This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
It doesn't stack. Period. It is specifically called out in the description of the spell.
|
It's clear that it doesn't stack with anything that increases the crit range. It's not clear that it doesn't stack with anything that increases the crit modifier.
While it clearly will always be a crit range of 19-20 under the effect of the spell, it's not clear that it would not be 19-20/x4 for a fifth level bolt ace or a 20th level fighter.
That said, It's clear RAI that it doesn't stack, especially when compared to a similar effect from a first level spell in bless weapon.
Yes, Aspect of the Falcon does not stack with anything that increases crit range. It will stack with the 5th level of bolt ace and the 20th level of fighter, allowing a 19-20/x4. It's not ambiguous in the slightest, it's spelled out right there in RAW, black and white.
[/thread]
I can see arguments either way. The base question is whether the critical property of a weapon (which consists of range and a multiplier) can be partially modified separately or whether it is an integral identity and modifying either part is a simple way to explain what you are doing, but in actually what you are changing is the 'critical' property of a weapon.
One the weapon table and descriptions, a weapons critical property is treated as a single thing, but spells feats etc. seem to be worded as if the two parts of a the critical property were completely separate.
Of course in most cases this is a difference without a distinction and it doesn't matter at all in practice. This is a corner case where it does.
Reference:
Improved Critical
Heavy Crossbow Crit: 19-20/×2
Light Crossbow Crit: 19-20/×2
Aspect of the Falcon
You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
The crossbow is normally 19-20/x2. Aspect of the Falcon makes it the same threat range and a higher multiplier, i.e. 19-20/x3.
The spell does not change the threat range at all, yet the referenced stacking effects all affect the threat range.
Keen and such change the threat range, but don't touch the multiplier.
RAW: This sets the multiplier only, and has no affect on the threat range. Works with Keen and such because it does not touch the threat range.
RAI: The author/editor of the spell did not pay attention, and meant you could get the spell or the keen effect but not both.
OP: You are following RAI, but that is not what is actually written.
/cevah
I disagree Cevah. I believe the line "This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon..." means that no part of Aspect of the Falcon stacks with any other effect that increases crit range. Even the Perception bonus wouldn't stack with keen.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I disagree Cevah. I believe the line "This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon..." means that no part of Aspect of the Falcon stacks with any other effect that increases crit range. Even the Perception bonus wouldn't stack with keen.
+1
This is generally explicitly done because a 19-20/x3 weapon is better than a 20x4 weapon. So they block additional threat range enhancement when they have upped the multiplier.
I agree with you both RAI, but the definition of "stacking" is relevant to things that affect the same thing. Threat Range is a different thing than Critical Multiplier. That is why I said RAW allows it.
/cevah
No, specifically RAW doesn't allow it. The spell says "This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon." It does not say "The crit range increase does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon." It says "This effect", ergo the entire effect of the spell, including the ranged bonus to hit, including the perception bonus. You can't even look like a falcon and wield a keen weapon.
The spell gives certain bonuses:
1) Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head.
2) You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks
3) You gain a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks
4) The critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
Note it states "critical multiplier" and not "critical multiplier and threat range". RAW, a bow would go from 20/x2 to 20/x3.
Keen gives you certain bonuses:
A) Double the threat range.
In order for the two to have something to stack, they need to affect the same thing. There is NO overlap in benefits, so there is nothing that can even be potentially stacked.
The RAW text allows this. RAI, I agree it should not be played this way.
/cevah
Ah, but it doesn't say "the same types of bonuses don't stack". It just says "This effect does not stack". "This effect" refers to the spell effect in its entirety.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
That is why I said RAW allows it.
I can't articulate to you in words how strongly I believe you are wrong.
To put succinctly, in my view the RAW is absolutely crystal clear that you can not stack Improved Critical in any way at all with Aspect of the Falcon.
Table Variance is a thing and as a result I accept your version of RAW as valid, it isn't my version of RAW
|
Personally, I would rule it as thus:
-Things like Keen and Improved Critical (i.e. things that modify your crit range) absolutely do not work with the spell during its duration. Just because an effect gives a +0 modifier does not necessarily mean the effect isn't... well... in effect. The spell says "We set it to 19-20 x3". That is an effect even if it doesn't necessarily change the crit range from the base value. Things that increase the crit range are then trying to stack in some way or another with the crit range given by the spell which is explicitly not allowed to happen.
Think of this hypothetical situation: say we are a medium humanoid creature. We also have a polymorph spell that simply says "You turn into a medium humanoid creature" that we cast on ourselves. Just because the spell didn't actually change anything doesn't mean that spell isn't in effect. It's simply transforming us from what were before into what we already were. Now we decide to cast a different polymorph spell on ourselves (say something that made us large). The CRB states:
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."
RAW states that you would still have to decide whether the new polymorph overwrites the old one. Just because the first polymorph didn't change anything, doesn't mean you can keep it "on" with the second polymorph in effect. You cannot have both effects stack. So now we extend this hypothetical back to our crossbows and Falcon's Aim. The spell says that it puts the crit stats to "19-20 x3". Just because the "19-20" isn't being actually changed from the base stats does not mean it is not still being effected, and so therefore effects that increase the crit range will not stack/go into effect.
