Does a negative cha bonus lower Lay On Hands uses?


Rules Questions


If I have to ask then the answer is probably the one I don't want to find, but I have to ask anyway. One of my teammates is running a dwarf paladin. Charisma below 10 obviously. Can he use Lay On Hands at level 2 or does he have effectively 0 uses? (1/2level = 1 -1 from cha = 0)


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Unless it there is some errata I don't know about, there is nothing that grants the minimum of 1 use. Sadly, there is no lay on hands for said PC until they have enough levels to overcome the negative charisma bonus.

Low charisma also affects smite, and prevents spellcasting. That is a PC that should definitely look into gaining charisma somehow.


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If it says Bonus, it ignores negatives (see divine grace wording. If it says Modifier, it uses the value weather positive or negative.(lay on hands is included). Sorry for your teammate, but it will impact that ability.


I would say yes, because I remember a while back the I came across a question about about the int modifier affecting how many additional skill ranks a character gets every time they lvl up. If they had a positive int modifier they got additional skill ranks, but if it was a negative int modifier they lost skill ranks each based on the negative. I think lay on hands would work the same way.

My only question is why does someone who is playing a paladin even have a negative charisma modifier. Charisma is the bread and butter to a paladin's abilities. It affects not only their lay on hands, it also affects their smites, spell casting, saving throws and so on. You take negatives to all of them with a negative charisma modifier.

Is there anyway for him to reroll/redo his stats. Or take another class that favors his particle sit of stats. If not I don't see his character lasting very much or being much use to his party. The only other option I see him doing is if he takes the stonelord paladin archetype. Since his character is a dwarf he should qualify for it. It could off set some of the penalties he will be taking to his abilities for having a negative charisma modifier.


Rathendar wrote:
If it says Bonus, it ignores negatives (see divine grace wording. If it says Modifier, it uses the value weather positive or negative.(lay on hands is included). Sorry for your teammate, but it will impact that ability.

The exact wording in the lay on hands ability for a paladin.

Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier

Based on this a negative charisma modifier would take away some of the uses of a paladin's lay on hands ability


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Maybe he does have the Stonelord archetype? That archetype does not replace Lay On Hands, but it does replace many of the other charisma-dependent class features.


It does say Charisma Modifier, so yes, he loses uses. A paladin really wants a positive charisma. If he hasn't played it much you could let him reassign a better score to charisma if he has one in dexterity or wisdom, but he still takes the -2 CHA for being a Dwarf. One of the main benefits of the Stonelord Archetype is that it doesn't suffer much from low charisma (aside from lay on hands and elemental channel uses).


I'm wondering why he even chose Paladin if he was going to have a negative Charisma. A Paladin without a positive Charisma modifier is basically a Fighter with fewer abilities and fewer feats. They get no use out of pretty much all of their class features. So no Smite Evil, no Divine Grace, no Lay on Hands (until a certain point much delayed), and no Spells.

Either he should reconsider his stat layout, or if that is not possible should reconsider the choice of Paladin as his class. They should perhaps get a free change to being a Fighter instead, or if that is also not possible start taking Fighter levels ASAP. I just don't get it. Reading ANYTHING about the Paladin class screams "have a positive Charisma modifier"! Were they unaware of what they were doing?

That said, even with racial penalties, even if I were a Dwarf I would make sure to have a positive Charisma modifier to start with, as a Paladin. It is doable, too.


Yeah, stonelords do make one heck of a wall. My group is playing rise of the runelords right now. One of our characters is a stonelord paladin. He basically has full plate mail on along with a tower shield. Our group right now is around lvl 9 and he can easily get his ac to over 30. This combined with the fact he has a ton of hp basically makes it to where he doesn't have to use his lay on hands hardly. The only flaw I see with his character is that he did not build his character with reach in mind. If your gonna be a wall, why not a wall with reach. I myself play a regular paladin with a special mount with a couple of oaths thrown in.


Worth mentioning in case the OP is used to 3.5: you know that paladin spells now also use charisma, yes?

I know he is probably running stonelord and thus not using spells, but just clearing that up as I've had players turn up with high WIS pallies thinking they needed it for spells.


Indeed he's made a stonelord, so no divine grace and no spells, so LOH is the only thing left on cha. I'm also playing one, but I took the effort to at least get the cha modifier to 0. Stats were rolled, unless the GM agreed to a different approach for him.

Funny thing there:
He's also a divine guardian, so no detect evil..
And there's an ANTIpaladin in the group..well frankly a house-ruled LN antipaladin-based dread vanguard stonelord (also houseruled to paint those dread vanguard abilities over what stonelord would otherwise take up). Represents more of a "wrath of god" than an unholy destroyer..but even without the evil part in his alignment the aura is still there..and the LG stonelord doesn't have detect evil..he has no idea :D and the GM didn't even twitch when I used ToC right in front of him when the player missed a session and had to be NPCed for continuity (we all got caught in a net and I was using a reach weapon at the time), so he has no idea :)


If this is a home-brew game, the GM can certainly base his CHA-pally abilities on WIS instead.

(And aren't there traits or feats that sub one attribute for another?)


I bet he could use one of those, but I doubt there are any that substitute stats for class abilities.


StDrake wrote:
I bet he could use one of those, but I doubt there are any that substitute stats for class abilities.

No, you sub the stat the ability depends on - like CHA for WIS, or INT for CHA, things like that.

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