thing for flintlocks I'm pretty determined to build them in somehow.
My first thought was on trying to make some kind of Vivisectionist Hyde that uses guns, but that seemed a tad on the complicated side - and I'm still new at the game. I'm now thinking that a 1 level dip in Gunslinger and grabbing the Explosive Missile discovery might be a much simpler option.
So with all that in mind - does anybody have any tips or advice? Anything I should grab right away or avoid like the plague? Particularly awesome Archetypes?
Hum Well if you are new to the game do two things.
Search the forum for Njolly's two guides, one for alchemist and oen for gunslinger and read them.
Otherwise. 1dip in gunslinger or 5levels into alchemist tend to be the easiest way.
Or if you don't mind the extra level you could dip into inspired swash buckler for Int to grit instead of Wisdom.
it makes for a fun gun+bombs and rapier + bombs depending on what you need at the time. but level dips are pretty big costs generally so carefully consider that one.
Guns (or any range reall) + sneak attack just won't do well. Due to the conditions to get sneak attack. SO i'd avoid it..
I recently made a similar design. I love poison so I got Toxitian +...(iforgot the name.. but it gives you trap finding and lets you make alchemist bomb traps)Alchemist archetype, and gunslinger dip to make something of a trap sniper for a one shot.
I loved shooting grenades laced with poison, and having had preppe the area prior so they come towards me and get blown up a bit more on the way. but that really only works in specific game types..
but yeah.. read the guides and they'll tell you so much.
Ah, Njolly's guides. No arguments there - if it wasn't for those I don't think I'd dare try anything more complicated than a straight fighter!
So Gunslinger 1/Swashbuckler(IB) 1/Alchemist X?
If I'm reading it right that'd get me Cha, Wis and Int all to grit/panache. Which is a bit nice, really. Plus the whole rapier and gun look is extra stylish.
Yeah I love that one. I still make myself INT more than cha or wis (int, wis, cha with regards to mental stats).
Just be sure about the whole reloading ability thing. Since some GM's (and maybe PFS? I'm not sure about that I rarely play pfs rules) won't allow reloading without an empty hand. Though most of my gm's don't mind the idea of allowing the reloading with the rapier in their hand.(or the idea of stabbing into the ground reloadingand picking it back up).
THough Raw explosive missle discovery doesn't require two hands and the standard action involved in this does include reloading.. Its weird reading though.
but yeah if your in a home game talk to gm.
If you are in PFS look into the rules on teifling tales. Their ability to hold an items in tail might count. I don't really know.
Otherwise its pretty straight forward dex based building.
Yeah, that sounds great. Any feats you'd recommend?
And yeah, the reloading rules are something I'll really need to make sure I've got my head around. I'm basically moving up from Beginner Box to full rules, so that's firmly in the category of "stuff I need to make sure I understand".
Knowing the DM, it's unlikely to be a problem. Reloading via tail should be fine, and gets points for being dashing.
I take it the approach to combat is more or less shoot everything with bombs and guns until they get in close, then hit them with the rapier?
Feats..
My character was pretty heavily focused on explosive missle over other effects. So more or less.
Well Fencing Grace so you get Dex to damage for your rapier. and it means you only need enough Str to carry what you want to carry.
Point blank shot and precise shot.
Since your using a gun, Deadly aim isn't bad since it is touch AC w/in the first increment. (Deadly aim does not work for touch attacks, but guns specifically allow it. it will not boost your bombs but does work for explosive missle discovery) it isn't super needed but can be nice if you hit consistantly enough anyway.
Were you wanting a pistol I assume?
From this point I suppose decide if you want to snag the normal ranged combat feats (i.e. get as many extra shots as you can. so like rapid shot etc) or focus else where.
I myself, since I had explosive missle discovery went elsewhere. I used Extra discovery to get more of my beloved discoveries. LIke spontaneous healing/healing touch (effectively giving you fast healing.. not amazing but sure is nice).
Could consider picking up frozen bomb or Force bomb. Frozen is opposite of ice, but more importantly that status effect it can give (if they fail the save) is pretty useful. I personally ended up skipping it for other discoveries and will just have fire and force (and always use force.. for my style and for the trip effect) The smoke line of bomb discovires can be pretty great, but take planning and experience to an extent. if this is your first time with an alchemist then read up on them and decide whether to try them, or focus on learning the basics and trying them later.
If you are wanting to bomb a lot then be sure to pick up precise bombs to not kill your friends or yourself (it sure is fun to drop a bomb right infront of you and not get effected. Other than the AOO anyway)
Fast Bombs can be great too, and also works with rapid shot I believe. Tons of bombs.