-Things that change the multiplier to x4 or something along those lines would work because the spell specifically only calls out the threat range as not stacking, and then gives two different examples of effects that only effect range.
@Archaeik:
OK, I misread the table. RAW, the spell does nothing for the bow.
To put succinctly, in my view the RAW is absolutely crystal clear that you can not stack Improved Critical in any way at all with Aspect of the Falcon.
Nor do I say that.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Improved Critical does one thing, and one thing only: increase the threat range. That is a bonus to the threat range.
Aspect of the Falcon does several things:1) Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. -- not a bonus to the threat range, so it stacks.
2) You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks -- not a bonus to the threat range, so it stacks.
3) You gain a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks -- not a bonus to the threat range, so it stacks.
4) The critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3. -- here is the problem.
Does the text "" mean that only the critical multiplier is changed or that the threat range is also changed. It seems clear to me it is only referring to the critical multiplier. Now it gets complicated by the example "", which is a combined threat range and critical multiplier expression. Does this override the text immediately preceding it that only talks of the multiplier or not. Several here are arguing that it does, while I say it does not.
If it does not, then this is not a bonus to the threat range, so it stacks.
So the spell might, might, be read as giving you an increased threat range. For the sake of argument, lets say it does. What happens when Improved Critical comes into play. [Or Keen, or ...]
The spell's mentioned threat range is double the range of a bow, but the same as a crossbow. Improved Critical is always double the threat range.
Not stacking means the you get the best of the choices, which is the best of (same or double) and (double), which is strictly (double).
Thus if both are in play, bows go to 19-20/x3 and crossbows go to 17-20/x3.
To say that you get one effect or the other based on the fact polymorph spells have a special rule does not make sense. Improved Critical is not even a spell, Keen weapon property is not a spell either, and the Keen spell, although transmutation, is not a polymorph spell, so the rule of two polymorph spells interacting does not enter into the discussion.
If they did stack, you would get 19-20/x3 (or 18-20/x3 if you read it like some do) for bows, and 15-20/x3 for crossbows, since a doubled double is a triple for stacking. I do not claim this at all.
Thus, no stacking still gives you all the benefits of the spell with the bow/crossbow at doubled threat range and x3 critical multiplier.
/cevah
Cevah, your analysis would be very strong if the spell said "Similar bonuses do not stack" or "Effects that effect the same thing do not stack". The spell does not say that. It says "This effect", where "this" is referring to the entirety of the spell. You're not even allowed to stack keen with the ability to have feathers on your head.
If you have aspect of the falcon active and you pick up a keen weapon or have a similar effect, only one is taken into the account. The other is completely ignored. As per the description of "This effect does not stack". Not "This effect does not stack unless it's on a crossbow".
Table variance is different from houserules. How cohorts are run is table variance. What Cevah is saying is a houserule.
I'll agree with "Expect Table Variance" and "Bad author/editor, bad, bad". It's poorly worded.
My personal read is the same as cevah. A +1 luck to hit and +3 luck to damage effect doesn't stack with a +2 luck bonus to hit and damage effect but the end result is a +2 luck bonus to hit and a +3 luck bonus to damage. Each bonus is checked separately and not as a block. Threat range and crit multiplier are different things to be checked.
Bottom line for me is a bless spell doesn't turn off in it's entirety when the barbarian rages even though the save bonuses don't stack vs fear. If the intent of Aspect of the Falcon was that the whole thing is linked then it's a failure on craft: RPG.
CampinCarl9127: I would strongly disagree that it's a house-rule. I see nothing that links the two parts of the crit making them one thing for stacking rules. In fact, things link the improved critical feats only talk about RANGE stacking and say nothing of multiplier. Do you only allow bless OR rage to apply? This seems more like a RAI ve RAW than anyone pulling out a houserule.
No, you're saying that "Same types of bonuses don't stack", which is true. However for this spell it specifically states that the effects of the spell (all of the effects) do not stack with anything that expands crit range.
Also, do you really want to buff aspect of the falcon? The developers have already admitted that the spell is way too powerful for the spell level it is at, not even considering the fact that there's a really cheap item that grants it permanently (and it has been banned in organized play). Do you really want level 3 characters running around with 17-20/x3 without even a magical weapon under their belts? Or honestly, a level 2 character could buy a pair of scrolls and have it temporarily.
No, you're saying that "Same types of bonuses don't stack", which is true. However for this spell it specifically states that the effects of the spell (all of the effects) do not stack with anything that expands crit range.
Except that stacking is explicitly for single things, not groups of things. See the text I cited that defines stacking. Cite me some text that treats stacking as a group of things, and I might change my mind.
Also, do you really want to buff aspect of the falcon? The developers have already admitted that the spell is way too powerful for the spell level it is at, not even considering the fact that there's a really cheap item that grants it permanently (and it has been banned in organized play). Do you really want level 3 characters running around with 17-20/x3 without even a magical weapon under their belts? Or honestly, a level 2 character could buy a pair of scrolls and have it temporarily.