Rapid reload is pretty much absolutively needed. Though I forget if gunslinger gave you reloading of some kind.
There are better focused feats in those guides though
-------------------
How you fight will depend a lot on you money and your team.
Bullets are pretty costy early on; though making your own goes a long long way.
My group had pretty even amount of ranged (magic blasters) and melee (chunky bashers) so I usually let the enemies decide what I was doing.
I'd shoot the enemy ranged/mage folks, while defending my ranged folks when needed.
Usually I ended up shooting explosive missles into the enemy group(one guy usually ended up poison, then the force bomb triped a few if we were lucky), our physical guys charged in. After that i'd take pot shots with precise bombs (either thrown if close (cause touch AC) or via xbow if pretty far) avoiding damaging my friends.
Then I'd just adjust as needed per the fight. occasionally charging past the mosh pit to stab/stand near the enemy magic guy to pester him until he dies. or stopping an enemy charge via standing in the way and using my parry/repost to stop their charge.
I also picked up Infusion discovery. So I had handed out buffs to everyone in the morning. So they could chose when to use Enlarge person or healing etc. So that added a lot for the group.
Basically I was a great extra guy. I focused on doing what was empty and needed at the time.
So it'll depend on your group. so be sure to figure out what the other players want to be and how they want to play.
I've also played a pretty fun inspired blade bomb alchemist. Just a rapier, occasioanlly taking 5ft step back and carpet bombing the group I was fighting and then using parry/repost with combat reflexes to avoid the worst of the damages. Was also amusing.
As you play more you'll develop the style of gameplay you enjoy. I would note that, since I am a somewhat weird player according to most groups I play with.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo--- gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype
i just found that (was looking to update my old version) if you don't mind losing some of the deeds.
Deedeye is pretty useful
since your just dipping for gun use I think?
not sure if you can get deadeye from another source..
but if you didn't want to dip. or if you wanted to finesse a weapon other than a rapier.
I'm looking at pistol dagger.. though deadeye is really useful for those guns
Dirty Tactics Handbook should help with this. Toxicant Alchemist gives you the ability to create scaling DC poisons that you can apply to a weapon, which I believe standard rules should allow for a set number of pieces of ammo as well? It should stack with the bomb damage infused into Explosive Missile.
On the Gunslinger side of things, you'll want the Poison Shot Deed (grit feat). 15 foot cone spray options for poisons that are typically inhaled or ingested. Good close range support for a Gunslinger that doesn't want to use alchemical cartridges and increase their misfire chance; AND there's no chance of poisoning yourself, so if you're using an Alchemist archetype that gives up Poison Use(like Grenadier, which lets you slap alchemical items onto ammunition) that's another benefit.
At the totally non-optimal end of things, there's the Experimental Gunsmith archetype for Gnomes. The ONLY way I know of to get class-level scaling on the DCs for run of the mill alchemical items (tanglefoot, alchemist fire, etc). For the life of me I can't figure why they never made this (or Gun Scavenger) int-based for grit like they did Siege Gunner...
I love the toxicant I mentioned it up there, though since he is new at the game I think keeping things fairly basic to learn the basics is fun
Toxicant and the poison shot deed are tons of fun for the build though if you want to learn the semi complicated (or at least often misunderstod ) poison rules.
Though RAW poison shot doesn't work with toxicant's poison
poison shot:
Poison Shot
Prerequisite: Amateur GunslingerUC or gritUC class feature.
Benefit: You can spend 1 grit point to load your firearm
with 1 dose of inhaled or ingested poison as a move action.
This action has no chance of exposing you to the poison
(as if you had the poison use class feature). Shooting a
firearm loaded with a poison in this manner is a standard
action that provokes attacks of opportunity and sprays out
the poison in a 15-foot cone. Any creatures caught in the
blast take no damage but are exposed to this poison and
must each immediately attempt a save against the poison
as though the onset time had elapsed.
Techincally speaking. Toxicant's special poison is not labled as ingisted, contact, injury or inhaled. So RAW does not work (even though the poison can be applied to a weapon or a touch attack--implying it is contact. it is not labeled so RAW it is untyped poison. A special case) But feel free to ask your GM about it.
Or ask the GM if you can use the Alchemist dsicovery "Poison conversion" to convert it from untyped poison to inhaled or ingested. That is RAWs allowed since it just converts from "current type" to one of the four listed types.
Or just ask them if you can use it with that grit feat anyway since it is untyped, not magic at all, and created via your alchemy-it isn't a stretch to think that you could swing it that way.