All valid in a RAI context. Irrelevant in a RAW context like this rules forum.
/cevah
The wording is right in the spell.
You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
It doesn't say "crit range expansions does not stack", it just says "this effect".
The wording is right in the spell.
It doesn't say "crit range expansions does not stack", it just says "this effect".You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
Singular. Which "effect" is "this effect"? It does not say "these effects" which is plural, like you were implying earlier.
I see these effects:
1) You take on an aspect of a falcon.
2) Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and
3) you grow feathers on the sides of your head.
4) You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks,
5) a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and
6) the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
/cevah
The effect of the spell.
Edit: Also I want to just mention how much I respect you Cevah. About 98% of the time I agree with you, but more importantly than that you are always calm and respectful, even when somebody is strongly disagreeing with you.
So the spell has a "bonus" effect for stacking purposes of [1,2,3,4,5,6]. The feat has an "bonus" effect of [threat range increase]. These are not the same "bonus" type, thus by stacking rules, they stack.
Right.
Try again.
EDIT: Thanks. I know I sometime take to arguing points to extremes, but I try to keep it to what can be backed up. Works the same in real life.
/cevah
And that is where we disagree. I say "this effect" refers to the effects of the spell since it comes after all of the effects and doesn't specify any individual parts of it. You think it only applies to the increase crit range. It's the old "general vs specific" argument, and I think this is one of the specific cases.
I could see it being read the other way. Regardless of that, the spell is already insanely powerful and I don't intend to ever give it another buff.
And clearly, a creature cannot benefit from both an extra action from Inspiring Assault and the AC bonus from haste at the same time, because the effects don't stack.
Wait a minute. That isn't how stacking works at all. Huh.
It seems clear to me that when two abilities do completely different things at the same time, that's not "stacking." But I guess I get how others might see differently.
Except haste specifically states that only the extra attack does not stack.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
After the bolded portion (where they specify what doesn't stack with other certain abilities) they list the rest of the effects of haste. In this spell they specifically call out what abilities don't stack.
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
Critical threat is a different "particular check or statistic" than critical multiplier. This is shown by thing being able to modify one and not the other like Improved Critical. Stacking ONLY effects bonuses or penalties on one thing at a time. So only to hit, or damage or crit multiplier or crit threat range or will saves or...
The only way that stacking would happen in this case is if something in the feat linked threat range and multiplier into a single check or statistic. Something would have to be called out and it isn't. Stacking can't be applied to a whole effect, only a "particular check or statistic" without a new ruling.
In the case of the crossbow, the spell doesn't have ANY effect on the threat range of the crossbow as it stayed 19-20. Nothing stops something from taking that unmodified threat range and altering it as it's unmodified. Nothing has added of subtracted from the crossbow threat range to get a penalty or bonus to check for stacking.
Thank you for the quote graystone.
Not only is it a general rule, it even mentions ("Generally speaking") that there are going to be cases that fall outside of it.
Aspect of the falcon describes "this effect" ambiguously. Some people can read it as only the crit range expansion and thus it's possible to stack it with keen. But due to the comparison to haste and the fact that RAW write how sometimes only certain aspects of spells stack while others don't and they fail to make that distinction on aspect of the falcon, I read "this effect" as meaning "the spell effect". If they only wanted part of the spell to not stack with keen, they would have specified so (such as they did in haste). But they do not, ergo no part of aspect of the falcon stacks with keen.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I personally don't know of any "stacking rule" section, so I would like to see the citation as well.
The problem is, just like the FAQ on Temporary Ability bonuses explained that the rules were not all inclusive, the stacking rules are not all inclusive.
So whenever a RAW debated comes down to "stacking rules", then the pedantic incorrect way to understand the rules is to look at the stacking rules and exclude non-spell effects, non-numerical bonus effects, etc.
Which is exactly what Cevah is doing.
Doing so ignores context and that the rules are written in a conversational way. Doing so requires an FAQ clarifying doing so is wrong. Which allows anyone to assert "I"m following RAW". But it isn't the RAW as clearly understood by countless previous developer posts in Pathfinder and 3.5 WotC. But truly following RAW isn't a big thing. It's hip to follow fake RAW.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
The Aspect of the Falcon spell does not stack with or function while under the effects of Improved Critical. So the X2 to X3 upgrade does not happen following the understood RAW.
I'm ok with the concept of Table Variance if you follow a pedantic reading of the RAW ignoring context.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
you seem to be declaring that the spell has a secondary rule stating that it "does not function while under the effects of Improved Critical."
I'm saying it does what it says it does, not stack with Improved Critical.
Let me be blunt, there would be absolutely no discussion of this point at any table I'm playing or GM. If I'm a player and someone didn't take "they don't stack" and the GM didn't reject that, I'd excuse myself from the table. If I'm a GM, I'd excuse the player asserting it works from the table. Clear enough?
I agree that an X3 critical and a 17-20 critical don't need to 'stack' to work together; they're separate things.
Let crossbow users have something nice for a change.