It really is a absolutely lovely combo. and really I don't see an issue with it in general. But some folks are hardcore RAW.
side conversation concerning inhale stacking and doses:
I can't remember the exact wording.. but I know you can stack inhaled doses to boost the DC. I'm not sure if the new stacked is 1 dose.. or if it is one item with many doses.. but if it is 1 dose then you could get some crazy good DC by cranking out poisons, converting them, and stock pilling for once in a while... though kinda screwy
Oh.. and if you go with poison shot deed... Might I suggest a buckler gun? I think it has 2 chambers, so two shots.. Load that up in the morning and you can use your weapon all day long just fine then pop out a poison cone. Plus that means you start the day using your grit for something good.. so you can regain it easier.
-----------
I love Experimental Gunsmith. But it is of only some use in this build sadly. The DC for the launching part of the experimental gun is 1/2 gunslinger class, not character level etc.. But it will at least add INT to the DC of launched alchemical items.
Plus.. your not a gnome or a human with the racial archetype trick. So it isn't a choice.
I still vote Siege Gunner IF you decide you don't want Inspired swash buckler (Either you don't want that dip anymore, or you want a different weapon). IF you keep the inspired Swash, there are much more useful archetypes in gunslinger for your one dip.
----------
Grenadier alchemist isn't too bad. Though I don't find it terribly useful as you already dipped into Martial classes, so the proficiency bonus is mute. It does allow you to add alchemical items to attacks which is fun!
Tanglefoot, tangleburn and the big version, are great things to use with that.
Splash Weapons are fun too, but! Ask your GM if you'll gain the Int bonus on it. Why? Because the wording on the ability (see below) can be read two ways.
1: The splash weapon is consumed to give an effect to the weapon. but is not a splash weapon amymore
2: the splash weapon is consumed and is still a splash weapon.
The "consumes the alchemical item" line and the "alchemcial item takes full effect....but does not splash, spread" etc lines are the important bits. I've had GM's vote either way.
Though I personally think.. it says "alchemical item takes full effect" which means.. it is still in fact the alchemical item even though it was consumed. And in the weapon stat block of alchemical items, some items (like acid flask or alchemist's fire) specifically read "splash weapon" in the effects. So even when the area of effecti s removed it is still a "splash weapon" just with limiting factors. So as it is still techicnally a splash weapon, it should still gain INT to damage from the Alchemist's Throw Anything.
Alchemical Weapon (Su):
At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.
The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action.
This ability replaces poison resistance.
........Not sure what if any interaction poison shot and alchemical weapon might have... Huh... that is a weird case. I wonder if poison shot counts as being struck?
Poison shot does say.. Blast and take no damage. So you are being hit by the weapon..
I suppose gm territory. but it would be great to pop out a poison cone laced with goo or something.
toooled around a bit with my own build for another game..
Ended up with a (hopefully at some oin in the game ) build.:
Only built a few levels though..
Alchemist 2; Siege gunner 1, alchemist for the rest (Toxicant and Grenadier (I was going to go with the trap making one but we have a rogue)
Reason I took gunner at 3 (and lost the extra first level max hp) is that I am taking amature gunslinger feat. Why when I'm taking gunslinger later?
I am not exchanging the feat for the Extra grit. The wording is "can" I would rather only have 1 extra grit and get dead eye. Because Seige gunner replaces dead eye, but I want siege gunner for the int grit.
Feats (in no real order and only a few since it'l lbe a while before I'm high level) precise shot, (point blank shot as well but in my game it is non existant), ametur gunslinger (for deadeye and 1grit), poison shot deed, rapid reload extra discovery, weapon finesse (also doesn't exist in this game, but is an auto thing. but normally I would want it) could snag deadly aim instead as well if you plan to never get close.
Yeah.. not exactly a "shoot em all dead!" build. but this one is focused mainly on shooting explosive missle discoveries and other discoveries.
I have a pistol, and a dagger or rapier w/ slashing grace (would depend on my groups makeup), and a buckler gun.
The pistol and blade are the normal weapons, normal combat with them really. Might even just pick up a daggerpistol if I can later.
basic combat.. Nothing flashy this is more for.. I just want to fight this way it feels cool.
Poison bullets (either normal bullets or poison them and make alchemy shells). grenadier's alchemy item applied when able to as well. then adding explosive missile as I wish.
Toxicant's poison does Int damage, (i believe) int damage from the splash weapon, then the bomb damage.
Bonus benefit: loading the bullet is a free part of the explsovie msisle discovery. So you don't have to use a move action to reload or raise the misfire with alchemcical bullets.
It just feels like such a cool shot. Albiet it would be far smarter to do so with a musket at longer range.. but I can shoot pretty far here and there with the deadeye deed.
The buckler gun will always be filled with poison shot. POssibly (depends on gm and i'll ask that if I'm able to get a buckler gun) doing the inhale trick to stack a ton of my poison converted toxicant poison to raise the DC a bit. So I can on command 15ft cone of poison twice in a battle.
.
Is this super effective? Nope.. not really, though the poison can add some fun status effects.
but.. I just think it sounds and visually looks so cool.
I'm 100% sure I'll end up seeing a much better way when I actually play this character though.
Sorry for vanishing on you guys, unexpectedly mad weekend! That's some absolutely brilliant stuff, fair play.
The siege-gunner/alchemist approach is really interesting, fair play. not to mention that siege weapons themselves are all kinds of awesome. Situational, but awesome. Less dashing, which has become a cool character idea, but still funky. Hmm.
I'll have to give it some more thought when I'm not shattered!
As for the vestigal arms, I hadn't even considered them. I don't need them for reloading, the tail has me covered there. But the image of a four-armed and tailed tiefling wielding twin pistols and twin rapiers is actually kind of appealing. It's not an area of the rules I'm especially clear on, but my understanding would be - alchemist arms don't grant extra attacks, but could be used to dual wield both sets of weapons without having to ready/holster them?
Hum I'm actualy clueless on the arms bit.. I knw there are plenty of threads. I've just never loved multiarm thing so I never looked into the rules.
Siege gunner can use normal weapons just fine really. not that you'll have levels in it, but you can use scatter out of several different guns. (that ability to spend grit to give class lv damage on a target)
oh I do know how to get deadeye even though siege gunner gives it up.
Take siege gun later, and at some level before that, take Ameatur Gunslinger, taking Dead eye as the free 1st level deed.
Then when you take Siege Gunner do NOT free change it into extra grit.
that way you keep the deed and can use your pool as normal.
So effectively.. use a feat to get 1 grit and that touch ac past increment deed.
I do not have a chance to play this character and doesn't look like i will for a while..
but man that gunbuckler +daggerpistol one I made looks soo fun
Had a look at some of those arm threads and... yikes. Pretty sure my reading is right actually, as it's the less deadly reading - of course, maybe burning a feat and a discovery to avoid having to switch between guns and rapiers isn't the best idea, not to mention TWF.
But the campaign is going to have some kind of Numeria component, so a four-armed mutant is just a bit tasty.
I see what you're getting at with the amateur gunslinger feat. That's actually really, really handy for all sorts of builds. Nice one!
And yeah, gun-buckler and dagger-pistol is great visually and mechanically. Makes for a wicked engineer-type character. 'Course, there's a possibility the fact that the game's in Numeria could mean access to wackier technology...
Oh yeah. If you get accesss to highe tech stuff? or even the technology guide stuff?
all.. the amusing possiblities.
Some really cool stuff really. Cyber limb with a gun inside is somethign i have ALWAYS wanted in this sorta build. So i'm holding a knife (Probably the magic knife that adds to my poison DC) then randomly.. barrel pops out from the back of my hand and shoots a guy in the face haha.
Eldritch Heritage in that Nanite bloodline is pretty amusing for that idea concept. you have extra arms from bizzare nanite mutations.
Yeah, the technology stuff is awesome. When I graduate from GM-ing beginner box I'm totally running Iron Gods :D Not entirely sure how much tech access we'll get - the DM is being cagey, damn her. But she's said there'll be some tech at the very least.
Eldritch Heritage is always tempting, but in this case I'm not sure the mechanics really add enough to justify two feats...
probably not. though rather than the feat cost the ability points are more annoying to me. Unless you roll anyway.
I've nevef played iron Gods but I've rarely have gotten to play adventure path etc. usually most of my previous stuff has been home games with random bits included
Though I really do think a lot of the tech weapons take too much with concern to ammo etc.
LIke the cool ones anyway. Stun guns, Dart guns, they take charges and ammo, and thats a bit hard to run with; unless they're just buyable at the every day mart anyway.
Technologist should have probably been listed as "3rd level spells" instead of requiring arcane I think. Would've opened up a lot more
Oh the prestige class I mean
Yeah, I know what you mean with ammo and such. Not to mention timeworn. Seems like a lot of book-keeping and faff, though I suppose it stops them from completely overshadowing all the other weapons in the game.
And the technomancer prc is all of the lovely. I did consider some sort of Magus/Technomancer, possibly with the Myrmidarch archetype. Or maybe a Bloodrager, given the Kelid connection. Seems to make sense given the Technic League's love of weaponry, but I haven't got a clue how viable it'd be - I can't imagine it'd be better than going wizard.
Maybe something to consider if this character dies...
True enough, even if Inspired Blade does limit your options a tad. Mind you, I imagine most things are easier to get hold of than thousand year old alien power cells...
